Camile Paglia on ROTS: "most significant work of art in any genre...[in 30 years]""

Re: Camile Paglia on ROTS: "most significant work of art in any genre...[in 30 years]

Soooo....you all realize that Paglia has in essence made her entire career by being outspoken and controversial, right? She's a shameless self-promoter, speaks primarily in incendiary rhetoric, and, back in my day, loved to **** off intellectuals (particularly militant feminists). You are all waaaaaay over thinking this - relax, it's what she does.
 
Re: Camile Paglia on ROTS: "most significant work of art in any genre...[in 30 years]

This is also why I don't trust "academics" who spend most of their time advertising their latest work.

That said, I know she delights in tweaking the noses of this or that bit of the establishment, but there's a difference between that and just being flat-out wrong and sounding like an idiot.


Look, if I went round arguing that NO ARTISTIC WORK IN ANY MEDIUM IN THE LAST 30 YEARS approaches the cinematic genius of Gangs of New York, people would rightly deride me. Even though there are things about the film which are good, even though reasonable people may enjoy the work as a whole, to make a claim like that not only ignores the flaws in the film, but also ignores great swaths of artistic work in a multitude of media, genres, etc.

That's not being "controversial." Controversy implies that there is a valid if unusual argument to be made. There is no valid argument that Revenge of the Sith is THE GREATEST ARTISTIC WORK OF THE LAST 30 YEARS IN ANY MEDIUM INCLUDING LITERATURE. So, no, she's not being "controversial." She's just being an idiot for attention. She might as well stand on a street corner, smashing raw eggs against her head, demanding that pedestrians give her a dollar. It'd have about the same merit as her statements in the video I saw.
 
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Re: Camile Paglia on ROTS: "most significant work of art in any genre...[in 30 years]

I glanced through her book while at B&N this afternoon. It's amazing the number of outright ignorant comments and slams that have been leveled at the Paglia here on the RPF. Unllike any of us (most likely, at least) is not an accomplished professor, writer and recognized critic. A critic whose giving an educated assessment - doesn't mean you have to agree with it.

The amount of venom and outright name calling shown on the RPF is just shamefully disgusting... and just igorant. Some of us here really need to get a grip and stop attacking someone they don't know and someone who isn't defending themselves, and they're making those attacks based on limited reference.

Paglia backs up her case in detail in her book. She's doesn't appear to be some fangirl sucking up to Lucas... she's 65 and has already accomplished everything she's probably set out to.
 
Re: Camile Paglia on ROTS: "most significant work of art in any genre...[in 30 years]

If this is what she says in the book, then I stand by my previous assessment.

Bold assertions made with flowery language don't equate to an argument.


I'll say this, though. The brilliance of Paglia's position is that anyone who agrees with her is part of the "inner circle" of wise people. But those who disagree with her are merely the myopic slaves of the establishment, whose minds just can't expand enough to see the plain truth of her statements.

Lastly, on the subject of credentials, I ain't impressed. Just because you have multiple degrees doesn't mean you can't still say stupid crap. Some people do that for a living, actually.

It's a nice racket if you can find an audience for yourself. I note that she says she spends a lot of time listening to AM radio. Looks like she was taking notes on technique. Say... Maybe there's an art form in there somewhere... Maybe some day, another enterprising celebrity art critic will discuss how Paglia's work was the single greatest work of the art of trolling seen in the last 50 years.
 
Re: Camile Paglia on ROTS: "most significant work of art in any genre...[in 30 years]

I glanced through her book while at B&N this afternoon.
In most stores I frequent there will be the inevitable "buy or get out!"

If you bought... then her sales ploy certainly worked on you. Hell... even garbage as Twilight sells by the millions... doesn't alter the fact that it is garbage. Sometimes people just like garbage.
 
Re: Camile Paglia on ROTS: "most significant work of art in any genre...[in 30 years]

A lot of flame for someone's opinion no?
 
Re: Camile Paglia on ROTS: "most significant work of art in any genre...[in 30 years]

Whose? JD's? Not at all. I mean, I disagree with him, but I'm not trying to attack him.

Paglia's? Absofreakinlutely. Mostly because she's presenting herself as an authority on the subject, and then is saying, well, what she's saying. You put yourself out there in so vehement a fashion, and make such a bold (and I'd say foolish) claim, you better have your flame retardant underwear on.

What I object to is not simply that she's wrong. I mean, whatever. People make incorrect statements all the time. Doesn't really matter to me. No, what I object to is that she makes these statements, and then uses the cover of her education and accolades to convince people that her statements aren't, in fact, wrong. As I said, if the bit I linked to is her argument.....it's not actually an argument. It's just a series of flowery assertions mixed in with a biography of Lucas.


She's offering more than "just an opinion," too. She's offering an AUTHORITATIVE opinion. We should be convinced by her because she speaks with authority. She's falling back on the old "baffle 'em with bulls**t" technique, and TRUST ME, I should know. I do this for a living. ;)


I guess what really pisses me off about what she's doing is twofold. First, she's just making loud assertions without actually bothering to craft an argument in support of those assertions. If you're gonna put some work of art on a pedestal, it would at least make sense to say why it is THE best work in the last 30 years, and to support that by, say, comparing its merits to other works across media and generes, and then explaining why it's better than them. Might also help if you lay out what your criteria are on the front end, so we can see how the argument itself proceeds without having to wonder "Wait. What exactly does she think 'art' is?"

Second, it's the assertion of authority alone as the grounds to be convinced. I mean, yeah, the irony is I did that two paragraphs above, but I'm also not trying to sell anyone books based on it (although maybe I should...). She's trading on the perception of her expertise and then making statements which any other expert should take as a red-flag-to-a-bull to challenge that very expertise she claims. Which, I expect, she'd relish.

But think of it this way. When Kanye West interrupts Taylor Swift to make the bold claim that Beyonce had one of the GREATEST VIDEOS OF ALL TIME! OF ALL TIME!!! nobody takes his statement seriously. They just think he's a buffoon and a *******, and rightly so. Even if he hadn't made it while interrupting someone else and behaving like a jerk, even if he'd just said it in some interview, still, nobody would say "Hmm...you know, that Kanye West is on to something..." But people are far more likely to do that with Paglia. In essence, she is abusing her authority, her credentials, to gull people into accepting that she's made a coherent argument to support her position, when, really, all she's done is say EXACTLY the type of thing that Kanye did, but with prettier words. Again, at least as evidenced by the piece I linked to. If she goes more in-depth with her book, then I have a lot LESS trouble with it, but I still don't like the trolling aspect.
 
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Re: Camile Paglia on ROTS: "most significant work of art in any genre...[in 30 years]

Again, the amount of ignorant opining going on in this thread is overwhelming.

Again, the venom with which some are attacking a noted critic and professor is is disgusting.

Some folks here really need to get a grip on themselves.
 
Re: Camile Paglia on ROTS: "most significant work of art in any genre...[in 30 years]

I don't really think that there's been a substantive criticism of Paglia's argument that wasn't itself built on assertions and flowery rhetoric.
 
Re: Camile Paglia on ROTS: "most significant work of art in any genre...[in 30 years]

I don't really think that there's been a substantive criticism of Paglia's argument that wasn't itself built on assertions and flowery rhetoric.
...or spite. ...or a closed mind.

I don't necessarily agree with her, but I can understand where she's coming from.

I like that someone intelligent and well known is speaking up on behalf of something that's not entirely well regarded... but the discussion here against, not just her opinion, but against her is just a black eye on fanboys and this forum.
 
Re: Camile Paglia on ROTS: "most significant work of art in any genre...[in 30 years]

I don't agree that ROTS is the "most significant" piece of art in any genre in 30 years, but I think that there's a lot of merit to what she's saying both in her criticisms of the art establishment (which, as I read them, align very closely with that her critics in this thread are saying - and I'm not convinced that all who ragged on her really understood what she was saying); as well as to what she is saying about ROTS.
 
Re: Camile Paglia on ROTS: "most significant work of art in any genre...[in 30 years]

...or spite. ...or a closed mind.

I don't necessarily agree with her, but I can understand where she's coming from.

I like that someone intelligent and well known is speaking up on behalf of something that's not entirely well regarded... but the discussion here against, not just her opinion, but against her is just a black eye on fanboys and this forum.

I've got a little bit of time for her. Not across the board necessarily but a few things she's had to say over the years resonated for me. She's not afraid to make herself unpopular with her peers, that's for sure. (Did I just make the understatement of the century?) :lol
 
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Re: Camile Paglia on ROTS: "most significant work of art in any genre...[in 30 years]

A lot of flame for someone's opinion no?

To clarify I meant a lot of flame for the opinion of the art critic. So what if she thinks ROTS is high art? Doesn't affect you at all. ;)
 
Re: Camile Paglia on ROTS: "most significant work of art in any genre...[in 30 years]

No, that's certainly true. The vitriol about that is more about how she "argues" and the fact that it actually appears to "work" with people. It bugs me when that happens -- but that's actually not limited to just her. I get this way about political posturing that uses the same techniques.
 
Re: Camile Paglia on ROTS: "most significant work of art in any genre...[in 30 years]

No, that's certainly true. The vitriol about that is more about how she "argues" and the fact that it actually appears to "work" with people. It bugs me when that happens -- but that's actually not limited to just her. I get this way about political posturing that uses the same techniques.

I did try to have hate glasses on while watching the vid where she argues and explains why she feels this way. No. Still think she does a good job doing so.
 
Re: Camile Paglia on ROTS: "most significant work of art in any genre...[in 30 years]

:lol

Don't get me wrong, I think she's full of it. Just don't hate her for it. ;)
 
Re: Camile Paglia on ROTS: "most significant work of art in any genre...[in 30 years]

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Art is objective, so therefore art critics, just like everyone else, are allowed to have their opinions. But that is ALL they are is OPINIONS. Putting stock into anything an Art critic says is ridiculous. People are always rambling on about the Mona Lisa too, you know what I see? An old assed painting of some chick. The brush strokes , colors used etc are irrelevant to me the content is the same as any other painting of a person. If I was a "professional art critic" Does that mean that my opinion of it should bear any weight, of course not it's just one mans opinion and as we all know opinions are like aholes...everyone has one and most of them stink. :)
 
Re: Camile Paglia on ROTS: "most significant work of art in any genre...[in 30 years]

:lol

Don't get me wrong, I think she's full of it. Just don't hate her for it. ;)

I don't hate her. I don't hate her position. I disagree with it, but I don't hate it. What I hate is what she's doing. And the fact that it works so often.
 
Re: Camile Paglia on ROTS: "most significant work of art in any genre...[in 30 years]

I think that the praise for the "passion" in that scene is completely misguided, because in my opinion, the "passion" is misplaced.

When I watch the duel, I do not see two people embattled in an emotional struggle. I see technicians. I see two actors who worked very hard to swing a couple of sticks as fast as they can at each other and memorize sequences. Throughout most of the duel, there is no emotion. There's only the "one, two, three, duck, two, three" counting of beats. Sure, it looks cool. Sure, it's impressive that they could memorize such a long sequences of movies. But in the end, that's all it is.

Frankly, I got bored with the duel half way through.

Contrast it with the duel between Luke and Vader in either Empire or Jedi. Shorter. Less complex. But spilling over with emotion.

Yeah, Obi Wan gets a good moment at the end of the duel. Too little too late to make me care about the previous 15 minutes.

The passion is all behind the scenes in the choreography and special effects, and not coming from the actors where it belongs.

So I'm tossing my hat into the ring of those who think Paglia's interpretation of the scene is, at best, perplexing.
 
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