Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Pre-release)
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Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII (Pre-release)
If the prequels are any indication, it doesn't matter how much knowledge and/or experience a Jedi had. They were all ineffective teachers.
If the prequels are any indication, it doesn't matter how much knowledge and/or experience a Jedi had. They were all ineffective teachers.
cboath
Master Member
Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII (Pre-release)
Perhaps that's why he's searched out the jedi temple?
he tried to teach, and it didn't go well and then he realized his teaching was woefully short of the norm and he had no clue what he was really doing? So, search out the temple and hope it had some records/holo's/whatever of how/what to teach.
Perhaps that's why he's searched out the jedi temple?
he tried to teach, and it didn't go well and then he realized his teaching was woefully short of the norm and he had no clue what he was really doing? So, search out the temple and hope it had some records/holo's/whatever of how/what to teach.
mattycsi
Master Member
Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII (Pre-release)
Only to find that that the guy that taught him woefully screwed it up too, and the guy that taught him kinda set him up for it and the the big teach failed to see any of it coming. And then he didn't feel too bad about it at all.
Only to find that that the guy that taught him woefully screwed it up too, and the guy that taught him kinda set him up for it and the the big teach failed to see any of it coming. And then he didn't feel too bad about it at all.
Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII (Pre-release)
No that wasn't why they failed at all. They even tell you in the movie they became over confident and arrogant. It's even obvious they can fight extremely well in the movies. You're confusing "ineffective" with not teaching the right way or the right things.
No that wasn't why they failed at all. They even tell you in the movie they became over confident and arrogant. It's even obvious they can fight extremely well in the movies. You're confusing "ineffective" with not teaching the right way or the right things.
cboath
Master Member
Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII (Pre-release)
You can still teach right for the most part, but focus on the wrong things.
In searching out the FIRST temple - ostensibly from thousands of years ago - he can learn how things were supposed to be instead of how they got to where they were. And for that matter, there's no clue Luke knows how bad they got in the days of the prequels. Unless yoda told him off screen where we never saw it or something which would be non-canon at this point.
Maybe the flashback seen with yoda and post ben-turning Yoda re-appears to luke after ages and says "my fault this is, did not fully train you did I...lost our way did the jedi. Seek out the first temple and return the jedi to what they were and what they're supposed to be...'
You can still teach right for the most part, but focus on the wrong things.
In searching out the FIRST temple - ostensibly from thousands of years ago - he can learn how things were supposed to be instead of how they got to where they were. And for that matter, there's no clue Luke knows how bad they got in the days of the prequels. Unless yoda told him off screen where we never saw it or something which would be non-canon at this point.
Maybe the flashback seen with yoda and post ben-turning Yoda re-appears to luke after ages and says "my fault this is, did not fully train you did I...lost our way did the jedi. Seek out the first temple and return the jedi to what they were and what they're supposed to be...'
Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII (Pre-release)
Sluis, whether it's a person teaching the wrong thing, or not teaching the right way, that's still ineffective teaching. The bottom line I'm trying to lay out here is that the Jedi became arrogant and over confident through their teachings. To the Jedi, being arrogant and over confident was their 'real way' of continuing the Jedi Knights. I would trust Rey teaching what she currently knows of the Force than any Jedi from the previous movies who have 30-900 years of knowledge and experience.
Sluis, whether it's a person teaching the wrong thing, or not teaching the right way, that's still ineffective teaching. The bottom line I'm trying to lay out here is that the Jedi became arrogant and over confident through their teachings. To the Jedi, being arrogant and over confident was their 'real way' of continuing the Jedi Knights. I would trust Rey teaching what she currently knows of the Force than any Jedi from the previous movies who have 30-900 years of knowledge and experience.
Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII (Pre-release)
That doesn't make sense either. I'm pretty sure a Jedi who isn't fully trained that is training a person who is Force sensitive could very easily lead them to the Dark Side. The "teacher" in this case doesn't even know enough about what they're teaching.
That doesn't make sense either. I'm pretty sure a Jedi who isn't fully trained that is training a person who is Force sensitive could very easily lead them to the Dark Side. The "teacher" in this case doesn't even know enough about what they're teaching.
therethere
Active Member
Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII (Pre-release)
I'm guessing that no matter what anyone hypothesises, speculates or bitches about, it's going to be a Star Wars movie... a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away....
I'm guessing that no matter what anyone hypothesises, speculates or bitches about, it's going to be a Star Wars movie... a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away....
JD
Master Member
Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII (Pre-release)
While I have been critical of TFA at times - I have kinda shied away from the idea that it's a "remake" of ANH, there are definitely some strong similarities that go a little too far at times... I do think this guy managed to put new angle into TFA copying not (just) ANH, but parts of the entire OT... he managed to sum it up quite nicely. While I don't agree with everything 100%, it is an enjoyable watch and puts a different spin or perspective to it all.
(...and despite my criticisms of TFA - I still enjoyed the heck out of it).
While I have been critical of TFA at times - I have kinda shied away from the idea that it's a "remake" of ANH, there are definitely some strong similarities that go a little too far at times... I do think this guy managed to put new angle into TFA copying not (just) ANH, but parts of the entire OT... he managed to sum it up quite nicely. While I don't agree with everything 100%, it is an enjoyable watch and puts a different spin or perspective to it all.
(...and despite my criticisms of TFA - I still enjoyed the heck out of it).
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Jaitea
Master Member
Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII (Pre-release)
Yes,....this is what JJ himself has said & hinted at:
And sure enough, he has a response to complaints that The Force Awakens leans too heavily on homages from the original trilogy. "I can understand that someone might say, 'Oh, it's a complete rip-off!' " he says, adding, "What was important for me was introducing brand new characters using relationships that were embracing the history that we know to tell a story that is new — to go backwards to go forwards."
J
Yes,....this is what JJ himself has said & hinted at:
And sure enough, he has a response to complaints that The Force Awakens leans too heavily on homages from the original trilogy. "I can understand that someone might say, 'Oh, it's a complete rip-off!' " he says, adding, "What was important for me was introducing brand new characters using relationships that were embracing the history that we know to tell a story that is new — to go backwards to go forwards."
J
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Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII (Pre-release)
Only about half of the "familiar beats" were needed for effect. Another Death Star being the primary offender. And Ep. 8 will need at least a few call backs to the original trilogy for familiarity. If the story strays too far too quickly, it's not going to feel like Star Wars at all.
Only about half of the "familiar beats" were needed for effect. Another Death Star being the primary offender. And Ep. 8 will need at least a few call backs to the original trilogy for familiarity. If the story strays too far too quickly, it's not going to feel like Star Wars at all.
JD
Master Member
Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII (Pre-release)
There are quite a few of these beats that I could have done without... yes, the Death Starkiller is the biggest and most obvious. Jakku - or Tatooine by another name is another.... you can come up with all the backstory you want, Jakku still looks, feels and basically really is Tatooine. I think these are much more legitimate critiques than the the Mary Sue argument (which I still find terribly thin and bordering on misogyny at times - too often those promoting that theory fall into those traps).
We can (and probably will) nitpick TFA forever - that doesn't have to take away the enjoyment of it.
I understand what JJ was doing. He wanted safe and familiar - and it obviously worked. Mythology often repeats, so it's easy to see why TFA works on different levels. But, a few tweaks might've made it seem a little less outright derivative.
There are quite a few of these beats that I could have done without... yes, the Death Starkiller is the biggest and most obvious. Jakku - or Tatooine by another name is another.... you can come up with all the backstory you want, Jakku still looks, feels and basically really is Tatooine. I think these are much more legitimate critiques than the the Mary Sue argument (which I still find terribly thin and bordering on misogyny at times - too often those promoting that theory fall into those traps).
We can (and probably will) nitpick TFA forever - that doesn't have to take away the enjoyment of it.
I understand what JJ was doing. He wanted safe and familiar - and it obviously worked. Mythology often repeats, so it's easy to see why TFA works on different levels. But, a few tweaks might've made it seem a little less outright derivative.
Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII (Pre-release)
First of all, why the creepy Unsolved Mysteries music vibe?
Personally for me, you could say anything was a rip off pulled from any film in the world. It's nothing new that people go seek help from elders or fill in the blank... good vs. evil battles... they happen in ALL films... infiltrating a base... it's done ALL THE TIME. So all that aside...
The ONLY thing I felt was similar was a Death Star-like base made a lot bigger, being an actual planet it seems vs. being a completely engineered station. The rest is garbage claims because of said elements you see used in films all the time. There will always be personal conflicts, information to hide, sneaking into places, disabling systems/shields. Yes these things are in other Star Wars films, just like lightsaber duels... so isn't every film then copying each other?
I felt a lot of the stuff in the film was new to me. I think there were wonderful homages paid to the OT for sure, but I don't think anything backtracked at all. I think it was beautifully orchestrated and had a great balance of keeping the new characters at the forefront while making it feel very much at home with what we love by at least including some of our favorite characters on the sidelines without being too much in-your-face.
- There will always be a new evil to sprout up after bringing down another
- There will always be a base where the bad guys are stationed
- There will always be a menacing leader to bully and push others around or torture to get what they're looking for
- There will always be secret information needing to keep hidden from the other side
- There can be no conflict without 2 sides of extreme differences
- There are such thing as more than one place with the same living conditions as another (i.e. deserts)
AND - There can only exist only so many weather conditions and vegetation on planets
I can see where people are arguing aspects of the film being a "rip-off" but I can't see it that way because there are literally hundreds of other films that have similar elements in them that anyone could argue was a rip-off from another film idea. You could make that claim with so many movies. "Oh my gosh some old guy is training a young man to be a warrior on this TV show. That's such a rip-off of Luke being trained by Yoda." Come on...
First of all, why the creepy Unsolved Mysteries music vibe?
Personally for me, you could say anything was a rip off pulled from any film in the world. It's nothing new that people go seek help from elders or fill in the blank... good vs. evil battles... they happen in ALL films... infiltrating a base... it's done ALL THE TIME. So all that aside...
The ONLY thing I felt was similar was a Death Star-like base made a lot bigger, being an actual planet it seems vs. being a completely engineered station. The rest is garbage claims because of said elements you see used in films all the time. There will always be personal conflicts, information to hide, sneaking into places, disabling systems/shields. Yes these things are in other Star Wars films, just like lightsaber duels... so isn't every film then copying each other?
I felt a lot of the stuff in the film was new to me. I think there were wonderful homages paid to the OT for sure, but I don't think anything backtracked at all. I think it was beautifully orchestrated and had a great balance of keeping the new characters at the forefront while making it feel very much at home with what we love by at least including some of our favorite characters on the sidelines without being too much in-your-face.
- There will always be a new evil to sprout up after bringing down another
- There will always be a base where the bad guys are stationed
- There will always be a menacing leader to bully and push others around or torture to get what they're looking for
- There will always be secret information needing to keep hidden from the other side
- There can be no conflict without 2 sides of extreme differences
- There are such thing as more than one place with the same living conditions as another (i.e. deserts)
AND - There can only exist only so many weather conditions and vegetation on planets
I can see where people are arguing aspects of the film being a "rip-off" but I can't see it that way because there are literally hundreds of other films that have similar elements in them that anyone could argue was a rip-off from another film idea. You could make that claim with so many movies. "Oh my gosh some old guy is training a young man to be a warrior on this TV show. That's such a rip-off of Luke being trained by Yoda." Come on...
seelsa73
Sr Member
Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII (Pre-release)
But we're not talking about, for instance, taking an idea from the borne movies and using them for a James Bond movie. We're talking about reusing exact story points from earlier within the same franchise. There's a big difference between what you're saying and what's being bandied about here.
But we're not talking about, for instance, taking an idea from the borne movies and using them for a James Bond movie. We're talking about reusing exact story points from earlier within the same franchise. There's a big difference between what you're saying and what's being bandied about here.
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Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII (Pre-release)
Yeah, it's not just "similar elements". This is exact scene for scene derivatives, and WAY too many of them. I understand having 2 or 3. Most sequels will repeat a joke, a line or a scene from it's predecessor, (which I still find irritating 99% of the time) It was just a little heavy handed, that's all.
Yeah, it's not just "similar elements". This is exact scene for scene derivatives, and WAY too many of them. I understand having 2 or 3. Most sequels will repeat a joke, a line or a scene from it's predecessor, (which I still find irritating 99% of the time) It was just a little heavy handed, that's all.
KrangPrime
Master Member
Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII (Pre-release)
don't you dare diss luke be a jedi tonight ;o)
better than dancing to the thriller ;o)
don't you dare diss luke be a jedi tonight ;o)
better than dancing to the thriller ;o)
Jaitea
Master Member
Re: Star Wars: Episode VIII (Pre-release)
I honestly have no idea what you are talking about,....really
J
I honestly have no idea what you are talking about,....really
J
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