BORG 101 question...

Discussion in 'Entertainment and Movie Talk' started by joker-scar, Nov 16, 2011.

  1. joker-scar

    joker-scar Well-Known Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    as i am not a hardcore Trekker, although i love the orig series and Voyager, i thought someone here could answer this question for me. i am sure this has come up in TNG but since I only watched it sporadically i wouldn't know...what are the origins of the Borg?
     
  2. tk1055

    tk1055 Sr Member

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    Originally, Q shot the Enterprise into their space and they back tracked to Fed space. However in the EU it is said that V'Ger created them.


    www.youtube.com/watch?v=anMOQ3vTy9k from Star Trek Legacy game.
     
  3. Jeyl

    Jeyl Master Member

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    Unknown.

    Some believe that Voyager 6 from Star Trek the Motion Picture encountered a species of living machines that could have been the borg before they became hostile, but it's a little farfetched considering how they built that huge freaking ship for a satellite yet they stick with cubes for themselves.

    There was also a Star Trek manga by Tokyopop that gave the borg queen an origin. Proceed with caution on that one.

    But in my opinion, I don't think their origin really matters. If I had to venture a guess as to how they came to be, it was a serious accident by some race that wanted to improve themselves but the technology that was used to ensure that saw that improving itself was the only absolute and it needed to improve every single thing in existence.

    And in my own personal opinion, the Borg Queen was a big mistake when she was added to the Trek lore. The Borg worked a lot better in TNG when they were described as a collective conscience that didn't have a single leader and only used individual drones like Locutus to show humanity that resistance really was futile. If they can get Picard, they can get you. But it's alright. They really do believe they're doing you a favor.

    Troi: We're not dealing with a single leader. It's the collective minds of all of them.
    Picard: That would have definite advantages.
    Troi: Yes, a single leader can make mistakes which is unlikely with the combined whole.

    And if you watch First Contact or any episode of Voyager that features the Borg Queen, it flat out proves that point.
     
  4. Alan Castillo

    Alan Castillo Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    In the Trek movies & the series, the origins of the Borg are unknown.
     
  5. The BDK

    The BDK Sr Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    And that, is how I hope it stays. Its like ruining Boba Fett by showing him in EPII as a kid.

    The Borg are these truely horrifying bad guys that don't stop, we don't need to know their origins.
     
  6. Dave Porter

    Dave Porter Sr Member

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    Aren't they originally from Sweden?

    Sounds Swedish to me - :lol
     
  7. Apollo

    Apollo Legendary Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Wrong, they were untill "Hugh" came along effectively killing their BA status :rolleyes


     
  8. darthgordon

    darthgordon Sr Member

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    Yes, there are no definitive origins. The V'Ger theory holds no water, given the technological differences and description of the distance V'Ger traveled.

    All we know is that the Borg Queen said that they used to be organic but included the synthetic to achieve perfection. Guinan said that the Borg were made up of organic and synthetic parts that had been evolving for centuries.

    The Borg had existed in the Delta Quadrant as early as the 15th Century, controlling only a handful of systems.

    As for the Borg Queen, I do not believe she is a leader in the traditional sense, nor a single being. Since she's apparently been destroyed several times and it almost appears that the collective builds her when they need her (or at least she's not kept in humanoid form). It would be similar to Locutus... using Picard as a leader... the Collective themselves created this persona. She's claimed that she brings order to chaos. As the Borg exist as a collective mind, it may be required for a constructed personality to organize those thoughts. It may even be a persona created by the collectives own desire to feel a sense of individuality... and perhaps that part of the Collective to express emotion. After all, while they are all joined mechanically, they are still made up of trillions of organic minds.

    Of course, the real reason was to give the characters in First Contact a single villain to interact with. Most of the time when the Borg have been used there's been a single villain also... someone for audiences to focus on and the characters to interact with... Q, Locutus, Lore, the Queen and Seven of Nine to name a few.
     
  9. Jeyl

    Jeyl Master Member

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    But isn't that what makes the Borg kind of... unique and threatening? It's like criticizing "The Doomsday Machine" episode because the weapon didn't have a Captain to talk to. If you give us a single entity to interact with, it becomes something tangible that can be destroyed. Example. When the crew of the Enterprise captured Locutus, were the Borg defeated right there? No. They still went to Earth. But when you kill the Queen? ALL THE DRONES DIE. If the borg Queen is an attempt by the borg to express their individuality, why do they make her to the point where if she's destroyed, they all die?

    Also, if you watch the Borg Queen in Voyager, she's about as detached from the collective as a potted plant.

    Borg Collective: Vessel identified. USS Voyager. We will pursue and assimilate.
    Borg Queen: No. They have not compromised our security. Let them go for now. I'll keep an eye on them.

    Sounds like a leader to me. A leader who just made a mistake that will end up destroying almost every Borg we've ever seen in the whole franchise. If the Queen is supposed to be the collective as a whole, why the heck does she need to tell the collective what to do?
     
  10. 0neiros

    0neiros Master Member

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    It's like the Matrix. The One is an inevitability given the complexity of the program, Anomalies will occur. I believe The Queen is a control for any anomalies or situations that may occur that the collective would be unable to deal with on it's own.

    The Borg have been around for a few Millennia. The 2 discoveries by the Borg that allowed them to spread like a plague, was the assimilation of a species that had Self-repairing technology for their ships, and Transwarp Hubs. These hubs have hundreds of Conduits branching off of them, allowing the Borg quick travel to almost anywhere. IIRC They had 7 established hubs, and had discovered and were working on #8 in "Endgame"

    Now, at the end of Voyager, Janeway disrupted the Borg Collectives ability to communicate with itself, and destroyed the new Transwarp hub, causing a feedback to all the other Transwarp hubs destroying them too. Basically Janeway set the Borg back several Millennia.
     
  11. MooCriket

    MooCriket Master Member

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    The Borg really do not need a backstory for me. Jeyl, I have to admit that I am shocked that you do not like the Borg queen. In nearly every thread post I have read by you, (so it seems) you are always saying....something, something, something strong female, something, something, something.

    Just saying. My God, worlds are going to collide. The zombies are coming. Dogs and cats living together:)
     
  12. ONEYE

    ONEYE Sr Member

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    The coolest villains have mysterious origins. I didn't need to know them to enjoy them on screen.
     
  13. darthgordon

    darthgordon Sr Member

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    I can't really defend sloppy writing... any more than I can defend Data's cat changing breed and sex, Spock using the term "ancestor" to apparently describe his mother, Kirk saying that he had a brother once and got him back (referring to Spock) and apparently forgetting about his brother Sam or Khan recognizing Chekov (actually, I can defend that one).

    This is writing done just for our (the audience’s) benefit. It’s to let us know that the Borg have identified and located an intrusion and that the Queen has something up her sleeve. Why the Queen and collective need to talk at all is beyond me. According to the Queen in First Contact, linguistic code was primitive. She never spoke to a drone or to the collective. -Neither did Locutus for that matter.

    It’s kind of like why Klingons seem to speak English, even when they are not around other Earthers. Heck, even when Starfleet officers go undercover, it seems that those they are infiltrating alter their language so that our heroes can understand it. Or why villains have to monologue their magnificent plan to either the hero, or their minions (who should already be aware of the plans), all really for the audience’s benefit.

    The only defense I can give is similar to something Troi said in the TNG episode, Time Squared. In it she discusses the duality of our own thoughts when making a decision. When we’re pondering a decision in our heads, who are we talking to? -Just ourselves, of course. This still doesn’t answer the question as to why they actually needed to speak… but, like I said, it’s sloppy writing.

    The Borg race evolved behind the scenes over time. Initially, they were supposed to be the bug creatures from Conspiracy. They were then changed to a race of cybernetic beings with a collective consciousness that were only interested in technology. They weren’t interested in biological life forms. Then came The Best of Both Worlds where they wanted to assimilate the human race. Even though they were conceived of as a collective mind, it would appear that Picard is assimilated, given a name and then leads the attack on Wolf 359. After the Hugh fiasco that makes us believe that they are no longer a collective mind at all and makes them just lame villains (but we now established that the Borg have transwarp capability) they come back for First Contact. This time showing that only a handful of ships were effected by Hugh’s individuality… either because it was never intended to effect all of the Borg, or the writers realized it was a stupid idea and a waste of a good villain. So a queen was created to establish drama and give us a focal villain. However, her answers as to her role within the collective are cryptic as is her answer as to why, if she was on the first cube that was destroyed over Earth, she’s still alive.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 9, 2018
  14. darthgordon

    darthgordon Sr Member

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    Oh... And the protagonist... The one that brought conflict and drama to The Doomsday Machine was Decker. Picture the episode without him...
     
  15. Jeyl

    Jeyl Master Member

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    That's Antagonist.
     
  16. Jeyl

    Jeyl Master Member

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    Really?

    I wish my computer would still work without having it's hard drive attached to it.
     
  17. darthgordon

    darthgordon Sr Member

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    You are correct.! That was my mistake on that one.
     
  18. SSgt Burton

    SSgt Burton Sr Member

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    Not trying to argue here but I did hear a mild explanation for this-

    Take the scene in Trek III where Kruge tells his first officer Torg to "Share this with no one!" in plain English.

    The explanation I heard is that Klingon ship commanders and their senior officers studied English in order to be able to openly discuss secret plans in front of the crew, without the crew being able to understand what they were talking about.

    It's a bit of a stretch I'll admit, however it does explain why Kruge would switch between Klingon and English often.

    Same principle applies to other races. Or the old inside joke that our televisions are all equipped with Universal Translators. ;)

    However Shatner did try to get this right by having his Klingons in Trek V (*shudder*) speak only in Klingon amongst themselves.


    (My apologies for the hijack)


    Kevin
     
  19. clonesix

    clonesix Sr Member

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    We thank the Borg for Seven of Nine, tertiary adjunct of Unimatrix 01.

    That is all.
     
  20. darthgordon

    darthgordon Sr Member

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    I am referring to the movie First Contact. She doesn't speak to the drones. I don't get your harddrive comment...
     
  21. Jannix Quinn

    Jannix Quinn Sr Member

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    The borgs were best in the next generation. Once Voyager go to them, they sucked.
     
  22. micdavis

    micdavis Master Member

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    Back in the 70's an Amiga and a TRS-80 got a little drunk at an office party and well...you know....
     
  23. Jeyl

    Jeyl Master Member

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    No wonder they prefer Earth all the time instead of all those countless other vulnerable planets.
     
  24. SmilingOtter

    SmilingOtter Master Member

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    "They sound Swedish."
     
  25. d_jedi1

    d_jedi1 Sr Member

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    As the borg were lightly modified Cybermen from Doctor Who, my answer is... Mondas

    :lol
     
  26. Angelus Lupus

    Angelus Lupus Sr Member

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    They aren't (as has already been pointed out they were a development of the original idea to use the bugs from Conspiracy but less expensive).
    Although the new Cybus Cybermen's method of "upgrading" humans is more like the Borg
     
  27. hydin

    hydin Sr Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    The story for the borg is even more weird in the novels.

    The Titan series (where Riker gets a ship) has a backstory origin for them, and it's just... weird. I can't recall all the details, but basically these people learn to store their minds digitally so they are immortal, other people discover them, they take over their minds, one lady goes crazy and instead of being a symbiotic relationship she just flat out turns em into drones and boom Borg Queen.

    It's a lot more complex than that, but it's honestly a crap series and not worth worrying about.

    Chris
     
  28. JediG60racer

    JediG60racer Sr Member

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    Wesley Crusher is responsible for the creation of the Borg.

    He released those nanites on TNG, which had to be planted on their own planet because they evolved and replicated too quickly. Of course, it wasn't long after being dumped on the planet that they developed the ability to travel through time and space, transplanted themselves into the Delta Quadrant 500 years in the past, and began taking over other species to continue their growth.

    * you, Wesley.
     
    darth_myeek likes this.
  29. Daddyphat

    Daddyphat New Member

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    Hahahaha Classic! :lol
     
  30. jedi573

    jedi573 Well-Known Member

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    I agree, I liked it better when there wasn't a Borg "queen." I got where they were going, with the whole "hive" thing that would suggest an ant- or bee-like group, but I liked it better when you weren't really sure who they were, how they came about, what they wanted, or how they did it. They just were.

    Grammatically speaking, I thought it a nice touch when alternate-reality Riker yelled, "The Borg is everywhere!"

    Cool.

    Andy
     
  31. TheDoctor

    TheDoctor Sr Member

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    Thus the reason novels are not included in Canon. I don't want to start a Canon war, but I don't know how people can keep anything straight in the novels. It's often contradictory, the characters don't seem to be the same characters as on the show, and much of it is just an incredible amount of Fan-*.
     
  32. TheDoctor

    TheDoctor Sr Member

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    I'll raise you "The Borg started going wrong in 'The Best of Both Worlds'."

    In "Q Who?" it was pretty clear the Borg were only after Technology and they weren't interested in people. They were a hive mind with a single goal and purpose.

    In BoBW, suddenly the Borg are interested in humans - they take no interest in Data (Technology) and don't seem to care about any of the Starfleet ships they tear through at Wolf 359. Also, they abduct Picard and turn him into a Borg - not just a drone, but a Leader. WTF? Locutus was the pre-Queen (in terms of writing) and that was a HUGE mistake. If anything they should have either made Picard into a regular drone or, better yet, lay him on a slap and plug him into the Borg collective like a Flash Drive.

    BoBW would have been MUCH better had they not taken Picard, made it to Earth (after the destruction), then taken one of Earth's giant computers or some such Technology thing, then turned around and left. Instead of destroying the Cube, it's still out there, hunting for technology (and it has the Enterprise's scent - they should identify something the Enterprise has that the Borg want - maybe Data).

    Also, freeing a Borg drone from the collective should be like disconnecting a Terminal from a network - useless. If they want a dramatic rescue, they should need to do more - maybe Picard's consciousness is backed up somewhere, or they have to somehow 'extract' Picard from the collective.

    One thing Voyage Borg (and First Contact Borg) did right was the quest for perfection. However, this quest had a distinctly 'human' trait - obsessive compulsive. The Borg should show restraint (something that shows them making a calculation of "If we retreat now, there's another way to do this, etc.).
     
  33. darthgordon

    darthgordon Sr Member

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    Fanwank - Fandom * wiki

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuity_(fiction)

    Irony | Define Irony at Dictionary.com

    :p
     
    robn1 likes this.
  34. SSgt Burton

    SSgt Burton Sr Member

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    Best reply ever. :lol


    Kevin
     
  35. joker-scar

    joker-scar Well-Known Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Re: BORG 101 question...

    I agree..yet i still want to KNOW............
     

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