what's the point of multiple rebel transports in the battle of Endor? Did vader quit

Re: what's the point of multiple rebel transports in the battle of Endor? Did vader q

niennumb1 said:
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I'm one of the odd people out whose favorite of all the films is ROTJ. It probably has a lot to do with the times and me being 5 and a half when I saw it that just still hits me as the best. ESB when I was 2, but don't remember the entire experience in theaters in 1980. I also personally loved all the creatures and still believe them all when I see it.
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If I was 5 in 1983 I'd probably be right there with you, but I was 17 years old and I was not prepared for a live action teddy bear picnic.
 
Re: what's the point of multiple rebel transports in the battle of Endor? Did vader q

I saw the OT on first release at ages 2, 5, and 8. Thanks to VHS and laserdisc I saw them many many many times. From first viewing on, I loved Star Wars, but I adored Empire. When Jedi came out... I remember my attention kept wandering during the first act. The only bits that really stayed with me were Oola, cool bounty hunter Boushh, Han being defrosted and his reunion with Chewie, Luke as Jedi Knight and how he killed the rancor when he didn't need to, and the fight at the sarlacc. In general, the movie felt pretty, but a little off. And it took me years to be able to pu my finger on all of the reasons why. Plus, my overall grade was skewed by the Biker Scouts and Royal Guards for a long time, until I learned to spearate out individual elements I either love or hate. I flippin' love those characters. But then there were the Ewoks. Even at 8 years old, something felt fake about them. :unsure

--Jonah
 
Re: what's the point of multiple rebel transports in the battle of Endor? Did vader q

I think it goes to show how hard to judge something is based on walks of life and times in our lives when we saw something. Some younger folks just adore the prequels and don't favor the old ones. Most can't understand why that could possibly be, but then we have discussions like this where it's kinda the same boat.

@dascoyne I can see your point and honestly am not sure how I would freshly react to the end scene of ROTJ as a 17 year-old seeing for the first time vs. growing up with it since childhood. Ewoks were always awesome in my book, but at the same time can understand others' points of view (I'm 37 now).

I think seeing Luke as a Jedi was the ultimate awesome for me and TO THIS DAY, even though the fight wasn't as fast moving and crazy technical as the prequel saber battles, the Luke/Vader final duel will always be the most emotionally intense saber fight of the series because of the storyline and what finally built up to that moment between them. The music was also so hauntingly beautiful as well for that sequence. Light tipping to dark, dark overcome by light when Luke tells the Emperor he'll never turn. From farmboy to Jedi, that was just awesome for me.

They totally botched the Blu-Ray/Special Edition though. I cannot stand the Vader "NOOOO!" In there where it wasn't needed. Absolutely painful. Not to Mention Jedi Rocks, the Sarlaac "enhancements", Hayden replaced as Anakin over Shaw.... The newer finale celebration music is nice, but never had a problem Yub Nubbing, hahaha!
 
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Re: what's the point of multiple rebel transports in the battle of Endor? Did vader q

dascoyne said:
ROTJ is so loaded with inconsistencies of plot and character I find it difficult to regard anything in that film seriously in SW canon.

Four years after a film like, Alien and its stunning creature effects, we have ROTJ that's loaded with 80's television-grade muppets. It pains me to this day.

I'm sorry again for the digression but I just can't stop kicking sand at this one film.
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dascoyne said:
If I was 5 in 1983 I'd probably be right there with you, but I was 17 years old and I was not prepared for a live action teddy bear picnic.
Click to expand...

Inquisitor Peregrinus said:
I saw the OT on first release at ages 2, 5, and 8. Thanks to VHS and laserdisc I saw them many many many times. From first viewing on, I loved Star Wars, but I adored Empire. When Jedi came out... I remember my attention kept wandering during the first act. The only bits that really stayed with me were Oola, cool bounty hunter Boushh, Han being defrosted and his reunion with Chewie, Luke as Jedi Knight and how he killed the rancor when he didn't need to, and the fight at the sarlacc. In general, the movie felt pretty, but a little off. And it took me years to be able to pu my finger on all of the reasons why. Plus, my overall grade was skewed by the Biker Scouts and Royal Guards for a long time, until I learned to spearate out individual elements I either love or hate. I flippin' love those characters. But then there were the Ewoks. Even at 8 years old, something felt fake about them. :unsure

--Jonah
Click to expand...

ROTJ was the only one I saw in the theaters (although I was in attendance for Star Wars in utero). I thought the puppets in ROTJ were believable, at least in Jabba's palace. The ewoks were cute...when I was 5. Once I learned that Lucas had an original idea to use wookiees instead, I instantly knew that would have been way, way cooler. The space battle was pretty cool, though, and remains cool. But hey, no question ROTJ is the weakest of the OT, and is a pretty serious dropoff in quality from the first two films.
 
Re: what's the point of multiple rebel transports in the battle of Endor? Did vader q

I agree. I was 6 when ROTJ came out and I loved it. Later on you start to think that a whole new Death Star was kind of a lame story plot and the Ewoks should have been slaughtered. I still like it though.
 
Re: what's the point of multiple rebel transports in the battle of Endor? Did vader q

I like it. But I don't love it anywhere near the first two. Aside from the fact it's four movies crammed into three, a lot of those individual elements weren't fully thought through. It should have been some other superweapon, but the false intel made the Rebels think it was another Death Star. I have no problem with underdog stories and Lucas liking to use little people -- so have the aliens who help Our Heroes be the children of the wookiees the Empire's using for slave labor, held hostage to force their parents to work. Boba Fett shouldn't have been in it. ILM should have had a couple films' worth of lead time to work on the miniatures and shooting for the Battle of Endor. George should have paid attention to his own film series and comments during costume fitting and actually had Luke's outfit be the Jedi uniform he said it was (i.e., have Anakin's ghost be wearing that instead of the Tatooine outfit Ben was wearing in his residual self-image), and having some continuity in Imperial uniforms to the prior two films. And on and on and on...

--Jonah
 
Re: what's the point of multiple rebel transports in the battle of Endor? Did vader q

I was 18 by the time Jedi came out and the cuteness factor did nothing for me. While I did like the space battle I felt it looked too much like a swarm of bees flying around with no rhyme or reason to anything.

The Ewoks were just cringeworthy. I remember George saying in interviews some stuff like "In literature its always the fuzzy little rabbit on the side of the road that gives you the magic to go on." Can someone please tell me any type of classic myth or literature where some cute little bunny or some such gives the hero the magic to go on?
 
Re: what's the point of multiple rebel transports in the battle of Endor? Did vader q

I was 11 when ROTJ came out, and I was so excited to go see it - all my friends couldn't stop talking about it, and I was a HUGE fan of the first two.
When I finally got to go see it, I was seriously disappointed right from the start. I didn't like the story.
I didn't know what fan fiction was back then, but that's what it struck me as. As though some kids with no imagination were consulted to write the story.
"Let's just rescue Han and get that out of the way, then we'll go blow up another Death Star".
It had it's moments - biker scouts were cool, space battle was cool - but it didn't impact me like Star Wars and Empire Strikes Back did.
I'm actually a little embarrassed that it belongs to the OT.
 
Re: what's the point of multiple rebel transports in the battle of Endor? Did vader q

Laspector said:
I was 18 by the time Jedi came out and the cuteness factor did nothing for me. While I did like the space battle I felt it looked too much like a swarm of bees flying around with no rhyme or reason to anything.

The Ewoks were just cringeworthy. I remember George saying in interviews some stuff like "In literature its always the fuzzy little rabbit on the side of the road that gives you the magic to go on." Can someone please tell me any type of classic myth or literature where some cute little bunny or some such gives the hero the magic to go on?
Click to expand...

Good point. What's weird about that comment is that it kinda rings true...but I can't think of any specific examples. My guess is that's because it comes from generic fairy tales that don't really stick in your mind past about age 6 or 7. To my way of thinking, though, it's less the "fuzzy little bunny" that helps you out, and more the "help from an unexpected source." Lucas used this as the basis for Yoda in ESB, and it fits the fairytale model a lot better than "Then the army of fuzzy bunnies destroyed the knights and their armored horses."
 
Re: what's the point of multiple rebel transports in the battle of Endor? Did vader q

And if you're gonna go that route, at least have it be Hoojibs. :D

What bugs me is Lucas' line of "reasoning". From the earliest draft of Jedi, he did this, so he had over a year to have seen the fallacy. His main objection to using wookiees was the fact that he'd spent two films establishing Chewie as an intelligent, starship-flying, tool-using being, and to show his people as primitives wouldn't work. Then he seized on the "unlikeliest of allies" angle when he toyed with inverting the wookiees into ee-wooks and made them very, very small instead of very, very tall. Never occurred to him that if the Empire had enslaved them, they might be denied access to technology, and that maybe this wasn't their actual homeworld, but just where they were housed while working on the new superweapon. And one of the first things that struck me, and part of why I started my rewrite of ROTJ all those years ago was the thought "Well, they could be small and wookiees if they were kids being held hostage to force their parents to work. I'd call that a pretty unlikely source of aid..."

--Jonah
 
Re: what's the point of multiple rebel transports in the battle of Endor? Did vader q

Inquisitor Peregrinus said:
And if you're gonna go that route, at least have it be Hoojibs. :D

What bugs me is Lucas' line of "reasoning". From the earliest draft of Jedi, he did this, so he had over a year to have seen the fallacy. His main objection to using wookiees was the fact that he'd spent two films establishing Chewie as an intelligent, starship-flying, tool-using being, and to show his people as primitives wouldn't work. Then he seized on the "unlikeliest of allies" angle when he toyed with inverting the wookiees into ee-wooks and made them very, very small instead of very, very tall. Never occurred to him that if the Empire had enslaved them, they might be denied access to technology, and that maybe this wasn't their actual homeworld, but just where they were housed while working on the new superweapon. And one of the first things that struck me, and part of why I started my rewrite of ROTJ all those years ago was the thought "Well, they could be small and wookiees if they were kids being held hostage to force their parents to work. I'd call that a pretty unlikely source of aid..."

--Jonah
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Yeah, but he also missed the difference between "unlikely source of aid" and "totally implausible source of aid."

I'll see your wookiee-children-held-hostage part and raise you. :)

Here's an idea.

The kids are held hostage. The slaves probably could rebel, but (A) think they have no chance, and (B) are afraid to do so in case the Empire kills the kids.

Thus, the Rebels have a three-fold mission:

1. Free the kids and secure them.

2. Free the slaves, and help the rise up against the Empire's garrison.

3. Destroy or disable the shield generator, so the fleet can attack.

You could also have three "factions" in the wookiee camp: the kids, the "technologists" -- the wookiees who concerned themselves with the wider galaxy and embraced technology, and the isolationist/traditionalists who think the technologists' approach brought doom to the wookiee people and led to their enslavement. The isolationists eschew technology, as a result, and generally did not participate in the Clone Wars. Instead, they retreated to the deep jungles of their planet, and lived as their ancestors did, in conjunction with nature.

When the rebels free the children and manage to break the slaves out, they retreat to the isolationist regions of the planet. While the isolationists were initially reluctant to get involved at all, they have found themselves starting to feel the yoke of the Empire on their way of life, too, as Imperial or Trandoshan slavers infiltrate their lands to steal more slaves. Thus, they reluctantly agree to allow the rebels, children, and technologists to enter their lands and find safe haven. They also agree to help the slavers expel the Empire.

In the meantime, the Imperial garrison has figured out where the rebels and slaves are, and is launching an assault to recapture the slaves. In its arrogance, the garrison ends up getting slaughtered because the isolationists' understand how to use nature to their benefit. The technologists, however, enhance things by using stolen Imperial tech and tech provided by the rebels to help the isolationists fight back, and together they defeat the garrison.

Meanwhile, a small strike force infiltrates the shield facility and disables/destroys it, while the Imperial forces are distracted and trying to recapture the slaves, since the Death Star superstructure still isn't completed (even if the laser is operational).

In the end, the isolationists and technologists realize that the wookiee people are stronger together than fragmented, and decide to adjust their society to blend traditionalist practices with an outward engagement with the galaxy and use of technology to some degree.


This, incidentally, would've set up another fun plot point to explore either in the new trilogy, or in side films that would examine how well that plan ultimately worked, and the difficulties in melding the old ways with the new. You could also use it as a source of tension if you want to bring "bad" wookiees into the fold, by having militants decide to go full-tech or full-isolation and do bad things to accomplish that.


Of course, it's harder to market wookiees than teddy bears.
 
Re: what's the point of multiple rebel transports in the battle of Endor? Did vader q

Solo4114 said:
Yeah, but he also missed the difference between "unlikely source of aid" and "totally implausible source of aid."

I'll see your wookiee-children-held-hostage part and raise you. :)

Here's an idea.

The kids are held hostage. The slaves probably could rebel, but (A) think they have no chance, and (B) are afraid to do so in case the Empire kills the kids.

Thus, the Rebels have a three-fold mission:

1. Free the kids and secure them.

2. Free the slaves, and help the rise up against the Empire's garrison.

3. Destroy or disable the shield generator, so the fleet can attack.

You could also have three "factions" in the wookiee camp: the kids, the "technologists" -- the wookiees who concerned themselves with the wider galaxy and embraced technology, and the isolationist/traditionalists who think the technologists' approach brought doom to the wookiee people and led to their enslavement. The isolationists eschew technology, as a result, and generally did not participate in the Clone Wars. Instead, they retreated to the deep jungles of their planet, and lived as their ancestors did, in conjunction with nature.

When the rebels free the children and manage to break the slaves out, they retreat to the isolationist regions of the planet. While the isolationists were initially reluctant to get involved at all, they have found themselves starting to feel the yoke of the Empire on their way of life, too, as Imperial or Trandoshan slavers infiltrate their lands to steal more slaves. Thus, they reluctantly agree to allow the rebels, children, and technologists to enter their lands and find safe haven. They also agree to help the slavers expel the Empire.

In the meantime, the Imperial garrison has figured out where the rebels and slaves are, and is launching an assault to recapture the slaves. In its arrogance, the garrison ends up getting slaughtered because the isolationists' understand how to use nature to their benefit. The technologists, however, enhance things by using stolen Imperial tech and tech provided by the rebels to help the isolationists fight back, and together they defeat the garrison.

Meanwhile, a small strike force infiltrates the shield facility and disables/destroys it, while the Imperial forces are distracted and trying to recapture the slaves, since the Death Star superstructure still isn't completed (even if the laser is operational).

In the end, the isolationists and technologists realize that the wookiee people are stronger together than fragmented, and decide to adjust their society to blend traditionalist practices with an outward engagement with the galaxy and use of technology to some degree.


This, incidentally, would've set up another fun plot point to explore either in the new trilogy, or in side films that would examine how well that plan ultimately worked, and the difficulties in melding the old ways with the new. You could also use it as a source of tension if you want to bring "bad" wookiees into the fold, by having militants decide to go full-tech or full-isolation and do bad things to accomplish that.


Of course, it's harder to market wookiees than teddy bears.
Click to expand...
Star Wars: Beyond Thunderdome?

--------

At the end of ESB Luke was still an impulsive apprentice. In 1983 I felt cheated since we never saw the completion of the arc of him mastering himself and becoming a Jedi.
Even his first appearance as a Jedi should be a monumental intro but his first act is to fall into a pit - the oldest trick in the book. I feel a Jedi would be the last person to be tricked like that.

In fact the film is full of cheap tropes - the "I'm carrying an explosive device" threat; the "prop open the monster's mouth with a stick/bone" trick ... etc.

In ANH the music cantina scene was just alien enough that I could still believe this was another world. In contrast Jabba's cabaret singers and dancers (like the pod race commentators in PM) were so meta all sense of immersion was lost.

By the end of ESB Han was still a smirking scoundrel, too cool to say those three words back to Leia. In ROTJ he's inexplicably become a romantic sap. I accept that he'd end up this way but there was no transition at all.

In terms of design and effects there wasn't much that was new. Everything was just bigger or more numerous.
 
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Re: what's the point of multiple rebel transports in the battle of Endor? Did vader q

I think the stuff you're talking about is ultimately the result of what Peregrinus was mentioning -- that you really need, like, four movies to accomplish what they tried to do with three.

I've felt the same way about the PT, too, actually. TPM feels like a totally separate film that has next to nothing to do with the rest of the story, and there seems to be a missing transition between TPM and AOTC, and then again for AOTC and ROTS.
 
Re: what's the point of multiple rebel transports in the battle of Endor? Did vader q

I agree that four films would have served the story better.
But it's one thing if they tried to cram two movies into ROTJ, but instead it's as if they just got rid of one film entirely. I just so happens the "missing" film has the climax of major story arcs.
 
Re: what's the point of multiple rebel transports in the battle of Endor? Did vader q

Actually, I was saying ROTJ is four films crammed into one. Lucas' original notes call for twelve films -- six focusing on Obi-Wan, six focusing on Luke; then nine, as he decided there was only enough story potential for three Obi-Wan films (but still six for Luke). It wasn't until after ESB that he was getting burned out and only wanted to do one more. The third act was supposed to be Leia, Chewie, and Lando trying unsuccessfully to rescue Han, then Luke the Jedi Knight shows up to save the day. Similar to what we got in the first act of ROTJ, but better paced and structured a bit differently.

The whole third trilogy was to be about the lead-up to the final battle, the final battle, and Luke triumphing over the Dark Side despite temptation.

--Jonah
 
Re: what's the point of multiple rebel transports in the battle of Endor? Did vader q

dascoyne said:
If I was 5 in 1983 I'd probably be right there with you, but I was 17 years old and I was not prepared for a live action teddy bear picnic.
Click to expand...

I was eight when it came out,saw it...gawd must have been sometimes in 1984 or 1985 and I was nine or ten and I still thought it was a bit stupid! especially the ewoks they were my Jar-Jar :facepalm

That film was/is important as it ended that part of SW but it was far from being the best film,frankly even the first two had problems but were good for there time.

What gets me is as I've gotten older I see some of the ideas they had but never used and I see SW could have been much more interesting,but for what it is it's good.
 
Re: what's the point of multiple rebel transports in the battle of Endor? Did vader q

Krull said:
I was eight when it came out,saw it...gawd must have been sometimes in 1984 or 1985 and I was nine or ten and I still thought it was a bit stupid! especially the ewoks they were my Jar-Jar :facepalm

That film was/is important as it ended that part of SW but it was far from being the best film,frankly even the first two had problems but were good for there time.

What gets me is as I've gotten older I see some of the ideas they had but never used and I see SW could have been much more interesting,but for what it is it's good.
Click to expand...

I think that's actually fairly widespread amongst fans. When you've watched and rewatched and rerererererewatched a film, even one as enjoyable as Star Wars, you can see how the same ideas could've been handled in a more interesting fashion, or could've been expanded upon.

But, to be fair, a lot of the gripes we pick out are only because we've watched the films so many times. I mean, I never, ever noticed that there were only, like, four models of ships larger than starfighters for the Rebels. Likewise, I literally never stopped to ask "Hey, how come the Empire only uses, like, two big capital ship types?" In the moment, and within the story, it's a lot less noticeable, especially upon initial viewing. It's only after the umpteen-gajillionth time watching it at home where I can pause and go frame-by-frame that I start noticing that sort of thing. And to be honest....that's not really how these films were ever meant to be looked at.

Like, you're not supposed to look at a pointilist painting and say "Man. He really sucked at keeping his dots even in size... And you can see where he re-dipped his brush here because there's inconsistency even within the same color of dots." You're supposed to stand back and take it in, while simultaneously marveling at the work necessary to make it happen and the overall effect of that work.

Likewise, I think films are meant to be viewed as a whole, and experienced in a sitting, straight through, without a break. It's nice that we can do bathroom breaks and grab a beer and such, but the ability to do that doesn't mean that that's how the film was designed to be viewed. So, it's not really fair to take the film to task just because Luke makes a derpy face if you freeze the frame at 1:29:03.


In terms of the Rebel models and such, at the time, the visual impact of the fleet was that it was a really large fleet. Larger than anything we'd seen before in the franchise. WAY larger than the small group of fighters that attack the Death Star in the first film. And there's a lot more visual variety within that fleet than anything we'd seen. So, yeah, we can mull over why you'd be using supposedly lightly armed and armored transport ships in a frontal assault on a battlestation, but really they're just there because the models were on hand and they added some visual variety.
 
Re: what's the point of multiple rebel transports in the battle of Endor? Did vader q

To go back to the original question...

Perhaps the transports were simply supplies or more troops to bolster the strike team on Endor once the shield was down. The Alliance almost certainly didn't expect to run into that enormous Imperial fleet, afterall...
 
Re: what's the point of multiple rebel transports in the battle of Endor? Did vader q

Wolfsburg said:
To go back to the original question...

Perhaps the transports were simply supplies or more troops to bolster the strike team on Endor once the shield was down. The Alliance almost certainly didn't expect to run into that enormous Imperial fleet, afterall...
Click to expand...
But following the logic of their mission, there was really no need for capital ships on the staging ground at all.

Sent from my SM-N910W8 using Tapatalk
 
Re: what's the point of multiple rebel transports in the battle of Endor? Did vader q

astroboy said:
But following the logic of their mission, there was really no need for capital ships on the staging ground at all.

Sent from my SM-N910W8 using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

Au contraire. Capital ships force the Empire to focus on them. Send fighter and bomber squadrons to attack them, send whatever capital ships are there to attack, target all primary laser banks on them, etc. This, in turn, allows the opening for the fighters to fly into the superstructure and destroy the core.

The Empire's focus has always been "big." This was ultimately their Achilles heel. They never saw the "small" threat coming until it was too late. So, hey, why expect them to suddenly wise up at Endor?
 
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