A question about lineage

[TheDragon]

Hi,

I was looking for answers regarding what qualifies as a lineage prop or costume in relation to 3D scanning.


I have been playing around with the Battlefront models for the past few months, which is nothing new in regards to 3D files and finished props made using them as reference or as is since the launch of the game a decade ago. Some of the battlefront models were created using, and stay true to, 3D scans created through the process of photogrammetry; However, as the models were optimized for the video game, does their relatively low poly mesh appearance make physical items created using them non lineage?

*This is assuming that a high resolution scan is lineage, although multiple sellers, most notably regal robots website attest to that being the case.

My best physical analogy to what its like using the files from the game for those unfamiliar with 3D modelling is like having an aluminum foil impression of the prop and working out the smaller details from that, which I see leads to misinterpretation of the original scan a lot of the time, leading to something that’s in the 'uncanny valley' of having accurate overall dimensions but incorrect smaller details.

Where I’m going with this, is that if these low poly meshes aren’t considered lineage, but more data from the original photo scan was reintroduced/restored to the 3D model would it then be considered once again a lineage item? And what would be considered the level of detail / resolution needed present in the 3D scan to be considered lineage?


Thanks for reading, and I’d love to discuss this further.

 

[Media Man]

To me I would say 3d models from games that were created off of screen used items do not count as lineage.

If you 3d printed out a Storm Trooper helmet from Battle Front and compared it to it's onscreen counterpart the differences would be measurable.

There is a lot of clean up involved with 3d scanning which takes away from the purity in my eyes.

 

[OddballFett]

I'd argue a SCAN could hypothetically have lineage. But a prop made from it would not.

In the case you're describing, that scan's lineage is compromised, and you're talking about reintroducing characteristics and imperfections artificially in order to "restore" them. But then that involves artistic interpretation, and so if anything you've LOST the lineage - as you've already said these aren't high res models plus they've been idealised, either to get RID of perceived imperfections (because your average gamer wouldn't appreciate a wonky Stormtrooper bucket the way a prop enthusiast would) or for reasons of practicality (which may be a necessity in order to make it work within the game engine for practical computer game reasons - one simple example being all Stormtroopers in Battlefront would be identical as they're not going to go out of their way and make each bucket unique like they were in real life)

Hypothetically you could scan the originals accurately (taking heavily modified low res inaccurate scans from computer games wouldn't cut it in terms of accuracy) and make an accurate prop from your new scan. But as your prop wasn't made using the original props themselves I'd say they technically wouldn't have *genuine* lineage as no original props were touched or cast, even if they were 100% accurate. Could you claim accuracy? Perhaps, but not real lineage.

That's just my two cents though.

 

[eethan]

It's a difficult topic and different people will have a different opinion on this of course.
However, a direct high res scan of screen-used objects has been accepted as lineage by the community in several cases, you mentioned Regal Robot, there is also the current Mike Warren offering of Darth Vader helmet, it is a scan and it is mentioned as the best lineage helmet you can get on all the Vader facebook groups.
I guess it depends how you define lineage. A scan gives lineage in my opinion, even though it is not a direct physical lineage. A direct cast gives clear lineage. However, in both cases it will depend on the quality of the work of the person doing the scans/eventual cleanups/prints/casts.

When you take the last Vader offering here for instance, It was initially supposed to be a printed master from a high res scan, then in the end, the actual helmet was cast directly. Personally, when I read it was eventualy cast, I felt it was a better option as you don't really know what will happen with scanning, printing, cleaning up the print, a cast is more likely to be very faithful, especially to the small details that could have been lost while working on cleaning the master.
So, i guess I prefer a cast, but to me at least, both a scan and a cast have lineage.

In the case of Regal robot for instance, I think they might not have the autorization to cast the items in the lucasfilm archive directly and are only allowed to scan them. They still have lineage and given it is the only option, it's cool as you still get access to accurate scanned props when there could have been nothing at all. That being said, there has been limitations to the process in one of the runs I think, there was printing lines on some of the props that people received as the production pieces were directly printed instead of mastered and cast.

In the case of the battlefront game, yeah, that will give you information on the overall shape and size I guess, but that is not clear lineage, it has been cleaned, modified, reduced, the lineage is pretty blurry after all this.

 

[TheDragon]

I agree 100% that the battlefront meshes by themselves would be a massive stretch to claim lineage from. However I'm more interested in the models when their accompanying data is restored, as the mesh isn't the whole piece of the puzzle when it comes to how models are optimized for games and think I should explain myself better in what I am talking about.

I don't think the stormtrooper is the best example as like the snowtrooper helmet, which is not accurate in the slightest, it is highly glossy; However I will use it as an example here with some renders I put together to explain my point.

---

First of all I want to make my case that the models are not idealised (at least some of the models, e.g. not darth vader) and I believe that to be the case as it was a large selling point for the game at the time and I believe that the team at DICE put a lot of work in to preserve the props when transferring them into the game.

Below is an example, showcasing the battlefront stormtrooper helmet below (80mm focal length) and above (30mm focal length) what's possibly a screen-used (but at least production used) stormtrooper helmet. I have used two different focal lengths in my renders as i am unsure of the original photos.

The center photo was screenshot from a video by CINEMATTOX that can be found here
​

And once more for the Boushh helmet (30mm focal length)

Top: screenshot from a video by CINEMATTOX that can be found here
Bottom: Boushh with normals applied
​

---

To better explain the process of 'adding' detail back into the model see below.

Left: LOD0 Stormtrooper helmet mesh Right: LOD0 Stormtrooper helmet mesh + normals
​

The image above shows the Level of Detail 0 (highest detail mesh) with and without normal textures. Normal textures are used in a game to add additional detail to a lower poly mesh as a means to make the game run better. Normally these textures are 'baked' off of a high resolution model to allow the computer to accurately calculate information about the surface of the model without the associated increased polygon count.

However these textures as is cannot be turned into geometry that can be 3D printed etc. However through the use of automated image manipulation the normal textures can be displaced onto the surface of the model to then be real geometry that can be printed.

---

To get to the meat and potatoes of what i'm asking, I have been playing around with different techniques for implementing these details back into the 3D model (without manually 'sculpting' or modification of the textures or mesh beyond combining them back to what the original high poly mesh would have looked like) and have been successful in accomplishing it for the lando skiff disguise helmets' jaw piece. I'm not 100% on whether this model in particular is scanned from the screen-used piece but hypothetically if this technique of reapplying the texture data to the game model was done correctly and printed to a physical part in high resolution would that then be considered a lineage piece?

​

Edit 2/01/25: Clarified images

 

[eethan]

I have been doing 3D for 20 years, 10 professionally, I had no idea you could bake normals back into a high res 3D model, that is pretty cool!
The boushh is pretty impressive!

 

[eethan]

A weird detail is that the blue lines on the stormtrooper are a negative detail were they should normally be raised I would say. This raises a question to the accuracy of some other things I guess. But the rest is pretty impressive!

 

[TheDragon]

I have been doing 3D for 20 years, 10 professionally, I had no idea you could bake normals back into a high res 3D model, that is pretty cool!
The boushh is pretty impressive!

I'm just using off the shelf programs that automate the process but they are able to turn the normal maps into height maps that I can then displace onto the original geometry.

A weird detail is that the blue lines on the stormtrooper are a negative detail were they should normally be raised I would say. This raises a question to the accuracy of some other things I guess. But the rest is pretty impressive!

Unfortunately that is the problem I see in calling anything that is derivative of the battlefront models 'lineage', as unless it's known what the process was in the creation of the battlefront game model its impossible to tell if its 100% accurate or fully unaltered.

 

[BudaFett]

I honestly think it depends on the quality of the scan, sanitization, and how a replica is made. If the scan is high quality, there's been no to minimal clean-up, and you can create a true 1:1 replica of it then it's lineage. It's no different than pouring silicone now from the advancements of scanning and making a buck from 3D printing. I would almost consider, say a scan from DICE, with details added back in, a few generations removed from the linerage piece.

 

[SCREAMINYELLOW]

…and you can create a true 1:1 replica of it then it's lineage…

I agree. Like in the case of the Lando skiff helmet, resin printing the detailed pieces and FDM printing a buck for the top shell would be a good example I feel.

 

[PoopaPapaPalps]

By the most standard definition, this project would not be considered "lineage." DICE may have started with a true 3D scan but it's already been modified to run in their game engine, and then you're putting details back into it by automatic means which is now re-interpreting what isn't there as something else as an approximation.

"Lineage" is direct tie back to source (production-made, duplicate/donor part, or screen-used) with little-to-no interference between that and finished product.

 

[SCREAMINYELLOW]

…may have started with a true 3D scan but it's already been modified to run in their game engine, and then you're putting details back into it by automatic means which is now re-interpreting what isn't there as something else as an approximation.

Please don’t take this as a form of argument (it’s difficult to relay curiosity/questions over text) and I know you have some experience on the topic of lineage

I think what TheDragon was trying to explain is that the original data is being used still (please correct me if I’m mistaken)? Like DICE kept the base simplified geometry for keeping the game running smooth, and the original data from the surface scan still exists and is being aligned and centered back onto the simplified base scan (granted, still using some scrutiny in cases like the stormtrooper helmet details eethan pointed out raises its own questions to the “lineage”).

I believe the automation TheDragon is referring to was converting the Normal Map (the data from the surface detail, practically a file type) to a file with dimensionality/editability/etc.

Again, I may be completely off the mark for understanding this, but it’s an interesting topic and method I have not seen/heard of before on the RPF.

Really value the input of the Senior/Experienced members of the forum chiming in as well

 

[PoopaPapaPalps]

Yeah, it's still not "lineage."

I have a long-term project I'm working on now and it's a "restoration" of a Rubies Deluxe Vader helmet, and it's apropos to this topic because it falls into similar parameters. When Don Post was bought by Rubies, Rubies had access to the molds and casts used to make the DP Vader buckets, which came from a production-made helmet years ago. It's believed their Deluxe offering is a heavily altered version of the cast they inherited with simplified details and some additional work to make mass-production, consumer copies easier to manufacture. My project is to restore as much of the original details lost back into it as much as possible by hand. The base form is there, it's 1:1, with traces of many of the original details still there but heavily simplified to make consumer copies easier to produce. My putting back the neutered details, or having to reinterpret others to work with the base mask, still doesn't make it "lineage."

 

[laellee]

I have re-meshed quite a few lineage (including screen-used) scans of props over the last few years. I would love to be able to call one of my re-worked models and the resulting prints from those scans 'lineage', but it doesn't sit right with me. I am duplicating all of the nuances, the warps, the asymmetry, the damage of the original scanned piece, but in the end my meshes are 100% new reproductions of those scans. I do absolutely feel that some of those new meshed models (after hours and hours of work) are a better and more accurate representation of the original prop than the scan due to the shortcomings in the abilities of even quality commercial scanners, but that new model still is still a disconnected fascimile of the original at best to me (if that makes sense).

So, I will describe those new meshes as something like modeled from 'a scanned lineage helmet' or a 'scanned screen-used helmet' where those statements are appropriate. It's a clunky way to say it, but these reworks have a ton of value to me even if I don't consider them direct 'lineage'.
Put another way, if somebody offered me either (A) a 2nd generation cast of an original stormtrooper helmet, or (B) the opportunity to use a direct scan of that same original helmet to then model up, I am taking the scan every time. The new model doesn't have that physical 'lineage', but I am sure I will end up with something closer and more true to the original than a 2nd generation cast if I put the time in.

That is how I sit with using lineage scans to create screen-accurate replicas.... Alternately, when a video game franchise says 'hey our team modeled our character helmets using scanned original helmets' or whatever, I take the 'quality' of those models with less than a grain of salt. Those in-game models (even the high resolution assets used in some generated cut-scenes) are a 1000 miles away from any original prop lineage. There's a reason why a game model can be 3mb and a scan of the same real world prop can be a 1000 times that size; there is no comparison as they are serving completely different purposes in completely different mediums.

Man now I am tired of using the word lineage lol

 

[TheDragon]

Thanks for engaging in this discussion. The concept of giving 3D scans the title of lineage I think does blur the lines, especially if the scan isn't as high accuracy as something like the SFS scan where every paint chip is visible.

I think this thread has clarified my initial questions, at least for me, in terms of both direct casts or scans of original being the cutoff for what is considered lineage; With modifications like the low-poly optimization of the models for the game severing that line of lineage as it can't be meticulously traced in terms of what changes may have been introduced like with PoopaPapaPalps Rubies helmet. I guess you could call what I have been able to do a restoration of detail but not of the lineage of the original scan by the DICE team.

From what I've read, both terminology and transparency are key in acknowledging the origins without overstepping or misleading claims about origin.

If I end up building anything utilizing what I've talked about in this thread I'll make sure to document the process as I don't intend to mislead anyone on how I ended up from A to B or to claim that what I've got is something its not and I hope i don't come across as trying to say that it'll be as good as any sort of cast or direct scan of the prop.

I don't think I want to touch the word lineage after this with a 10 foot pole, but wondering what you would call something generated in this way as i believe it's still above a fan sculpt in terms of accuracy?

If you're interested, this presentation by DICE themselves speaks about the process in which the assets for the game were constructed: Photogrammetry and Star Wars Battlefront

 

[SCREAMINYELLOW]

Well put. And definitely like the idea of giving transparency of the source material being used. Like others mentioned above, while it may not be a true lineage the way us prop replicators/collectors use the term, knowing a replica at least stems from it in some way is still preferable to inaccurate replicas, especially when true lineage cast/scanned pieces are not available to fans like others have mentioned. Wouldn’t consider it a bad thing at all so long as it’s explained!

 

[PoopaPapaPalps]

I don't think I want to touch the word lineage after this with a 10 foot pole, but wondering what you would call something generated in this way as i believe it's still above a fan sculpt in terms of accuracy?

It's still a fan sculpt, and there's nothing wrong with that. It just has a certain history that needs to be explained is all. My Rubies "rebuild" is still a fan sculpt but that doesn't mean I like what I've done any less. It's just not a warts-and-all duplicate of the original screen used mask(s)---but it is close!

 

[tubachris85x]

I don't think the stormtrooper is the best example as like the snowtrooper helmet, which is not accurate in the slightest, it is highly glossy; However I will use it as an example here with some renders I put together to explain my point.

The issue w/ the snowtrooper helmet, much like w/ Anovos and their final snowtrooper helmet product, is that yea, they scanned the archive suit, to an extent, but they still had to go in and do some work to the model after the fact. The snowy helmet that we all see from the archives has suffered from either mishandling or taken some falls as the thing has warped and misshapened from it's original form, so it's not as it appeared during filming. I'm sure they could have spent more time to make it look far more accurate and correct, but they really didn't.

 

[TheDragon]

The issue w/ the snowtrooper helmet, much like w/ Anovos and their final snowtrooper helmet product, is that yea, they scanned the archive suit, to an extent, but they still had to go in and do some work to the model after the fact. The snowy helmet that we all see from the archives has suffered from either mishandling or taken some falls as the thing has warped and misshapened from it's original form, so it's not as it appeared during filming. I'm sure they could have spent more time to make it look far more accurate and correct, but they really didn't.

That's why I didn't show the snowtrooper at all, the snowtrooper is the opposite of what you want to be scanning with the current equipment of today and if there isn't a non-warped snowtrooper helmet to scan outside of privately owned hands it makes for the worse nightmare of someone trying to make something useable from what they have, leading to the less than ideal battlefront model.

Although some of the models in the game are scanned there are others that are heavily modified, such as vader and the snowtrooper which I wasnt really interested in due to their very obvious changes.

In regards to the snowtrooper, does it break lineage to fix the misshapen-ness of the prop that has occurred due to age in the years after filming? As if you claim lineage after restoring it to what extent is that now a fan sculpt.

It's actually coincidence you do bring this up, as I'm still going through the models and am in the process of restoring detail to klaatu, with latex and other delicate materials known to deteriorate and fall apart to what extent can you fix a latex mask or such before it's not lineage as well.

 

[blewis17]

Yeah, it's still not "lineage."

I have a long-term project I'm working on now and it's a "restoration" of a Rubies Deluxe Vader helmet, and it's apropos to this topic because it falls into similar parameters. When Don Post was bought by Rubies, Rubies had access to the molds and casts used to make the DP Vader buckets, which came from a production-made helmet years ago. It's believed their Deluxe offering is a heavily altered version of the cast they inherited with simplified details and some additional work to make mass-production, consumer copies easier to manufacture. My project is to restore as much of the original details lost back into it as much as possible by hand. The base form is there, it's 1:1, with traces of many of the original details still there but heavily simplified to make consumer copies easier to produce. My putting back the neutered details, or having to reinterpret others to work with the base mask, still doesn't make it "lineage."

I LOVE that you are "restoring" a Rubies Deluxe, as you said made from Don Post assets used for their Darth Vader deluxe helmet back in the late 1990s (whic appeared to be from TESB, correct?). From the Rubies Deluxe Vaders I have seen, there is noticeable facial "droop" and loss of detail which I assumed was from aging DP molds and/or Rubies just half-@ssing it for production. And the paint application looks bad as well. What have you found so far?