The AI thread(t)

joberg,
I recently went back to your launching of this thread. Spotted your comment on our present computer using 0’s and 1’s along with your comment regarding quantum computing. Just recently IBM claimed on the news that they have developed a quantum computer ( research that has been going on for some time, so I am not sure of the actual degree of accomplishment). What I fear is not the development of AI in the near term. The “negative“ use of quantum computing is far more scary.

The most difficult calculation used to take days and weeks by UNIVAC. Minutes today using digital calculators, relatively speaking. But, that is one calculation (one WW-2 Enigma Code or Japan code in a minute for example). Today, Newton’s gravity calculation needs Einstein’s theory of relativity added for proper celestial navigation to permit landing on planets and asteroids.

A true quantum computer handles hundreds of codes simultaneously. Many mysteries solved and processes simplified.
Negative: No financial code or pass word is safe, wealth of terrorist weapons of mass production & delivery, incurable COVID.
Positive: Photosynthesis chemistry formulas made easy, climate change rectified, unlimited energy readily available from sun (photons), no starvation, cancer conquered.
 
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Searun said:
joberg,
I recently went back to your launching of this thread. Spotted your comment on our present computer using 0’s and 1’s along with your comment regarding quantum computing. Just recently IBM claimed on the news that they have developed a quantum computer ( research that has been going on for some time, so I am not sure of the actual degree of accomplishment). What I fear is not the development of AI in the near term. The “negative“ use of quantum computing is far more scary.

The most difficult calculation used to take days and weeks by UNIVAC. Minutes today using digital calculators, relatively speaking. But, that is one calculation (one WW-2 Enigma Code or Japan code in a minute for example). Today, Newton’s gravity calculation needs Einstein’s theory of relativity added for proper celestial navigation to permit landing on planets and asteroids.

A true quantum computer handles hundreds of codes simultaneously. Many mysteries solved and processes simplified.
Negative: No financial code or pass word is safe, wealth of terrorist weapons of mass production & delivery, incurable COVID.
Positive: Photosynthesis chemistry formulas made easy, climate change rectified, unlimited energy readily available from sun (photons), no starvation, cancer conquered.
Click to expand...
Searun, I like your optimism...saying that; we might have the solution to very complex issues given to us by an almighty machine; but it's up to us, human, to implement said solution. I'm afraid that we cannot change human nature: it's in our DNA.
Not holding my breath on many complex issues waiting for a great outcome (starvation for example):(;)
 
joberg said:
Searun, I like your optimism...saying that; we might have the solution to very complex issues given to us by an almighty machine; but it's up to us, human, to implement said solution. I'm afraid that we cannot change human nature: it's in our DNA.
Not holding my breath on many complex issues waiting for a great outcome (starvation for example):(;)
Click to expand...
The likelihood of humans continuing to act human is a given. Look up any course on "Empire"s and you will find the basic recipe for tyrranical rule and oppression are 1) A human 2) The tools necessary for that human to reign over or destroy other humans in order to enjoy a sense of overlordship (regardless of true happiness or its sources).

Humans are / have been / and always will be in search of power and the ability to claim lordship over all others. This is true even when absolute prosperity and happiness abounds for all currently living. It is a historical fact and all previous industrial revolutions were used to this end. They were not used to better society. They were used to eliminate large masses of workers and to ensure more power was concentrated in fewer people.

At the beginning of this thread, one person mentioned this. That person is now banned from the rpf. I do not know why but the point is this, AI will, is, and was already used to eliminate the cost of certain services that were previously rendered by humans. If this were not true, there would not be the current global movement to eliminate crops and herds. Food is for people. Eliminating food sources through aggressive global movements can only point to an assumption, by someone, that there is a large surplus of unneeded people. The growing of crops in factories or in farms run entirely by machines and AI can only point to the need for a controlled amount of food for people who are not intending to be farmers and not intending to support farmers nor the communities in which they live. The building of vast drone and robotic armies / munitions points to the need for an army without a conscience. Although, previously pr'd as a way to keep soldiers out of harms way, it is actually just a way to not need human soldiers.

The issue is not if AI will decide humans are a threat or unnecessary. The issue is one human, in control of AI, who decides to rule the world.
 
The "ultimate weapon" always falls into the wrong hands, yet everyone seems surprised whenever this happens.

The problem isn't that people are hopelessly bad, it is just that it only takes a few people to destroy what was accomplished by the vast majority.

Civility and civilization are both fragile balances.
 
greenmachines said:
The likelihood of humans continuing to act human is a given. Look up any course on "Empire"s and you will find the basic recipe for tyrranical rule and oppression are 1) A human 2) The tools necessary for that human to reign over or destroy other humans in order to enjoy a sense of overlordship (regardless of true happiness or its sources).

Humans are / have been / and always will be in search of power and the ability to claim lordship over all others. This is true even when absolute prosperity and happiness abounds for all currently living. It is a historical fact and all previous industrial revolutions were used to this end. They were not used to better society. They were used to eliminate large masses of workers and to ensure more power was concentrated in fewer people.

At the beginning of this thread, one person mentioned this. That person is now banned from the rpf. I do not know why but the point is this, AI will, is, and was already used to eliminate the cost of certain services that were previously rendered by humans. If this were not true, there would not be the current global movement to eliminate crops and herds. Food is for people. Eliminating food sources through aggressive global movements can only point to an assumption, by someone, that there is a large surplus of unneeded people. The growing of crops in factories or in farms run entirely by machines and AI can only point to the need for a controlled amount of food for people who are not intending to be farmers and not intending to support farmers nor the communities in which they live. The building of vast drone and robotic armies / munitions points to the need for an army without a conscience. Although, previously pr'd as a way to keep soldiers out of harms way, it is actually just a way to not need human soldiers.

The issue is not if AI will decide humans are a threat or unnecessary. The issue is one human, in control of AI, who decides to rule the world.
Click to expand...
The food shortage is a false problem; most food is produced and consumed locally.

The problem is two-fold:
1: Best before dates: supermarkets/others have a tendency (for legal reason and fear of lawsuits) to keep food past their BBD)...hence, throwing perfectly edible food into dumpsters. More and more groups/charities are organizing the raiding of those dumpsters to re-sell "expired" food into local owned store. It seems to be a trend.
Some countries will do away with the BBD and you'll have to do the "nose test" to see if your food is going bad or not (England, Canada).

2: Food wasted by the consumers: 30% to 40% of food wastage is done every year in the U.S. (60 million tones or 120 billion pounds).
Some of the reasons:
  • Confusing labels that lead to premature disposal of edible food
  • Oversized servings and containers that result in more leftovers
  • The quest for perfect produce that rejects imperfect but nutritious crops
  • No food waste tracking that prevents accurate measurement and reduction of waste
  • Overstocked stores that create an illusion of abundance and encourage overbuying
  • Lack of accessible food rescue and recycling services that could donate or compost surplus food
The model for distribution/consuming food has to be re-organized in a more sustainable manner.
 
joberg said:
The food shortage is a false problem; most food is produced and consumed locally.

The problem is two-fold:
1: Best before dates: supermarkets/others have a tendency (for legal reason and fear of lawsuits) to keep food past their BBD)...hence, throwing perfectly edible food into dumpsters. More and more groups/charities are organizing the raiding of those dumpsters to re-sell "expired" food into local owned store. It seems to be a trend.
Some countries will do away with the BBD and you'll have to do the "nose test" to see if your food is going bad or not (England, Canada).

2: Food wasted by the consumers: 30% to 40% of food wastage is done every year in the U.S. (60 million tones or 120 billion pounds).
Some of the reasons:
  • Confusing labels that lead to premature disposal of edible food
  • Oversized servings and containers that result in more leftovers
  • The quest for perfect produce that rejects imperfect but nutritious crops
  • No food waste tracking that prevents accurate measurement and reduction of waste
  • Overstocked stores that create an illusion of abundance and encourage overbuying
  • Lack of accessible food rescue and recycling services that could donate or compost surplus food
The model for distribution/consuming food has to be re-organized in a more sustainable manner.
Click to expand...
In the US, we have for several years been driving farmers out of business. Fertilizer sources are regulated out of existence and regulatory fees and taxes continue to hobble entire corporations. Not to mention a sudden nationwide flu that causes farm and industrial fires. I say flu because it seems there is no cure, so it must be viral. The turnover rate of working farms to dry land is faster than during the dustbowl. We don't have a Current food shortage, that really is a myth, we have a coming food shortage and that is a plan. I know that the electric movement has so many sides to that conversation but just pointing out that 33 percent of all produce vegetables are grown in California and not even Tesla is making electric farm equipment en mass to come to terms with the newly required robotic/AI/electrification of that state.
 
Last edited:
joberg said:
2: Food wasted by the consumers: 30% to 40% of food wastage is done every year in the U.S. (60 million tones or 120 billion pounds).
Some of the reasons:
  • Confusing labels that lead to premature disposal of edible food
  • Oversized servings and containers that result in more leftovers
  • The quest for perfect produce that rejects imperfect but nutritious crops
  • No food waste tracking that prevents accurate measurement and reduction of waste
  • Overstocked stores that create an illusion of abundance and encourage overbuying
  • Lack of accessible food rescue and recycling services that could donate or compost surplus food
Click to expand...
-The existence of small children
I'm curious of the percentage of goldfish crackers that are actually eaten vs thrown on the ground and crushed.
 
greenmachines said:
In the US, we have for several years been driving farmers out of business. Fertilizer sources are regulated out of existence and regulatory fees and taxes continue to hobble entire corporations. Not to mention a sudden nationwide flu that causes farm and industrial fires. I say flu because it seems there is no cure, so it must be viral. The turnover rate of working farms to dry land is faster than during the dustbowl. We don't have a Current food shortage, that really is a myth, we have a coming food shortage and that is a plan. I know that the electric movement has so many sides to that conversation but just pointing out that 33 percent of all produce vegetables are grown in California and not even Tesla is making electric farm equipment en mass to come to terms with the newly required robotic/AI/electrification of that state.
Click to expand...
We have to re-think how farming will be organized for the future for sure. The model has to go through a reorganization from top to bottom.
Robots are used more and more on farms to alleviate work loads on farmers.
There's a price to pay for all consumers who want bananas/avocados or other off-season fruit in their supermarket. Pollution in transportation is one of the main problem, of course. It's a complex challenge for the future...

Forbes numbers:
Over the last few years, many farmers have experienced low commodity prices, high production costs, increasing agricultural land values, increasing cash rents, increasing labor costs, and high capital barriers to entry, among other problems. Off-farm income, which many farmers rely on, has also been a challenge given COVID-19 restrictions and inadequate broadband access. For many highly leveraged farmers, including new and beginning farmers, low commodity prices and high input costs could not be sustained.
Over the last decade, there have been nearly 5,000 farm bankruptcies – less than a quarter-percent of all farm operations in the U.S. Based on a survey conducted by the Association of Chapter 12 Trustees, more than half of these filings were likely to complete a Chapter 12 reorganization or negotiate a mutually acceptable outcome, which may result in a dismissal of the case or conversion to Chapter 7 (Farm Bankruptcies Slow, More Aid Needed)
 
joberg said:
We have to re-think how farming will be organized for the future for sure. The model has to go through a reorganization from top to bottom.
Robots are used more and more on farms to alleviate work loads on farmers.
There's a price to pay for all consumers who want bananas/avocados or other off-season fruit in their supermarket. Pollution in transportation is one of the main problem, of course. It's a complex challenge for the future...

Forbes numbers:
Over the last few years, many farmers have experienced low commodity prices, high production costs, increasing agricultural land values, increasing cash rents, increasing labor costs, and high capital barriers to entry, among other problems. Off-farm income, which many farmers rely on, has also been a challenge given COVID-19 restrictions and inadequate broadband access. For many highly leveraged farmers, including new and beginning farmers, low commodity prices and high input costs could not be sustained.
Over the last decade, there have been nearly 5,000 farm bankruptcies – less than a quarter-percent of all farm operations in the U.S. Based on a survey conducted by the Association of Chapter 12 Trustees, more than half of these filings were likely to complete a Chapter 12 reorganization or negotiate a mutually acceptable outcome, which may result in a dismissal of the case or conversion to Chapter 7 (Farm Bankruptcies Slow, More Aid Needed)
Click to expand...
The numbers not shown in that report are those that did not file but sold out instead. Bill Gates continues to hit front page investment news for buying active agriculture land. They are not bankruptcies and will not show up nor will foreclosures as they do not necessitate a bankruptcy only that the foreclosure proceeding removes the land from the farmers possesion, whether by a bank or the IRS. Only those that believe that filing will allow them to restructure or avoid future debt would bother to file. Most just move on. The electrification and AI process in California has not yet fully been implemented. As it unfolds, ownership will change hands. Too many farmers who stay afloat on manual labor that they themselves provide using resources that are not electric and cannot be replaced without extreme cost. This is another wave of combine purchase / land repossession that was seen in the midwest when large equipment drove prices down by masking the cost in the payments needed in the future for the equipment. The cost didn't really drop, it was hidden in equipment loans. A fully implemented AI farm would be impressive but it will be owned by someone who doesn't live there today.
 
As of 2021, Chinese entities and individuals owned about 384,000 acres of U.S. agricultural land, less than 1% of all U.S. agricultural land held by foreign persons, according to the latest data from the U.S. Department of Agriculture (USDA).

Funny that Canada is the biggest farm land owner in the U.S. with 12.8 million acreso_O:eek:;)

Also, a topic that's rarely discussed is the suicide rate of farmers:


  • Suicide rates in agriculture are higher than for any other occupation: 84.5 per 100,000 people, according to the Centers for Disease Control.

  • Studies suggest suicide rates may be higher as some deaths are reported as accidents rather than suicides.

  • Not all farm states are included in CDC farm suicide statics (California, Iowa, Illinois, and Nebraska are excluded), further skewing the numbers.

  • Suicide rates appear to be higher in the Midwest than in California because of the diversified nature of agriculture in California and the greater likelihood of financial profitability among crops grown in the Golden State.

  • Access to mental health services remain limited to farmers because of the rural nature of their occupations.

  • Suicide rates are about 50 percent higher today than they were during the farm crisis of the 1980s.
 
joberg said:
We have to re-think how farming will be organized for the future for sure. The model has to go through a reorganization from top to bottom.
Robots are used more and more on farms to alleviate work loads on farmers.
There's a price to pay for all consumers who want bananas/avocados or other off-season fruit in their supermarket. Pollution in transportation is one of the main problem, of course. It's a complex challenge for the future...
Click to expand...

Well, if you are going to use robots as workers on a farm, it’s essential that they speak Boche, as I understand it.

Right, Beru?

IMG_2431.jpeg
 
Farmers:
In the trades and complex construction my experience with “x-farmers has always been they demonstrated work ethic & ability. The Can Do attitude is a force multiplier. Not sure how AI robots will be programmed with those characteristics.
 
joberg said:
As of 2021, Chinese entities and individuals owned about 384,000 acres of U.S. agricultural land, less than 1% of all U.S. agricultural land held by foreign persons, according to the latest data from the U.S. Department of Agriculture (USDA).

Funny that Canada is the biggest farm land owner in the U.S. with 12.8 million acreso_O:eek:;)

Also, a topic that's rarely discussed is the suicide rate of farmers:


  • Suicide rates in agriculture are higher than for any other occupation: 84.5 per 100,000 people, according to the Centers for Disease Control.

  • Studies suggest suicide rates may be higher as some deaths are reported as accidents rather than suicides.

  • Not all farm states are included in CDC farm suicide statics (California, Iowa, Illinois, and Nebraska are excluded), further skewing the numbers.

  • Suicide rates appear to be higher in the Midwest than in California because of the diversified nature of agriculture in California and the greater likelihood of financial profitability among crops grown in the Golden State.

  • Access to mental health services remain limited to farmers because of the rural nature of their occupations.

  • Suicide rates are about 50 percent higher today than they were during the farm crisis of the 1980s.
Click to expand...
This is exactly what followed the seed exchange in India. When US seed producers began contracting inside the country, the system melted and suicide was the end. I have friends in IT there that previously were farm families but all that land is now owned by huge automated farming entities.
 
Searun said:
Farmers:
In the trades and complex construction my experience with “x-farmers has always been they demonstrated work ethic & ability. The Can Do attitude is a force multiplier. Not sure how AI robots will be programmed with those characteristics.
Click to expand...
Whether we like it or not; we're going into another kind of future. You know; "evolution" doesn't necessarily mean progress.
Change, limits, decay and death are the four ineluctable constants of our life :(
 

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