Star Wars: The Force Awakens (Pre-release)

[Bryancd]

Re: Star Wars Episode VII

It's still GL's story - they're using his notes and his stories - if it's Lucas' intention that (some of) the Stormtroopers were clones at the time, then they still should be. Retconning it so Filoni can do his thing is just weak sauce.

Unless I see it onscreen, I have to go with what's seen. I don't care about the television show(s) - they craft stuff for that and retcon stuff to fit around it (and almost always contradict it later anyway as the movies have precedence). Lucas surely indicated that at least some of the Troopers in ANH had lineage with Jango.

Where? When on screen was that determined? You can't have it both ways. And as Dave spent the better part of 7 years working directly with GL making CW and learning form him, I would say he's immanently qualified to carry on GL's story. There's no retconning as it's NEVER BEEN ESTABLISHED ON SCREEN. GL greatly expanded the SW story in the Clone Wars, disregard it at your own peril if you want to then say you understand the entire story which is SW as crafted by GL.

 

[JD]

Re: Star Wars Episode VII

Where? When on screen was that determined? You can't have it both ways. And as Dave spent the better part of 7 years working directly with GL making CW and learning form him, I would say he's immanently qualified to carry on GL's story. There's no retconning as it's NEVER BEEN ESTABLISHED ON SCREEN. GL greatly expanded the SW story in the Clone Wars, disregard it at your own peril if you want to then say you understand the entire story which is SW as crafted by GL.

Why have Clones wear Stormtrooper-esque uniforms? Why the head bump? I think this alone shows that there was some intention on GL's part - in fact, I'd wager that a lot of folks who saw all of these movies believe Stormtroopers are clones. I have no problem that non-Clones eventually filled some of the ranks, but I do think it's intended that Stormtroopers are clones (at least a good chunk of them).

To me, the evidence is clear, there's little doubt that GL intended ST's to be Clones. Whether all of them are or not... well, that's a whole other story.

 

[Riceball]

Re: Star Wars Episode VII

Where? When on screen was that determined? You can't have it both ways. And as Dave spent the better part of 7 years working directly with GL making CW and learning form him, I would say he's immanently qualified to carry on GL's story. There's no retconning as it's NEVER BEEN ESTABLISHED ON SCREEN. GL greatly expanded the SW story in the Clone Wars, disregard it at your own peril if you want to then say you understand the entire story which is SW as crafted by GL.

Agreed, if there was any retconning going on in The Clone Wars it was either at Lucas' behest or done so with his blessing since he worked closely with Filoni on the production of the show. Filoni has mentioned at cons how he worked with Luca on the Clone Wars and that he [Lucas] was very hands on with the production of the show even to the point of changing stories or making story suggestions for episodes.

Rebels will be a different beast since Lucas probably will have no input into the series but I don't see Filoni doing anything that Lucas would have disapproved of if he were involved. I also don't think that there will be any retconning of the Stormtroopers because, as has been previously pointed, nowhere at any time has it been ever been specifically shown, mentioned, or hinted at on screen that the Stormtroopers are still clones of Jango or even of someone else.

 

[Bryancd]

Re: Star Wars Episode VII

Agreed, if there was any retconning going on in The Clone Wars it was either at Lucas' behest or done so with his blessing since he worked closely with Filoni on the production of the show. Filoni has mentioned at cons how he worked with Luca on the Clone Wars and that he [Lucas] was very hands on with the production of the show even to the point of changing stories or making story suggestions for episodes.

Rebels will be a different beast since Lucas probably will have no input into the series but I don't see Filoni doing anything that Lucas would have disapproved of if he were involved. I also don't think that there will be any retconning of the Stormtroopers because, as has been previously pointed, nowhere at any time has it been ever been specifically shown, mentioned, or hinted at on screen that the Stormtroopers are still clones of Jango or even of someone else.

Exactly. You watch some of the bonus features for CW and see Dave and George in story meetings and it's just amazing to hear GL riff on idea's like what the Force really is and then see it incorporated into arcs like the Mortis Trilogy and the finals Yoda arc. Dave graduated form GL SW U.

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Unless I see it onscreen, I have to go with what's seen..

Your own words indict you and blow your argument to bits as it was never seen and never on screen that they are clones. Come on, man, now your just being pedantic. Move along…move along…and other ST voices even sound different. Unless you want to modify your view of film canon to include what is on screen and why you perceive as intent. Please tell me you are not part of the head bump conspiracy crowd?

 

[JD]

Re: Star Wars Episode VII

Agreed, if there was any retconning going on in The Clone Wars it was either at Lucas' behest or done so with his blessing since he worked closely with Filoni on the production of the show. Filoni has mentioned at cons how he worked with Luca on the Clone Wars and that he [Lucas] was very hands on with the production of the show even to the point of changing stories or making story suggestions for episodes.

Rebels will be a different beast since Lucas probably will have no input into the series but I don't see Filoni doing anything that Lucas would have disapproved of if he were involved. I also don't think that there will be any retconning of the Stormtroopers because, as has been previously pointed, nowhere at any time has it been ever been specifically shown, mentioned, or hinted at on screen that the Stormtroopers are still clones of Jango or even of someone else.

Exactly. You watch some of the bonus features for CW and see Dave and George in story meetings and it's just amazing to hear GL riff on idea's like what the Force really is and then see it incorporated into arcs like the Mortis Trilogy and the finals Yoda arc. Dave graduated form GL SW U.

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Your own words indict you and blow your argument to bits. Come on, man, now your just being pedantic.

When or if it effects the movies, then sure, I can get that. But, anyway you look it, I don't think it's something that matters in the big picture.

I've always looked at the movies as being separate from television and the rest of Expanded Universe... because, they simply need more "filler" and more thing's to sell. You can tell me thing's are canon all day and all night, but in the end it's about what effects the movie and my movie experience. So again... if I see it on the big screen and it becomes part of that, then fine.

I think it's clear that GL meant the Clones to be the forefathers of our Stormtroopers. There's little reason for the uniform/armor to be as similar, there's no reason for the head bump. Maybe GL changed his mind... he's done that - after all, Han does shoot first now. If he changes his mind - or whomever controls that empire now opts to make changes or decides to put it on the big screen, then I'll take notice.

You can say I'm whatever. There are plenty of other people unaccepting of changes to the OT in other threads. I really don't have much issues with those.

 

[SmilingOtter]

Re: Star Wars Episode VII

Lucas specifically says in the commentary for Ep. 2 that Jango's inability to see well with his helmet on "gets cloned into all the stormtroopers."

Then again, nowdays he said that Han NEVER shot first against Greedo...

 

[Bryancd]

Re: Star Wars Episode VII

When or if it effects the movies, then sure, I can get that. But, anyway you look it, I don't think it's something that matters in the big picture.

I've always looked at the movies as being separate from television and the rest of Expanded Universe... because, they simply need more "filler" and more thing's to sell. You can tell me thing's are canon all day and all night, but in the end it's about what effects the movie and my movie experience. So again... if I see it on the big screen and it becomes part of that, then fine.
.

Yeah, I agree in regards to the EU and so did LucasFilm when they vacated all of that content and relegated it to Legends status. I enjoy the CW and I am looking forward to Rebels as a whole new direction for the saga that will matter in regards to the story overall. Don't be surprised if elements of Rebels in some way makes its way into Ep. VII, to bring this back on topic.

And this is all academic. Rebels ST aren't clones, so that's that.

 

[Wolfsburg]

Re: Star Wars Episode VII

I don't even like Filoni but can accept that what he's producing is indeed canon. In fact, everything is from here on out, apparently.

 

[Bryancd]

Re: Star Wars Episode VII

I don't even like Filoni but can accept that what he's producing is indeed canon. In fact, everything is from here on out, apparently.

Really? I have never met the man but have heard him countless of times in interview and podcasts and think he is a terrific steward for SW, as much so as JJ. At least Dave actually had a personal working relationship with GL for 7+ years and is a huge fan prior to being hired. He even cosplayed as Plo-koon, what's not to like?

 

[NeoRutty]

Re: Star Wars Episode VII

Lucas specifically says in the commentary for Ep. 2 that Jango's inability to see well with his helmet on "gets cloned into all the stormtroopers."

Then again, nowdays he said that Han NEVER shot first against Greedo...

Well that's kind of like saying my kid inherited my inability to see well indoors with sunglasses on.

 

[jlee562]

Re: Star Wars Episode VII

Really? I have never met the man but have heard him countless of times in interview and podcasts and think he is a terrific steward for SW, as much so as JJ. At least Dave actually had a personal working relationship with GL for 7+ years and is a huge fan prior to being hired. He even cosplayed as Plo-koon, what's not to like?

I've been to two or three of the special Clone Wars screenings they sometimes have (had?) at Lucasfilm HQ here in the city and Filoni was always there. He definitely strikes me as a guy who knows his SW. I loved Clone Wars and thought he did a good job with it.

 

[Wolfsburg]

Re: Star Wars Episode VII

Really? I have never met the man but have heard him countless of times in interview and podcasts and think he is a terrific steward for SW, as much so as JJ. At least Dave actually had a personal working relationship with GL for 7+ years and is a huge fan prior to being hired. He even cosplayed as Plo-koon, what's not to like?

Eh, I just didn't care for TCW and Rebels looks like a mixed bag for me, based on what they've shown so far. I do really like the art direction though.

 

[Bryancd]

Re: Star Wars Episode VII

Eh, I just didn't care for TCW and Rebels looks like a mixed bag for me, based on what they've shown so far. I do really like the art direction though.

Clearly you don't have kids. CW, which I loved prior to having my son, was a lot of fun. Rebels is SW I can watch with him. That's magic.

And that is worth repeating in regards to Ep.VII. This is a whole new SW for a new generation that grew up watching CW. It's NOT ABOUT US.

 

[Wolfsburg]

Re: Star Wars Episode VII

Haha, you've got me there. No, I don't have kids. So far I haven't seen anything I dislike in regards Ep. VII though I'm trying to stay fairly spoiler-free.

 

[Sluis Van Shipyards]

Re: Star Wars Episode VII

Good grief, Jason. Of course he wouldn't do any of those things as they actually appear in the film. No where on screen are Stormtroopers referred to as being clones. They will not be clones in Rebels, which precedes the OT. That's canon. You do the math.

Filoni has free reign to make up whatever he wants about the new characters. For existing characters, it's still what Lucas came up with, regardless of who owns the property or is running things. Otherwise the entire property gets changed from what Lucas intended. For movies going forward away from the OT and Prequel characters, then they can make it whatever they want.

From SW Insider 111

How the Clonetroopers became Stormtrooper (MTV.com interview with Lucas)
"The idea is that over time, there were new clone strains introduced, and then they even conscripted guys to be Stormtroopers. So it's not just purely clones. It started out as clones, but then it got diluted over the years as they found out they could shanghai guys [more cheaply] than they could build clones." George Lucas

So as far as I'm concerned, when the guy who created the whole entire property says that's how it is, I tend to believe him over the new guy that worked with him for a handful of years.

 

[Zombie_61]

Re: Star Wars Episode VII

...Then again, nowdays he said that Han NEVER shot first against Greedo...

Technically speaking, Han didn't shoot first. "First" implies there is, was, or will be a "second". And since Greedo didn't fire back, Han didn't fire the first shot, he fired the only shot.

But seriously, yeah, Lucas is full of it.

 

[Bryancd]

Re: Star Wars Episode VII

Filoni has free reign to make up whatever he wants about the new characters. For existing characters, it's still what Lucas came up with, regardless of who owns the property or is running things. Otherwise the entire property gets changed from what Lucas intended. For movies going forward away from the OT and Prequel characters, then they can make it whatever they want.

From SW Insider 111

How the Clonetroopers became Stormtrooper (MTV.com interview with Lucas)
"The idea is that over time, there were new clone strains introduced, and then they even conscripted guys to be Stormtroopers. So it's not just purely clones. It started out as clones, but then it got diluted over the years as they found out they could shanghai guys [more cheaply] than they could build clones." George Lucas

So as far as I'm concerned, when the guy who created the whole entire property says that's how it is, I tend to believe him over the new guy that worked with him for a handful of years.

Again, that's your prerogative and you may find reconciling that a challenge as we move forward. Preconceptions will be the death of some fans. My son won't suffer from such myopia, though, and he will grow up and move forward loving what I loved as a 9 year old in 1977. And move forward this franchise will and the choice will be to fight against that or embrace it. I choose to embrace and celebrate it. It will be glorious.

I am a staunch defender of Lucas. I defend his changes to the OT, I defend his creative choices and the quality of the PT. Vociferously. Lucas is famous for saying art is never completed, it's simply abandoned. Regardless of what he may have said in the past, for him the saga was constantly evolving. The only man alive still creating SW content that spent as much time with him learning about this universe and how George see's it was Dave. I have zero doubt there is anything Dave or JJ for that matter are doing that George would't approve of. The story, the art, never ends, and in the case of SW, is never abandoned to the vagaries of fan service.

 

[JD]

Re: Star Wars Episode VII

The problem is in the one interview Dave Filoni doesn't even say that Stormtroopers are not clones with any certainty. He uses words like "in my opinion" and "can" that are definitive at all.

Although... apparently Pablo Hidalgo also stated that "No Stormtroopers will be Clones."

I just think that it's silly - it really seems to be Lucas' intent that there are some clones in the ranks. Changing this now really makes zero sense. It's just ridiculous to change this for no real apparent reason. I'm more open to Han shooting first than I am to this.

I'm guessing the change in this aspect of the Star Wars legends is to accommodate the rumor that John Boyega is a (former) Stormtrooper. I also think GL had little to do with it based on his previous statements.

 

[Jedi-72]

Re: Star Wars Episode VII

It's easy for me, I guess. I ignore that the prequels ever really happened and none of the other stuff matters to me at all. If it ain't in the original three, it didn't happen. All of you who treat GL's word as though it comes from the burning bush, remember that he had no master plan. He made a ton of this up as he was going along, which is the reason for so many inconsistencies that the fanboy community has spent years trying to rationalize, defend and make fit into the fractured and disjointed timeline and story cobbled together from umpteen sources. I don't think he even remembers half the crap that has come out of his mouth over the years. Debating it is a waste because there is no concrete answer. GL has played fast and loose with the "story" over the years. It's no longer his. The new stewards can do with it whatever they wish.

 

[Zombie_61]

Re: Star Wars Episode VII

...I am a staunch defender of Lucas. I defend his changes to the OT, I defend his creative choices and the quality of the PT...

Even though I didn't like the changes he made to the OT movies, I agree with his stance that they are (or were, in this case) his movies and he can do with them as he sees fit. What I disagree with is his childish refusal to allow the original theatrical versions to be released on DVD/Blu-Ray. That shows a complete and total lack of respect for the people like me who love those movies in their original form, and who helped to make Star Wars the phenomenon it has become.