Star Wars: The Force Awakens (Pre-release)

[Bryancd]

Basically JD wants a Star Wars movie that has nothing to do with Star Wars as we know it.

More to the point SW exactly how he see's it in his head and any other version is deluded fan service.

 

[JD]

Yeah, here's where this all is going south for you in this discussion. You are becoming frustrated, which is a very negative emotion, because very few people see these issues as problematic and not keeping with their personal vision of the STAR WASR story. This is one of those cases where the problem isn't with everyone else, it's you. It's fine that you want to insists ST are clones or that the Empire should have disappeared post ROTJ, but there is a world of people out there, including those at LucasFilm that disagree with that. And rather then respect that different opinion you attack it as lazy and call us all blinded because we don't adhere to your view. That's not cool and keeping with the spirit of the discussion.

I certainly feel that it is lazy storytelling - that's not an attack. LFL needs to sell us this movie and they're doing it in easiest way possible - by introducing familiar concepts and ideas. Certain parts of this movie were rushed - Vaughn and Bird (reportedly) declined to direct, Michael Arndt's script abandoned - causing them to bring in Kasdan to write with Abrams, entire roles that were being cast were eliminated, etc. It's seems very likely thing's might not have gone smoothly in pre-production which very likely caused sacrifices (the plot being one of them?).

I've explained my issues with clones, the Empire, etc. - sure, there is a world out there willing to accept those things. But, there is also a world of people out there that knows that it shouldn't eat McDonalds and drink Coca Cola, but they still do. It's not me insisting the ST are clones - I know they're clearly not in this movie. I've backed up my thoughts on that, I've included resources about that and the whole nine yards... and I've pretty much abandoned that debate because you and others are willing to accept that without question.

If you're happy with being fed the same thing we got 30 years ago - that's great. I don't know why thing's are unquestionable and why we can't stand a little critical thinking about it. Obviously, I'm in a minority in many of these thoughts. I realize that I'm not going to change your opinion - you've reiterated your firm belief that Disney and LFL can do no harm time after time (which may or may not be due to your own personal interests).... however; I am open to having my mind changed by seeing a great movie on the big screen where these plotlines are done well (will I still think they could've been done better? probably - but, it's not going to rob my enjoyment of it).

This frustrated, negative felling comes from both ends - many here are condescending and dismissive and help this discussion spiral downward - and yes, too often I react a little too knee-jerkingly or am too defensive (and I really should've post late at night, lol).

 

[JD]

Basically JD wants a Star Wars movie that has nothing to do with Star Wars as we know it.

More to the point SW exactly how he see's it in his head and any other version is deluded fan service.

Sigh. That's not fair at all.

That's just it - I don't have any notion of how I want the Star Wars sequels to be. I just know I don't like certain aspects of the plot that we're seeing. There's a world of difference there. There's huge Star Wars universe that can be explored and yet we're settling for what can be seen as the 'same old thing.'

That doesn't mean the 'same old thing' can't - and won't be done well.

 

[Bryancd]

I certainly feel that it is lazy storytelling - that's not an attack. LFL needs to sell us this movie and they're doing it in easiest way possible - by introducing familiar things and ideas. Certain parts of this movie were rushed - Vaughn and Bird (reportedly) declined to direct, Michael Arndt's script abandoned - causing them to bring in Kasdan to write with Abrams, entire roles that were being cast were eliminated, etc. It's seems very likely thing's might not have gone smoothly in pre-production which very likely caused sacrifices (the plot being one of them?).

I've explained my issues with clones, the Empire, etc. - sure, there is a world out there willing to accept those things. But, there is also a world of people out there that knows that it shouldn't eat McDonalds and drink Coca Cola, but they still do. It's not me insisting the ST are clones - I know they're clearly not in this movie. I've backed up my thoughts on that, I've included resources about that and the whole nine yards... and I've pretty much abandoned that debate because you and others are willing to accept that without question.

If you're happy with being fed the same thing we got 30 years ago - that's great. I don't know why thing's are unquestionable and why we can't stand a little critical thinking about it. Obviously, I'm in a minority in many of these thoughts. I realize that I'm not going to change your opinion - you've reiterated your firm belief that Disney and LFL can do no harm time after time (which may or may not be due to your own personal interests).... however; I am open to having my mind changed by seeing a great movie on the big screen where these plotlines are done well (will I still think they could've been done better? probably - but, it's not going to rob my enjoyment of it).

This frustrated, negative felling comes from both ends - many here are condescending and dismissive and help this discussion spiral downward - and yes, too often I react a little too knee-jerkingly or am too defensive (and I really should've post late at night, lol).

Actually on what I have read and heard, the Lucas/Arndt script, based on what little is known about it, sounded like it would have been problematic. If anything, I think JJ and Kasdan and KK saw that and immediately took corrective action for the better. We may find out more over time how that all went. I also don't recall Vaughn or Bird turning down the director position. If anything, there has been very little during the production of the film that has leaked out that paints the production in a negative light, which I think say a lot. LFL can do harm, it's just that doesn't seem to be the case here. If there had been major problems with the story or production, we would have heard about it, and yet nothing of the sort has come to light.

 

[Kevin Gossett]

More to the point SW exactly how he see's it in his head and any other version is deluded fan service.

Let's be fair here, I don't think that's what he is saying at all. I can understand the want for more, but I don't think it's necessary. This is a continuation of the story we love so much, it doesn't need to be a completely different idea. If they completely abandoned the previous characters and storylines then that wouldn't be Star Wars to me (and probably 95% of the rest of the fans)

 

[JD]

Actually on what I have read and heard, the Lucas/Arndt script, based on what little is known about it, sounded like it would have been problematic. If anything, I think JJ and Kasdan and KK saw that and immediately took corrective action for the better. We may find out more over time how that all went. I also don't recall Vaughn or Bird turning down the director position. If anything, there has been very little during the production of the film that has leaked out that paints the production in a negative light, which I think say a lot. LFL can do harm, it's just that doesn't seem to be the case here. If there had been major problems with the story or production, we would have heard about it, and yet nothing of the sort has come to light.

The Arndt script, based on Lucas' notes (or treatment) was said to focus more on the younger cast. Whereas JJ wanted more focus on the OT heroes (which is odd because rumors and what we've seen seem to show the opposite). LFL seemed happy with Arndt working off of Lucas until JJ signed up.

We also know they were actively casting roles that were eliminated.

Does this mean that there was a major problem? Maybe not (I don't think I said it was). Is this indicative that thing's were rushed? Perhaps.

 

[Bryancd]

The Arndt script, based on Lucas' notes (or treatment) was said to focus more on the younger cast. Whereas JJ wanted more focus on the OT heroes (which is odd because rumors and what we've seen seem to show the opposite). LFL seemed happy with Arndt working off of Lucas until JJ signed up.

We also know they were actively casting roles that were eliminated.

Does this mean that there was a major problem? Maybe not (I don't think I said it was). Is this indicative that thing's were rushed? Perhaps.

Fair enough but you did say

"Certain parts of this movie were rushed - Vaughn and Bird (reportedly) declined to direct, Michael Arndt's script abandoned - causing them to bring in Kasdan to write with Abrams, entire roles that were being cast were eliminated, etc. It's seems very likely thing's might not have gone smoothly in pre-production which very likely caused sacrifices (the plot being one of them?)."

That sounds pretty definitive.

And I do think it would have been a mistake to focus on a younger cast. I think a transition from the OT characters to the new cast is much more holistic and appealing.

 

[OldKen]

JD,

I apologize for jumping on you personally.

It's just... We've heard your opinion for like 6 months. Over and over.

Everyone in this thread hears your opinion...

I don't hate you... You are a FNM fan so I can NOT HATE you!

I'm just over the Debbie downer mentality on this subject...

I've been stuck in Vegas for the last few days after a solid week of taking care of a group of wild young ladies ...(my friend placed 4th I the WORLD in the hooters bikini international pagent) and dealing with little to no sleep at 38 years old myself... Im too old to sleep this little LOL.

I'm about at wits end... (Too much of a good thing?)

So maybe I was a BIT harsh...

Again, I apologize.

Maybe you just need to make a THIRD TFA thread about how much that you think it's going to suck?

It would just be yourself... Arguing with...

Yourself...

But it might be better for everyone?

(And it might suck! You MAY be right! It IS a possibility it will be worse than the PT no matter how the trailers, concepts, and rumors seem!)

I AM sorry for being an ass.

I'm sleep deprived and ready to go home. And it was 112 degrees yesterday here... :X

 

[batguy]

I think it's clear this movie was a bit rushed. But most of Hollywood's big shows are arguably rushed these days. Fury Road stands out for its evidence of not being rushed.


I'm glad they are pushing it. We have to think long term. A trilogy = a decade. You can shoot things back-to-back but the end result will show. It will feel more like it's just one long movie (LOTR, etc). Both the PT and the OT feel like 3 different movies. I think that's better for SW.


Look at the big names from the OT that the ST will possibly and/or surely want to use - Frank Oz. James Earl Jones. John Williams. Harrison Ford. Anthony Daniels. Ian McDiarmid. These are a bunch of people in their 70s and 80s. We can't assume everyone survives to 85+ at all, let alone in good mental & physical health and wanting to work on this. We're running out of time with these people. Sucks.

 

[Bryancd]

I think it's clear this movie was a bit rushed. But most of Hollywood's big shows are arguably rushed these days. Fury Road stands out for its evidence of not being rushed.


I'm glad they are pushing it. We have to think long term. A trilogy = a decade. You can shoot things back-to-back but the end result will show. It will feel more like it's just one long movie (LOTR, etc). Both the PT and the OT feel like 3 different movies. I think that's better for SW.


Look at the big names from the OT that the ST will possibly and/or surely want to use - Frank Oz. James Earl Jones. John Williams. Harrison Ford. Anthony Daniels. Ian McDiarmid. These are a bunch of people in their 70s and 80s. We can't assume everyone survives to 85+ at all, let alone in good mental & physical health and wanting to work on this. We're running out of time with these people. Sucks.

The only issue this film has had that is public is the back and forth on the release date. That really has been the sole source of contention and that ship sailed long ago. JJ accepted the release date he was given and is delivering the film. There has been no indication that he has had to compromise in terms of story, getting his shots, or post production. John Williams is actively scoring the film as we speak, effect shots are being worked on, pick ups are likely over, and it's not even July 1st.

 

[JD]

Fair enough but you did say

"Certain parts of this movie were rushed - Vaughn and Bird (reportedly) declined to direct, Michael Arndt's script abandoned - causing them to bring in Kasdan to write with Abrams, entire roles that were being cast were eliminated, etc. It's seems very likely thing's might not have gone smoothly in pre-production which very likely caused sacrifices (the plot being one of them?)."

That sounds pretty definitive.

And I do think it would have been a mistake to focus on a younger cast. I think a transition from the OT characters to the new cast is much more holistic and appealing.

Perhaps I misspoke with the first line of my statement - but, it seems evident that parts of this movie were rushed... which subsequently caused the movie to be delayed to the December release date.

We know that the May 2015 release date was set pre-JJ - and now we're getting it mid-December. JJ and Kennedy squabbled with Disney to push it back even further (May 2016). Disney (specifically Bob Iger) wasn't all that happy with JJ dismissing Arndt (who is said to have been well into scripting when JJ came in).

So yeah - I don't think it's unreasonable to think that some parts of this movie are being rushed. In fact, I think it's pretty evident that it is being rushed.

The Mouse folks are disappointed that they didn't get their summer release - I'd bet Jurassic World's huge opening makes that sting a little bit more.

 

[Bryancd]

I just posted a link to a story in the Spoiler thread regarding the debate over Rey's lineage. The reason I mention it here is that it's almost July and we STILL have no idea her backstory. They have done a pretty admirable job keeping leaks to a minimum.

 

[cboath]

I thought it was disney/LFL that wanted more focus on the OT hero's to capitalize on it while they could.

 

[Bryancd]

The Mouse folks are disappointed that they didn't get their summer release - I'd bet Jurassic World's huge opening makes that sting a little bit more.

There is nothing intrinsically about a May release that portends bigger box office. The biggest grossing film of all time, Avatar, was released on...wait for it... Dec. 18th. BOOM. TFA is going to break that record, it's matters not one bit what day they release it. So that's also an incorrect conclusion based on actual box office receipts.

- - - Updated - - -

I thought it was disney/LFL that wanted more focus on the OT hero's to capitalize on it while they could.

They were inclined to go that direction, George Lucas was less so and the Arndt treatment reflected that. Or so it would seem, we will have to wait and learn more about how that all went down.

 

[JD]

There is nothing intrinsically about a May release that portends bigger box office. The biggest grossing film of all time, Avatar, was released on...wait for it... Dec. 18th. BOOM. TFA is going to break that record, it's matters not one bit what day they release it. So that's also an incorrect conclusion based on actual box office receipts.

In a perfect world perhaps - TFA is certainly poised for tremendous success - with practically no other movies set for release during that time (including January). But, an early summer release is still much more advantageous. (Iger's contract expires in 2016, although I'd guess he's breathing a lot more easier with the pre-release buzz).

One may wonder had the original release date stuck - how would've it faired against Avengers and Jurassic World, while I think SW would've won that battle, those flicks almost certainly would've sucked some money away from it. I'm guessing those release dates (JW for sure) would've changed had SW stayed on target.

 

[Bryancd]

But, an early summer release is still much more advantageous. (Iger's contract expires in 2016, although I'd guess he's breathing a lot more easier with the pre-release buzz).
.

Only in so far as the films earning are all within the calendar and fiscal year of 2015. TFA will contribute revenue to fiscal Q4 and Q1 of 2016. Thats the only way that it's material. In regards to box office records, as I have shown, Dec. 18th is the date of the biggest box office film of all time. You know what the second biggest film of all time is? Titanic. You know when it was released? Dec. 19th. So your May theory doesn't hold up.

Jurassic World box office is also supportive of the idea that TFA will out earn Avatar. An analysts at Morgan Stanley the other day modeled TFA to a $1.3B total gross figure, which would make it 3rd. He admits he is likely conservative and based on Jurassic World I would agree. The franchise value and fan base of Jurassic Park is much smaller then STAR WARS.

 

[JD]

I thought it was disney/LFL that wanted more focus on the OT hero's to capitalize on it while they could.

The original script/treatment had the OT heroes - but the focus was much more on new characters (rumored to be Luke's and Han/Leia's offspring). This storyline was in development (and Arndt said to be well into the script) until JJ was signed.

JJ initially refused Star Wars. The sequels were also offered to Brad Bird and Matthew Vaughn - who obviously didn't take it. (The timeline as to was offered it first isn't too clear). So I guess there could be some speculation as to why JJ changed his mind... did Disney change their offer because none of their other A-listers took the job - forcing them to alter their vision and giving the director more control than they originally intended to (and ultimately changing the storyline)?

Again, Iger wasn't too please with Arndt's dismissal nor the delay from May to December. There are rumors that both of these issues may have caused JJ the directors chair in 8 and 9.

 

[Bryancd]

The original script/treatment had the OT heroes - but the focus was much more on new characters (rumored to be Luke's and Han/Leia's offspring). This storyline was in development (and Arndt said to be well into the script) until JJ was signed.

JJ initially refused Star Wars. The sequels were also offered to Brad Bird and Matthew Vaughn - who obviously didn't take it. (The timeline as to was offered it first isn't too clear). So I guess there could be some speculation as to why JJ changed his mind... did Disney change their offer because none of their other A-listers took the job - forcing them to alter their vision and giving the director more control than they originally intended to (and ultimately changing the storyline)?

Again, Iger wasn't too please with Arndt's dismissal nor the delay from May to December. There are rumors that both of these issues may have caused JJ the directors chair in 8 and 9.

We'll have to wait for Rinzler to sort that all out. And I have been following this super closely and don't see the evidence for a lot of what you are postulating regarding JJ's relationship with Disney.

 

[cboath]

The only thing more advantageous is the weather. schools from college to pre-k are out 2 weeks or more (in the US at least) at xmas. They're out memorial day in may, school tends to end for most places in june, so then you've got no school to compete with. You could argue the colder weather helps it because going to the movies has fewer things competing with it when the weather isn't cooperative (i.e. when it's cold).

What do you want as a studio? Release in warm weather when schools in session for the first 3(ish) weeks of release or December when it's colder, but schools OUT the first 3 weeks? I'm not saying I know that exact answer, but for a general movie, the more chances for your audience to get in the door, the better. This is likely to be a rarity these days with a staying power of more than what seems the typical 3 weeks at which point it's an after thought.

 

[JD]

Only in so far as the films earning are all within the calendar and fiscal year of 2015. TFA will contribute revenue to fiscal Q4 and Q1 of 2016. Thats the only way that it's material. In regards to box office records, as I have shown, Dec. 18th is the date of the biggest box office film of all time. You know what the second biggest film of all time is? Titanic. You know when it was released? Dec. 19th. So your May theory doesn't hold up.

It's no theory - there's a reason the summer box office is full of action oriented big budget blockbuster films. Summer is historically much more advantageous overall to the success of a film. Only three of the top ten grossing movies were released during the winter months.

Are there exceptions to every rule? Yes.

Jurassic World box office is also supportive of the idea that TFA will out earn Avatar. An analysts at Morgan Stanley the other day modeled TFA to a $1.3B total gross figure, which would make it 3rd. He admits he is likely conservative and based on Jurassic World I would agree. The franchise value and fan base of Jurassic Park is much smaller then STAR WARS.

Agreed.