Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice (Post-release)

[dascoyne]

Does Zach do his overcrank-undercrank-overcrank camera thing?

 

[teragon]

I don't really see see what you mean by that, can you describe it ? Larry Fong's camera work is a lot more stable with crane work, steady cam and travelings if it helps.

 

[DuneMuadDib]

It's where you alter the speed of the shot. Snyder did it a lot in 300 and Watchmen, the parts where it's suddenly go slow motion or fast motion.

I don't remember any of it in this film.

 

[KrangPrime]

I can sum it up. When Supes died at the end, I couldn't have cared less. Affleck won me over quick as Batman. The Nolan films are some of my favorites, so I was surprised how quick I accepted him as the new Batman. They might as well get Winona Ryder to play Lex. I gave Eisenberg a chance, but it was totally wrong.

I havn't watched this yet, but I don't mind spoiling myself since I could really care less about this take on ti. but..

Why do we even NEED a Lex JR in this? If he's just like his father, as to be almost a clone, minus the looks?
It just seems like a redundant character. I think it'd be more interesting if a lex jr where a good guy, trying to help the heroes and stop his father from every turn.
Lex JR just seems like a mis step.

And, where they ALWAYS saying he was lex jr in the movie? or inferring? or was this just post interview stuff after the reviews on eisenburg came out? after movie retconning?

 

[harrisonp]

I havn't watched this yet, but I don't mind spoiling myself since I could really care less about this take on ti. but..

Why do we even NEED a Lex JR in this? If he's just like his father, as to be almost a clone, minus the looks?
It just seems like a redundant character. I think it'd be more interesting if a lex jr where a good guy, trying to help the heroes and stop his father from every turn.
Lex JR just seems like a mis step.

And, where they ALWAYS saying he was lex jr in the movie? or inferring? or was this just post interview stuff after the reviews on eisenburg came out? after movie retconning?

From my understanding they were never implying that he was the son of the "real" (read traditional) Lex, just that he was a Jr and had inherited his father's company. It seemed to me that it was just there to give him father/god issues and not to imply that a Hackman/Spacey Lex had existed before.

 

[KrangPrime]

From my understanding they were never implying that he was the son of the "real" (read traditional) Lex, just that he was a Jr and had inherited his father's company. It seemed to me that it was just there to give him father/god issues and not to imply that a Hackman/Spacey Lex had existed before.

so, if i'm following right.... he TECHNICALLY IS the REAL lex... but somehow still a JR?

now i'm more confused ;o).


I still can't believe that the fighting between bat and supes stops because someone says 'hey, our mothers have the same name....lets be friends!'

'Hold on, I hear a mountain lion...I have to go!'

 

[harrisonp]

Yeah exactly, Lex Sr. was just a business man, Lex Jr. is the "real" Lex but with the millenial Zuckerberg twist

 

[Solo4114]

Well, I'll start off by cleaning up a quote from my dad...Opinions are like buttholes. Everybody has one, but that don't mean I want to hear from yours.

So here's mine...

Superman- More of what we saw in MoS. I didn't hate the film, but it didn't do anything to elevate the character. Nothing great, but I don't hate it, & I'll explain why i give it a pass in a bit.

Wonder Woman- WW was GREAT in battle, but I really can't see her carrying a solo film. Affleck isn't Lawrence Olivier, but to me, the Diana Prince/Bruce Wayne scenes just seemed awkward, & it wasn't his fault.

Batman- Here's where I differ from most, as I loved the portrayal of both BW & the Bat. It was definitely a departure from what we've seen before in a live-action film, but the reasoning behind it made sense to me.

First, we've never seen a Batman in this stage of his career. He's been doing this for over 20 years, he's suffered major loss since his time as Batman started & it's taken a huge toll on his psyche. The constant dreams/visions are evidence that he might be breaking. He's the last man standing in the war he's been waging, & that's made his decision making vulnerable, to the point someone like Luthor could manipulate him to the point he was. By the end, he's been renewed by seeing the sacrifice others were willing to make. It inspired him knowing that he's actually NOT alone in his crusade. He knows that there's something a LOT bigger coming as a threat, & he's going to be ready.

To address some of the issues others have pointed out-

The killing-You have BAD MEN attempting to do BAD THINGS. If in stopping them, they die, then so what? I go back to what Bale said in Batman Begins to Neeson, he didn't have to kill him, he just didn't have to save him. I'll admit, this has a bit of my personal feelings in it, too. You have a carload of teens that rob/carjack/kill/etc, then when being pursued by the police, they're in an accident, & some or all of them die. Here come the parents, social activists, & the professional outraged, declaring what a tragedy that these innocent young people died. They put themselves ina situation where there could be circumstances that would cause them harm.:confused

It was a departure, but not surprising,as I still don't see where he killed anyone.

The origin- I felt it fit, because it was part of the dream at the beginning. It was necessary to show the state of his mind, since although it has been 35-45 years ago, he's STILL haunted by it on a daily basis. It wasn't to tell it to us, it was to give us a glimpse in his head, & it's messed up.

Lastly, here's my take on the visions. I'm thinking Martian Manhunter. He's being held somewhere, & is trying to warn someone of the coming alien threat. That threat being Darkseid bringing Parademons & turning the Earth to another Apocalypse. He is able to reach Bruce, but Bruce's obsessions put Superman's face on the 'alien threat'.

The Flash vision sounded a lot like the Animated story from the 90's show, where Lois died, & Clark took it upon himself to declare himself the law.

My final thought is that the problems most people are having are because of DC's decision that every single iteration of their character is valid, because each iteration is separated by the Multiverse. This version of Batman is not the comic Batman. It's not the one from '66, from GOTHAM, from the Nolan films, from the Animated series, but they're ALL still BATMAN. It's just that EACH Batman is forged by the Universe he lives in. I showed my brother the first Nolan film, & he didn't even finish it, because he grew up in the mid-60's, & Adam West IS the one & only Batman.

Not saying this to belittle anyone's opinion or thoughts, but if you don't like the universe where these stories are happening, then you're not going to like the characters, & vice-versa.

I haven't seen the film, but based on your description, here's a thought.

You describe a Batman who has been, basically, the lone superhero/costumed vigilante, battling a tide of darkness for the last 20 years, watching friends die, seeing his efforts go to naught. Set against him, you have the Last Son of Krypton, one of the purest symbols of hope there is. The story COULD be that Batman's breakdown (and related killing) is actually a plot point. You highlight that it's against his code. You highlight that he's abandoned his code. You highlight that he's become paranoid, vengeful, and willing to use a "by any means necessary" approach to fighting crime. He's not quite the Punisher yet, but it wouldn't take much for him to go that far. You showcase how the destruction wrought by Superman in Metropolis against Zod made Batman realize he had to take down Superman. He was just another criminal like the thugs Batman normally fights, only a much, much bigger threat. All of that is your backdrop for Batman.

Set against that, you have Superman, who truly is a boyscout and is trying to do the maximum amount of good. If you want to show conflict, showcase how Superman is anguished by the suffering caused by the battle of Metropolis. But, he's still trying to be the purest version of good that he can. He's trying to be a beacon of hope.

It sounds like the movie sorta-kinda-maybe attempted to do this, but dropped the ball because Superman came across as a *******, instead of a guy who truly wants to do good and is truly good, yet is also heartbroken about the damage caused in Metropolis. In the end, though, the point would be to have Superman be a true symbol of hope and goodness, and to ultimately provide the vehicle for Batman's redemption where he re-adopts his "no guns, no killing" code. You make him realize how far he's fallen. You have him learn that Superman really isn't the bad guy here, and you have Superman convince him ultimately of his pure intentions.

To do that, though, you need to really understand Superman. You need to recognize that Superman does things because (A) it is his obligation to do so and one that he feels keenly, (B) because he really, truly believes in doing good and inspiring the rest of the world, and (C) because Superman doesn't deal in expediency; he deals in moral purity.

The problem is that comparing Superman to ****** is just...wrong. Snyder seems to want him to be ****** in the garden of Gethsemane, but that's not the character, or at least it shouldn't always be. Superman should be, by this movie, convinced of his own duty and the rightness of his cause, but he shouldn't be ruthless in pursuing that. People should misunderstand him because the people themselves have lost the sense of doing what is good because it is good.


I used to love Batman as a teenager. He's the ultimate power fantasy. He's rich, he's exceptional at everything he does, and he does it all on his own drive and desire (and his handy fortune).

Over time, though, as I got older, I came to really appreciate Superman more. It's not because he deals in moral absolutes, but rather because he fights for good in spite of the difficulty. He recognizes the fact that the rest of the world isn't always kind, doesn't always care, and isn't often willing to do the right thing, but he keeps fighting anyway. Superman is, ultimately, more noble than Batman, and that's what I appreciate about the character. Ultimately, I think a good movie with the above premise would be about Superman's nobility inspiring Batman to turn back -- ever so slightly -- towards the light. To not lose hope. To fight the good fight again, rather than the most effective fight.

It doesn't sound like that's the movie Snyder made, though.

I laughed a lot...


... then I actually felt bad for BA. He's a good actor who is as big a Batman fan as anybody here. And he, no doubt, put his heart and soul into his performance of a once in a lifetime role, but has no creative control over the film that the director plants him in. After so many years invested he's got to be at least a little heartbroken. I feel sorry for him. It's no fault of his that he hitched his wagon to Zach's falling star.

Affleck is a fantastic actor who was bedeviled in his early career by either a crappy agent or his own crappy decisions. But when given the opportunity, the man shines. Check out Hollywoodland if you want to see him at what I think is his best.

I think we all can agree though, they showed all the cool stuff in the trailer. Am I only one bothered that this was basically a Batman/Bruce Wayne movie? Bats is all the rage right now, but honestly, I am sick of him. I love him in the DCAU because they dont over use him, but man, even suicide squad is going to have Batman in it. If done correctly, DC has a kick ass stable of heroes. Im sick of Batman getting the spotlight the entire time. Hell, this was supposed to be a sequel to MoS...Than it got bat-jacked.

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This was great by the way, thank you! :lol

I think the real issue is that the version of Batman that DC has been emphasizing is all grimdark, and doesn't seem to have a shred of optimism in him. That just gets tired after a while. Ultimately, that's the strenght of the Justice League as a whole. The personalities balance each other out. But you still need that sense of optimism and hope.




Blue Lanterns forever, man.

It's where you alter the speed of the shot. Snyder did it a lot in 300 and Watchmen, the parts where it's suddenly go slow motion or fast motion.

I don't remember any of it in this film.

It's a gimmicky technique, not dissimilar from the freeze-360-pan thing that The Matrix made famous. It's cool in limited use, but most of the time it's used wrong.

 

[KrangPrime]

I haven't seen the film, but based on your description, here's a thought.

It sounds like the movie sorta-kinda-maybe attempted to do this, but dropped the ball because Superman came across as a *******, instead of a guy who truly wants to do good and is truly good, yet is also heartbroken about the damage caused in Metropolis. In the end, though, the point would be to have Superman be a true symbol of hope and goodness, and to ultimately provide the vehicle for Batman's redemption where he re-adopts his "no guns, no killing" code. You make him realize how far he's fallen. You have him learn that Superman really isn't the bad guy here, and you have Superman convince him ultimately of his pure intentions.

To do that, though, you need to really understand Superman. You need to recognize that Superman does things because (A) it is his obligation to do so and one that he feels keenly, (B) because he really, truly believes in doing good and inspiring the rest of the world, and (C) because Superman doesn't deal in expediency; he deals in moral purity.

The problem is that comparing Superman to ****** is just...wrong. Snyder seems to want him to be ****** in the garden of Gethsemane, but that's not the character, or at least it shouldn't always be. Superman should be, by this movie, convinced of his own duty and the rightness of his cause, but he shouldn't be ruthless in pursuing that. People should misunderstand him because the people themselves have lost the sense of doing what is good because it is good.


I think the real issue is that the version of Batman that DC has been emphasizing is all grimdark, and doesn't seem to have a shred of optimism in him. That just gets tired after a while. Ultimately, that's the strenght of the Justice League as a whole. The personalities balance each other out. But you still need that sense of optimism and hope.




Blue Lanterns forever, man.

the movie you describe actually sounds interesting. far better than trying to redoo two over rated comics (Death of superman and Dark Knight Returns).

That's one reason why I liked the ending of Batman Dark Knight Rises... Bruce LEARNED From his mistakes, that batman was a curse, and WAS ABLE TO GIVE IT UP and have a happy life with Catwoman. That's something that Bruce tim Batman NEVER got. he could have lived happily with wonder woman, but he let batman consume him and ruin Bruce Wayne's life because of it, leaving no happy

I can't help but wonder if nolan had that in mind when developing it.

to me, it just boiled down to Superman wasn't superman in MOS. there was no heart, no happiness, no fun. you can't apply the batman formula to every character. it just doesn't work.

 

[Goonie]

Saw it last night. Neither great, nor bad, but mediocre.

It's sad to think this one was in production what seemed longer than your average comic book movie, and we got a mediocre result.

What I liked: Affleck as Bats, Gadot as WW. I do like Cavill as Supes too.
What I didn't like: Eisenberg as Luthor. Some poor editing in some scenes where you couldn't tell what was going on, i.e. batmobile chase. (Nolan's Tumbler chase was way better - probably the most entertaining thing about the TDK trilogy). The intro of the other members of the Justice League - this could've been thought out better.

 

[RBJ]

My first thought when the movie started and the bats start lifting young Bruce- "uh oh"

SPOILER FREE REVIEW!: I was REALLY looking forward to #batmanvsuperman having purchaced tickets months ago. Hearing it was based on my favorite #Batman story “The Dark Knight Returns” and seeing the comic inspired suit had me excited!

The movie is a mess. I realized after looking at his past work I think I know what the problem is. Zach Snyder is a ****ty director.

THE GOOD:

- Batman looks like a badass and has a brutal fighting style. Affleck was great.
- Jeremy Irons as Alfred is perfect
- Wonder Woman! She stole the show. I’m looking forward to her solo movie (as long as Snyder has nothing to do with it)
- The Batman V Superman fight was really good
- All of Batman gadgets are cool
THE BAD

- The movie jumps all over the place for no real reason. Too many sub plots that never really come together
- Batman breaks his “one rule”. A lot.
- Lois and Clark are boring as ****
- It takes FOREVER to get to any action
- You’ve seen 99% of the good stuff in the trailers already
- Lex Luthor is horrible. Like Jim Carrey as the Riddler bad.
- I am so sick of entire cites being destroyed in these things.

So there you go. I’d go see #Deadpool again and wait for video on this one.

 

[CharlesHouse]

Batman didn't bother me much. Neither did the killing really. Someone is shooting anti-aircraft guns at me, i'm shooting back. Especially if i have to land there or near there. Same tends to go with bad guy goons. I know it goes against the code, but all onscreen bats have done it. Had he taken out a few citizens, that'd be different.

Superman on the other hand, i just don't get Snyders take on him period. He's supposed to be a boyscout and inspiring hope, yet he again comes off more like super @#$%. He's always got a scowl on his face. Always. Saving the girl from the fire in mexico he has to hover first then descend to the mothers level then lets everyone worship him - though it does seem odd to him. No reassurance, no she'll be ok now, nothing. Everyone time he has to interact with someone, he has to appear in the air hovering 20-30 feet up making them look up to him before he descends to their level. He can't just 'show up' and land.

Wouldn't mind seeing a batfleck solo movie honestly. Really interested in WW after this. Superman? No. It's like he's terrified of doing anything remotely close to a returns superman because of how people reacted to stalker superman, so we get jerk superman. Not sure this supes has had a happy scene with anyone outside of Lois who seemed to feature in this more than needed.

Now, as for why superman had to use the spear...it's doubtful batman could've gotten that close alive and stayed alive long enough to do the deed. As for WW, he'd have to get the spear, get her to stop fighting long enough to explain the spear to her so shed could do it. Just wasn't time in the equation. Plus, the his responsibility bit.

Superman never interested me. The only comic I have read in which Superman was an primary character that I enjoyed was Kingdom Come, and I saw many similarities with this film.

I also am excited to see an Affleck-directed Batman.

How long does it take to say "stab him with this". She is an amazonian warrior. Even the new picture they showed with her fellow warrior maidens has spears... stick em with the pointy end.

Superman stayed, rather than falling, to hold it in place, or he would have removed it. Wonder Woman can't physically take the same damage.

I think we all can agree though, they showed all the cool stuff in the trailer.

I don't agree the showed all the cool stuff, because there were some genuine fantastic surprises, but I do think they showed too much, enough to basically connect the plot, but that's a huge issue with trailers.

As far as Batman being in Suicide Squad, I assume he will be in it as much as Joker was in this: presumably in a flashblack.

 

[CharlesHouse]

I havn't watched this yet, but I don't mind spoiling myself since I could really care less about this take on ti. but..

Why do we even NEED a Lex JR in this? If he's just like his father, as to be almost a clone, minus the looks?

I was under the belief that he was originally cast as Riddler, but they took the character out. I can see similarities. Eisenberg's Luthor was a rich Riddler, same plots, same megalomania, and if LexCorp was his father's company, and he is a Junior, it makes sense that his father would also be named Lex.

 

[Snikt]

CharlesHouse - Regarding the spear thing, thats what Im saying, toss it to her, and have her stab him with it, she is a warrior, by the smile on her face, she obviously likes to fight. She was totally holding her own against doomsday. Hell in the comics Doomsday isnt even that much bigger than Superman, he gets him in a full nelson for gods sake. "This weapon is literally the only thing that can hurt me on this planet but Ill do it myself for reasons" Yawn fest. The death of Superman meant nothing, because you didnt even care about him, and as comic fans, even as movie fans, you know he isnt dead. So why bother even doing it?

What was a fantastic surprise that wasnt given away in the trailer? You cant say the Justice League promos were a fantastic surprise. Im seriously asking, not trying to troll at all.

He is in it more, there were scenes filmed in there with BA as Batman. Besides, you cant have Joker in a movie without Batman. There isnt a reason. Joker only exists because of Batman.

 

[Dreddful]

I just got back from seeing it. It was pretty good! I was expecting a complete mess after what the critics had to say. Eisenberg, I think, was the weakest point. He was just plain annoying.

I think the inclusion of the Justice League material was an afterthought from the studio execs. Probably something along the lines of "No, Zack, you gotta put them in the movie! They gotta be in there! Just do it!" It seemed painfully obvious because it all looked like it was filmed after the fact and none of the main cast was really involved in it at all (except an e-mail to WW....an e-mail....)

All and all, I enjoyed it.

Oh...and Affleck as Batman. Glad to see so many people eat crow after this one! He was GREAT!

 

[Snikt]

@NeilT - Regarding what you said about MoS, that couldnt be any more true. Superman wasnt in this movie. This was a dude with a S on his chest with some powers. It was NOT Superman. Not every damn character is a broken one like Batman, Superman instills hope and inspiration, no matter how bleak things get. He was a whiny bitch in this. Thank god his moms name was martha, or else Bats would have killed him... :facepalm

 

[teragon]

I still can't believe that the fighting between bat and supes stops because someone says 'hey, our mothers have the same name....lets be friends!'

It's more than that, I don't know why people keep reducing the moment to that. It wasn't hard to understand. It's about Batman realizing that superman had a mom, like him, like every human on earth. It humanised Superman in Bruce's eyes, but further than that, her mom was in danger. Suddenly he has the opportunity to save someone's mother, coincidentally named Martha too. This is why he became Batman, because he couldn't save her mom. That's why they showed us the death of the Waynes again, focusing more on Martha this time. That's why he snapped out of his murderous mood. He didn't went "ok the lets be pal", he just went to save someone's mother while sending Superman deal with the bigger threat. It's only at the funerals that Bruce finally realized that Superman was trying to do good and that he should do right by him from now on.
I'm not pulling anything out of my ass here, this was all in the movie !

 

[CharlesHouse]

@CharlesHouse - Regarding the spear thing, thats what Im saying, toss it to her, and have her stab him with it, she is a warrior, by the smile on her face, she obviously likes to fight. She was totally holding her own against doomsday.

Again, she can't take his abuse the way Superman can. Liking to fight wouldn't stop her from being killed faster than Superman was.

The death of Superman meant nothing, because you didnt even care about him, and as comic fans, even as movie fans, you know he isnt dead. So why bother even doing it?

You could be talking about the movie or the comic of the same name with this comment. It's how I felt about the comics as I knew he would come back and the precedent it set for death in comics before reading.

What was a fantastic surprise that wasnt given away in the trailer? You cant say the Justice League promos were a fantastic surprise. Im seriously asking, not trying to troll at all.

I would have to watch it again, but I know in the theater, I went with several people and we were each surprised by something.

He is in it more, there were scenes filmed in there with BA as Batman. Besides, you cant have Joker in a movie without Batman. There isnt a reason. Joker only exists because of Batman.

Yes, I am aware. However, we don't know it was Ben Affleck, we know it was someone in that suit. I wouldn't be surprised if it's a flashback to when Harley was Harleen and Batman has no dialogue. There are plenty of comics that include Joker and very limited interaction with Batman, if any.

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I don't know why people keep reducing the moment to that.

Because this movie doesn't hand everything to you.

 

[glunark]

If Superman comes back to life on earth because he's kryptonion, why didn't Zod?

 

[KrangPrime]

It's more than that, I don't know why people keep reducing the moment to that. It wasn't hard to understand. It's about Batman realizing that superman had a mom, like him, like every human on earth. It humanised Superman in Bruce's eyes, but further than that, her mom was in danger. Suddenly he has the opportunity to save someone's mother, coincidentally named Martha too. This is why he became Batman, because he couldn't save her mom. That's why they showed us the death of the Waynes again, focusing more on Martha this time. That's why he snapped out of his murderous mood. He didn't went "ok the lets be pal", he just went to save someone's mother while sending Superman deal with the bigger threat. It's only at the funerals that Bruce finally realized that Superman was trying to do good and that he should do right by him from now on.
I'm not pulling anything out of my ass here, this was all in the movie !

But it just comes off as so goofy.


It reads off like 'Hey, lets have batman and superman fight!'

'But, they'd never fight!'

'OK, lets kidnap supermans mom...'

'Awesome... THEN Batman and superman fight. but...wait a minute....at the end....how do we make them friends again?'

.......


...
.....
.....

(This goes on till sunset in slow executive mode)

....

'I know....We'll have superman say his mom martha is in danger!'

'Wait, that's batman's mom too! they can connect thatway!'

'AWESOMESAUCE! god,we are onthe same wave length! Lets make love!'

'OK, meet me in the rec room at 5...'

that's how reading about the scene comes off to me anyway....even if they handled it in a more serious way.....it still sounds goofy on paper..
Like to senior VPs trying to play story editor.