Captain America: Civil War (Post-release)

[dascoyne]

While I agree it is a tragedy, I dont see Tony in the same light as you do. While of course its tragic that Bucky killed his parents, when he was explaining how the kid got killed, and he was talking about Sokovia... That was entirely his fault. He created Ultron, who was directly responsible for all of that.

Let me be clear. Everything I've written is essentially from Tony's point of view. Keep that in mind. I'm on team Cap but my point is that Tony's actions are entirely relatable.

I think Tony sees Ultron as his fault entirely and a great example of how well intentioned individuals given limitless power can cause catastrophe just as he has. Everybody, at some point, might think to themselves that they know better than the world what's best. That would be an argument FOR some sort of regulation in his book. I think Tony sees the Accord as a flawed but necessary first step that would take the political heat off The Avengers and give them a way to form something more constructive.

And did Tony even realize that he recruited a 15 year old kid to come and fight with him? Granted the kid that died in Sokovia was older, but cmon. Its like he is trying to rectify past mistakes, but he doesnt see them through properly. "Im going to avenge this kid by setting things right, so Im going to get this other kid to help me do it" He didnt know that things could have turned south and someone could have accidentally got killed. What if Vision blasted Spidey instead of War Machine? Speaking of that, think that he did that because he was mad at him for hurting Wanda? And he didnt just miss trying to hit Falcon?

It's admittedly a contrivance to bring the new Spidey into the MCU. That being said, remember, the intent wasn't to beat down their opponent. Spidey has a very effective "less than lethal" means of controlling a situation where they're clearly outmanned. The Vision doesn't count as an asset because he's simply too lethal for this encounter. Tony is trying to stop his friends - he's not trying to kill them. A guy who slings webs sounds about ideal for this task. Still, it's mostly a contrivance to bring Spidey into the MCU - but I'm buying it.

I dont see Steves view as being reckless, but its having their hands tied.

I agree entirely. But I'm just saying that, given Tony's perspective, almost any argument Cap makes actually convinces him even more that Cap is wrong.

Thats why I loved the writers speech for Spidey, it summed up his origin in a few words. Being able to do something, and not doing it, when bad things happen, its your fault. Or something along those lines, I dont remember the line exactly lol.

Spidey's entire back story in those words was simply brilliant. The writers didn't even have Tony say "I'm going to build you a better suit" or have Parker explain how he made the webbing at all. That shows how much confidence they have in their writing.

I thought Tony was just being a ****** when he said the "you dont deserve that shield" line.

That's what I thought at first but later I could see how he could actually mean it. It was, after all, a gift from his father as well as once being a symbol for patriotism. A man who defends a fugitive who killed his father and even fights him with that shield clearly (from Tony's perspective) doesn't deserve the shield.

I think the theme was apparent as to why Cap was defending Buck, not just because he was his best friend, but he didnt have a choice.

Justice ought to be applied evenly across the board. Certainly Bucky does afford more than his share of protection from Cap for being his friend - and that's not exactly an even application of justice. I think Steve is aware of this - he's usually sacrificing himself for the greater good. In this case I think he's knowingly doing something for himself - protecting a childhood friend. I don't think that's necessarily wrong but it's a choice that makes him human and flawed. Maybe that's the point in the "there's a little green in the blue of your eye" comment by Zemo.

 

[Snikt]

I never felt Tony recruiting Spiderman was a big deal, at the time it was just for the intimidation factor, the fight at the airport wasn't to the death, and when it did get serious he sent him home.

I thought he recruited him because not only could he hold his own with his abilities, but because he has a way to non lethally subdue people (webs). Nobody "knew" it wasnt to the death. I mean, the audience does, but the characters didnt. I still thought War Machine should have died but... whatevs.


Good response Dascoyne, I didnt realize that you were saying your earlier response from Tonys perspective. Busy day at work and I didnt realize when I read it. Thanks for touching/clarifying on your responses so eloquently. Regarding the last thing you said, I think even Bucky knows that justice should be applied because he even says "yeah but I did them" after Cap said it wasnt his choice. Good call. Not only is it his childhood friend, he is the only guy that he can relate to, and the only thing from his past life that remains. Thats also a good call about the flawed comment by Zemo. Damn man, you made me see things I didnt even see before. I need to watch this movie again. Good analysis. Im still team cap though.

 

[Father]

What about v for vendetta? Road to perdition? A history of violence? Swamp thing?
DC has been in this game a LOT longer than marvel.
The thing that makes DC a much better comic company for me is that marvel has never had any big sophisticated graphic novels. Marvel never had a dark knight returns, watchman or a sandman. Even their secret wars series was just a pale imitation of crisis on infinite earths

Marvel is more interested in monthly pulp stories. And no one EVER stays dead in the marvel universe.

Sent from my SM-N910W8 using Tapatalk

None of those are really examples of continuous running DCU titles or characters that they're trying to do en extended franchise of sequels with. They're all one-offs... without checking all of them I think most are under Vertigo.
Most people probably don't even associate some those as something that was based on a comic. Certainly not History of Violence of Road to Perdition.
Swamp Thing? I wouldn't hold that up to current Marvel films. The only redeeming thing about that movie was Adrienne Barbeau's performance (between her waist and her neck).

No one ever stays dead in any comic universe. DC is no less guilty than Marvel. Jason Todd. Superman. Green Arrow. Hal Jordan.

DC is better at TV.
DC is better at animated shows and movies.

Marvel is better at taking characters unknown to people that don't read comics and making them into household names.
DC has Batman, Superman, and arguably Wonder Woman. They've been running the first two for generations. No doubt household names.
Every movie Marvel has done has made fans of non-comic book readers, Iron Man being the most notable.

 

[TKRalph]

Vision could have taken on Team Cap by himself maybe cause of his god-like abilities and Mind Stone on him.

 

[Father]

I've been on Cap's side from the start (and I still am) but it's only because I have the privilege of knowing Cap's arc and character since TFA.

But Civil War really put Tony through the wringer. He approaches Steve in all sincerity and respect with the Sokovia Accords - recognizing that, given his own record of reckless behavior despite his good intentions, that you can't rely on only yourself to be purely objective. Some form of oversight is therefore necessary. Steve's argument just comes across as an excuse to remain reckless. They both accept that UN control isn't ideal but they can make their own change from the inside after signing the Accords. Tony is right that they would have more leverage to shape the relationship if they cooperated from the start. If the Accords were enforced on them then they'd have no ability to negotiate whatsoever.

From Tony's perspective, everything that Steve says and does after that appears both naïve and hypocritical (given where Steve's ideology started in The Avengers). That Bucky killed Tony's parents is just the nail in the coffin. Until then Tony has put aside his natural smarminess and laid his life bare to Steve when he appealed to keep The Avengers viable and this moment was just the final insult. Of course he's going to call Steve on his hypocrisy - "You don't deserve that shield."

How much can a guy take? Tony's entire messed up life and his arrested boyhood (e.g. can't keep relationship together with Potts and he gets along with kids better than with most adults (c.f. Iron Man 3 and the fact that he feels so much in common with another smart orphan in Queens) ) can all be traced to unresolved issues with his dad and his martyred mom. I doesn't matter that Bucky may or may not have been brainwashed from his perspective but I don't blame him for snapping. Everything conspired to bring Tony to a breaking point.

This movie is such an expertly balanced tragedy.

Stark is projecting his guilt on the team. Cap accept that there are going to be non-combatant casualties in battles/wars. You can save the world, but not everyone on it.
Stark comes off as Stark... arrogant, one-sided, and uncompromising (even when he thinks he is). He sounds more like a politician than someone than a hero. He tells Cap "Just sign it now, we can make changes to it later". That sounds like something that should be coming out of the mouth of a senator.

They can have oversight from within. Stark didn't put the Ultron plan to a vote with the team. Why? Because he knew they would all be against it. So he did what he wanted. His actions are the biggest reason for the Sokovia Accords and his own personal guilt. That's not on the Avengers. He should be singled out and held personally accountable and if he had any real integrity he would have done that instead of throwing his whole team under the bus for covering his arse. Tony is a great character. He's hard not to like but he gives people every reason to hate him.

NYC... S.H.I.E.L.D. (a government agency... and Hydra) being the main cause for that by messing with the Tesseract. The Avengers cleaning up someone else's mess, although at that point they were recruited by S.H.I.E.L.D., but the world counsel was read to nuke the city. Would they have spun a huge crate where Manhattan was as being the Avenger's fault too?

I have a hard time understanding how there's even a choice between Team Cap and Team Stark. I guess it's like voting for or against gun "rights" though.

 

[dascoyne]

Stark is projecting his guilt on the team. Cap accept that there are going to be non-combatant casualties in battles/wars. You can save the world, but not everyone on it.
Stark comes off as Stark... arrogant, one-sided, and uncompromising (even when he thinks he is). He sounds more like a politician than someone than a hero. He tells Cap "Just sign it now, we can make changes to it later". That sounds like something that should be coming out of the mouth of a senator.

Absolutely. That Tony doesn't see this only speaks to his characteristic hubris.

They can have oversight from within. Stark didn't put the Ultron plan to a vote with the team. Why? Because he knew they would all be against it. So he did what he wanted. His actions are the biggest reason for the Sokovia Accords and his own personal guilt. That's not on the Avengers. He should be singled out and held personally accountable and if he had any real integrity he would have done that instead of throwing his whole team under the bus for covering his arse. Tony is a great character. He's hard not to like but he gives people every reason to hate him.

Yep. That's all on Tony. His view is pretty much: "I accept that I can't be trusted with power - therefore you can't be trusted with power."

NYC... S.H.I.E.L.D. (a government agency... and Hydra) being the main cause for that by messing with the Tesseract. The Avengers cleaning up someone else's mess, although at that point they were recruited by S.H.I.E.L.D., but the world counsel was read to nuke the city. Would they have spun a huge crate where Manhattan was as being the Avenger's fault too?

As IRL the public (and hence the politicians) are more selective about their memory and the facts. The Accords are a reactionary measure borne of emotion not unlike (ahem) many Gun Control laws.

I have a hard time understanding how there's even a choice between Team Cap and Team Stark. I guess it's like voting for or against gun "rights" though.

I don't disagree with you there. That was the first thing that came to mind when I read the comics.

"I can't be trusted with power - therefore you can't be trusted with power" doesn't fly with me.

Team cap all the way.

 

[JD]

The whole movie would've been over a lot sooner had Tony and Cap just realized both of their best friends were named James.

 

[Seabass]

anybody see this?



the right is Sebastian Stan photoshopped in Mark Hamill's place. pretty freaky resemblance

 

[joshvanrad]

anybody see this?

View attachment 623938

the right is Sebastian Stan photoshopped in Mark Hamill's place. pretty freaky resemblance

There has to be a little bit of photoshop magic on that to rework his facial proportions.

If there isn't, cloning is very real and Mark Hamill was the first test subject.

 

[Seabass]

yea theres some watermark there that sounds like a morphing software, but its still uncanny

 

[Treadwell]

There has to be a little bit of photoshop magic on that to rework his facial proportions.

If there isn't, cloning is very real and Mark Hamill was the first test subject.

Behold

 

[joshvanrad]

That's what I figured.

 

[Father]

Behold

So much for the magic and uncanny likeness. Boo.

 

[Snikt]

So much for the magic and uncanny likeness. Boo.

The internet can simultaneously be awesome and a bummer.

 

[TheNickFox]

One thing I haven't seen posted - and may have missed earlier in the thread - is Tony's recreation of the last time he saw his parents. Whatever method they used to make young Tony looked absolutely perfect. I thought young Michael Douglas was done well in Ant Man, but this was even better.

Any time you see any age effects done the answer is Lola FX.

They are an effects house that got their start by doing tons of work they can never take credit for. Why? Because it involved removing 5-10 years from aging actresses in movies which wouldn't traditionally require visual effects.

They have done everything from a young (freaky looking) Patrick Stewart and Ian McKellan in X-Men 3, aging up Haley Attwell in The Winter Soldier, and just about any other time someone looked older or younger than they were.

There is a distinct advantage when it comes to de-aging people like Michael Douglas or RDJ: there is a TON of video and picture reference of them at their target ages to match every little crease.

...oh and they STILL take a few lines off the faces of aging actresses, but they are still no closer to getting credit for that.

Fun sidenote on that point: for years their reel only included spec work that they had done on their own employees since they couldn't very well show Diane Keaton (One of the actresses rumored to use their services) and go "look how young we made her look! But don't tell anyone!"

-Nick

 

[CPTRogers]

Didn't they do skinny cap too? From tfa

 

[TKRalph]

So The Joint Counter Terrorism Center pretty much replaced S.H
I.E.L.D?

 

[Snikt]

Any time you see any age effects done the answer is Lola FX.

They are an effects house that got their start by doing tons of work they can never take credit for. Why? Because it involved removing 5-10 years from aging actresses in movies which wouldn't traditionally require visual effects.

They have done everything from a young (freaky looking) Patrick Stewart and Ian McKellan in X-Men 3, aging up Haley Attwell in The Winter Soldier, and just about any other time someone looked older or younger than they were.

There is a distinct advantage when it comes to de-aging people like Michael Douglas or RDJ: there is a TON of video and picture reference of them at their target ages to match every little crease.

...oh and they STILL take a few lines off the faces of aging actresses, but they are still no closer to getting credit for that.

Fun sidenote on that point: for years their reel only included spec work that they had done on their own employees since they couldn't very well show Diane Keaton (One of the actresses rumored to use their services) and go "look how young we made her look! But don't tell anyone!"

-Nick

Personally I prefer the make up route vs computer effects when making someone look older. When they did it to Peggy in Winter Soldier, it looked pretty bad. The make up route would have been way better, people have been making people older via make up for decades. Making them younger however, works well on the computer. They still look a little plastic, but better than the make up route. The effects you mentioned in X3 were god awful. Just like the rest of the movie, but Patrick Stewart actually made me go "whoa!" :lol

 

[TheNickFox]

Personally I prefer the make up route vs computer effects when making someone look older. When they did it to Peggy in Winter Soldier, it looked pretty bad. The make up route would have been way better, people have been making people older via make up for decades. Making them younger however, works well on the computer. They still look a little plastic, but better than the make up route. The effects you mentioned in X3 were god awful. Just like the rest of the movie, but Patrick Stewart actually made me go "whoa!" :lol

I think X3 was actually their first time doing such a significant de-aging and I think were a bit unsure of how smooth to make things... and might even be their first time they were publicly credited for their work.

Clearly their reputation preceded itself because if THAT was the only reference we had, no one would have ever hired them ever again. haha

De-aging in general just gives you MUCH better results since there are no reference images of any of us from the future. :lol

Didn't they do skinny cap too? From tfa

It's VERY likely, but I don't know offhand. It definitely seems in their wheelhouse.

-Nick

 

[dascoyne]

The one positive thing about having a hot aunt May is that it makes the possibility of her hooking up with a Doc Oc much more plausible and (slightly) less creepy.