Camile Paglia on ROTS: "most significant work of art in any genre...[in 30 years]""

Re: Camile Paglia on ROTS: "most significant work of art in any genre...[in 30 years]

I'd posit here the idea that Paglia perplexes us because we're the SW fans and she's not. And that her opinion is, in part, due to the fact that she probably doesn't have years emotionally invested in the characters.

Also, a quote from Hitchcock:
"Still, Truffaut understood very well that I depend on style more than plot. It is how you do it, and not your content that makes you an artist. A story is simply a motif, just as a painter might paint a bowl of fruit just to give him something to be painting." Hitchcock said his own primary contribution to a film occurs while the script is being written. "Once the screenplay is finished," he said, "I'd just as soon not make the film at all. All the fun is over. I have a strongly visual mind. I visualize a picture right down to the final cuts. I write all this out in the greatest detail in the script, and then I don't look at the script while I'm shooting. I know it off by heart, just as an orchestra conductor needs not look at the score. It's melancholy to shoot a picture. When you finish the script, the film is perfect. But in shooting it you lose perhaps 40 per cent of your original conception."
 
Re: Camile Paglia on ROTS: "most significant work of art in any genre...[in 30 years]

:lol

Don't get me wrong, I think she's full of it. Just don't hate her for it. ;)

For God's sake who hates her? I'm saying she's a loon for her opinion. She can call me one too for mine if she likes. Grow some skins, people!
 
Re: Camile Paglia on ROTS: "most significant work of art in any genre...[in 30 years]

You know thats also what a bully say when confronted about his actions.

The problem with internet isnt the thickness of peoples skin, its the right many gives themselves to call anybody anything. Going way off topic, but it is a straight line between this behaviour and the kids being anonymously harrassed on the web.

Grow some manners, people!
 
Re: Camile Paglia on ROTS: "most significant work of art in any genre...[in 30 years]

Alright, I'll admit, it's a bit harsh of me to call her a ****ing idiot. I actually don't think that. I think she's fairly intelligent. But she sure is saying something that is really, really stupid and saying it in a way that boils my blood. I'll grant her, if she's trolling, it's a successful troll. It got me pissed. But it got me pissed because if she's NOT trolling, then she's engaging in demagoguery, and that pisses me off when it touches on things I care about. Politics, art, the law, you go all AM-Talk-Radio-"rhetoric" on those subjects, and you will get me riled up.

She deserves to be taken down (intellectually, folks, I'm not talking about Terry Tate: Office Linebacker tackling her), publicly, and in a high-profile way. I expect, however, that most of the people who'd be best positioned to do this will simply look at her, roll their eyes, and say "There you go again..." I think that's a mistake, though. People who "argue" the way she does actively harm society when they go unchallenged.
 
Re: Camile Paglia on ROTS: "most significant work of art in any genre...[in 30 years]

Well said, NAZGÛL. It's amazing how personal some folks are taking someone not just saying the ROTS' duel is the 'most significant work of art,' but that some are offended that it's even considered art or that someone dare have such an opinion and back it up with rational discussion to back up her claims.

I've always thought RotS was underrated... I've always thought the entire Prequel Trilogy was underrated for various reasons (they're kids movies!). But, I thought some of RotS was especially powerful - well, maybe not 'most significant work of art' powerful, but still very significant.

Paglia's words on that final duel made me look at the big picture of that duel a bit more. The lava, the brother vs. brother, the choreography of the lightsaber battle... (yeah, you have those silly little robots with the forcefields that Obi-Wan and Anakin jump on that always seemed out of place to me). I get how she relates it to an opera, I don't have to agree with her... but I can not just understand how she relates it that way, I can do so without taking it as a personal attack and being an ass in response.

All that said in this Salon article, she praises Real Housewives and dismisses Downton Abbey (which I personally think is the best television program on the air right now). So, she just might be off her rocker! :lol
 
Re: Camile Paglia on ROTS: "most significant work of art in any genre...[in 30 years]

JD,

Honest question: Were you referring to me?
 
Re: Camile Paglia on ROTS: "most significant work of art in any genre...[in 30 years]

If she had made her comments and prefaced it with "I think" or "In my opinion" perhaps the outrage would have been lessened.
 
Re: Camile Paglia on ROTS: "most significant work of art in any genre...[in 30 years]

Exactly. It still would've been an outrageous statement, but if she weren't appealing to her own authority as an art critic and an academic expert, I'd have a lot less problem with what she was saying.

Likewise, if she said "I really love that movie," ok, great. I'd be curious to find out why. She explains some of that. But that's not what she said. She said "the most significant work of art in any medium -- including literature -- in the last 30 years." You make an outrageous statement, in such an outrageous way, and it shouldn't be surprising if people say "WTF?! That's OUTRAGEOUS!"
 
Re: Camile Paglia on ROTS: "most significant work of art in any genre...[in 30 years]

Which is what Paglia does, much like Greer (these days).
 
Re: Camile Paglia on ROTS: "most significant work of art in any genre...[in 30 years]

If she had made her comments and prefaced it with "I think" or "In my opinion" perhaps the outrage would have been lessened.
Well, when you're reading what's obviously a critique or a review - isn't that a given?

I understand most of us have not read her book - which is a collection of essays on various pieces of artwork throught history with which she ended with RotS. If you watch the video, Paglia states '...which convinced me,' 'I was watching...', etc.

...and her quote from the the first post of this very thread (which itself is taken from a nearly 15 minute video, which I'd wager most of us watched a fraction of): "My goodness, this is so powerful. This is like grand opera; it's like landscape painting from romanticism; it's like apocalyptic destruction of industrial culture and politics; everything going, with this unbelievable dance theater of the longest duel ever filmed in movies. And it's passionate engagement, you know, on a lava river between these two men, I became overwhelmed. So I'm saying - and I will defend this to the death - this long finale of Revenge of the Sith, is the most powerful, and the most significant work of art in any genre - including literature - in the last thirty years."

"This is like..." "it's like..." "I became overwhelmed." "So I'm saying..." What we have here is clearly a case of opinion - and spoken during a video clip which can be distorted, editted or interpreted any number of ways.

I like that she also goes on to mention his commercial success, his toys, etc. "...people have to get passed all that. And really look at the fact that George Lucas is a world figure who has penetrated the imagination of young people - really three generations now."
 
Re: Camile Paglia on ROTS: "most significant work of art in any genre...[in 30 years]

Yeah, I agree JD, that's how I read it as well and why I think folks are overreacting a little.
 
Re: Camile Paglia on ROTS: "most significant work of art in any genre...[in 30 years]

Damn, you made me watch that video one more time. ;) She clearly says its her opinion... like all the time.

"I felt a ... is needed."

"Art, in my view, is ..."

"... wasteland, as I see it."

"I dont see any ..."

"My sense ..."

"I believe that ..."

"... wich I think ..."

"... as I see it."

"To me its like a Puccini opera."

"And I concluded that ..."


In the video she gives a long series of examples why she feels the scene is strong.
 
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Re: Camile Paglia on ROTS: "most significant work of art in any genre...[in 30 years]

You know thats also what a bully say when confronted about his actions.

The problem with internet isnt the thickness of peoples skin, its the right many gives themselves to call anybody anything. Going way off topic, but it is a straight line between this behaviour and the kids being anonymously harrassed on the web.

Grow some manners, people!

Good grief. Let me get this straight. I have bullied Paglia for calling her a loon on a blinking internet forum? I'm guilty of harassing her?

I reject this utterly. When I'm arguing with friends I will say to them, 'Are you nuts?' 'You're insane!' etc. That's what I'm saying to Paglia - except she almost certainly is unaware of my existence. And you reckon I'm on the path to internet bullying??

All right. Is this any better: the poor dear has got herself in a bit of a muddle, in my view. Am I allowed to say that?

PC horseplay aside, back to the main point. She has asserted that ROTS, in her view, is the greatest work of art in any media in the last 30 years, and she does so in her capacity as a prominent cultural critic. This makes Lucas' film superior to all films, all novels, all and every artistic endeavour undertaken in the world since 1992. It is preposterous, attention-grabbing, eye-watering hyperbole.
 
Re: Camile Paglia on ROTS: "most significant work of art in any genre...[in 30 years]

So its PC horseplay to react when someone say that people need to have thick skin so you can namecall people as you see fit?

I guess I have to deal with kids that are bullied on the net more than you.
 
Re: Camile Paglia on ROTS: "most significant work of art in any genre...[in 30 years]

"So I'm saying - and I will defend this to the death - this long finale of Revenge of the Sith, is the most powerful, and the most significant work of art in any genre - including literature - in the last thirty years."

Well, I disagree, and I'm just a viewer with an opinion.
 
Re: Camile Paglia on ROTS: "most significant work of art in any genre...[in 30 years]

She's good at what she does, I'll give her that, but she's pulling the wool over people's eyes.

First, it's not "just her opinion." Camille Paglia is not just some fan on the internet, casually offering an opinion. Camille Paglia is acknowledged as an art expert, and presents herself as such. She's CAMILLE PAGLIA. When she makes a claim, people pay attention because of her perceived expertise, and they rely on her expertise even if they don't necessarily agree with her positions. The thing is, expertise and authority have to be both demonstrated and legitimated.

Paglia isn't doing that, because she's not backing up her position. And that, my friends, is what experts do. They make claims, and they back them up. Usually with a lot of facts and information, because that's how you establish the legitimacy of your position. And you establish your expertise by both the breadth of the information upon which you can call to do that, and upon the analytical capabilities you demonstrate in so doing.

At first blush, it may seem that she is making such an argument, but she isn't. Her premise (depending on which piece you read) is that (A) the final battle of ROTS is the most significant work of art in any medium in the last 30 years; or (B) George Lucas is the most important artist of our time. And she provides an argument in support of....neither.

This is my second gripe about her. She APPEARS to make an argument, but the thing she argues for is not the position she's taken. It's similar, but it's not the same. Remember: Paglia's point is that ROTS is the most significant (etc.,etc.,) or that Lucas is the most important (etc., etc.). The information she offers in support of those positions, however, demonstrates not that they are the BEST, but rather that they are GOOD.

That is not the same thing.

If she is the expert she claims to be, she should be able to speak at length about comparisons to other contemporary works or artists who might be regarded as equally important or even more important, and then explain why those others fail to rise to the level of what she considers the best. To do that, she would also have to lay out her own criteria for what = "the best." She hasn't done that either, in spite of her claiming the mantle of expertise upon which others will rely.

Instead, at least based on what I've seen, she's made bold statements and has lazily not bothered to support them. And yet, we're suppose to treat her as an authority? Only if she earns it, I say. And you do that by doing the work of backing up your statements when you make them, if you're an expert.

Think of it this way. If I claimed to be an expert in diet and nutrition, and I say "Apples are the single most important and nutritious food source humans can eat," and then tried to sell you a book called The Apple Diet, don't you think it'd be legitimate for me to be challenged on both my expertise and my basic premise, particularly if I only said "Apples are delicious, and full of vitamins and nutrients. They look pleasing too" in support of my premise? I would not, as an expert, have effectively argued for my premise of "Apples are the best" by saying "apples are really good." How are apples better than, say, steak? Or asparagus, or barley, or fish, or peanuts, or chocolate, or cumin, or salt, or ANY OTHER FOOD SOURCE YOU CAN THINK OF?

Because -- read closely -- that's what she's doing, at least in the bits of work I've seen. Now, if she bothers to lay out why Lucas/ROTS is qualitatively BETTER than anyone else (which, FYI, would involve comparisons and a basic taxonomy for what = "the best"), I'd love to see it. But I ain't seen it yet. Not in support of the premises she states.

Real experts give you the reasoning and data BEHIND their conclusions because real experts know that this is how you demonstrate your expertise, and how you advance the state of whatever field it is in which you claim your expertise. Why? Because by doing so you open yourself up to challenge. If you're really an expert, you should be able and willing to defend against such challenges, and, indeed, WELCOME those challenges because you recognize that theory and practice advance as a result of those challenges. Maybe your theory is proven wrong. Or maybe it shakes up conventional wisdom and leads us to a better understanding. But either way, putting your theory out there and offering up a coherent argument to be carefully examined and considered benefits the community at large. Moreover, real experts do this because they recognize that FAILING to do so not only results in them being challenged personally for being hacks, but undermines the legitimacy of their field of expertise, and indeed the very concept of expertise itself.
 
Re: Camile Paglia on ROTS: "most significant work of art in any genre...[in 30 years]

Get a grip. You're reading way more into this than is even there... if you don't like what she said, that's fine. To continue to try and dissect it even further like this is just silly... there's a whole section of her book dedicated to this subject, write your own book countering hers if you feel you must.

You appear to be taking this way too seriously and to be honest, I wonder if you've even read the book where she truly supports her claim - because this interview piece is merely to support the book.

She has her opinion and she backed it up and did so in a very substantial way. She has experience and education to back up her opinion and is well respected for giving her opinion and critques.

She made a very bold claim, one I'm sure was geared in some respects for controversy. ...and good art is often controversial.
 
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