AA case begins

Qui-Gonzalez said:

Okay then, should we also kowtow to the Gaffers who worked on ANH? How about the Best Boy?

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Well i've seen enough people at cons to know that happens anyway, 'i was the third stormtrooper to the right' or i was in a naboo fighter that got blew up, now gimme £30 bucks for my autograph.
That happens a lot, but being a part of the stormtrooper creation holds more weight than someone who was an electrician or other job doesn't it?

Qui-Gonzalez said:

Okay then, should we also kowtow to the Gaffers who worked on ANH? How about the Best Boy?

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If they created something for the movie and there was no written contract for the rights...yes.

Apples to oranges, a poor argument. Gaffers and Best Boy are (I believe) part of a Union too boot and LFL would likely end up settling rather than get sued or the bad press a Union would give them. In fact if I remember correctly there was a huge issue with Lucas getting all pissed off that the UK workers were taking tea breaks, part of the Union contract, and he tried to skirt it and was warned strongly not to do so. So this wouldn't be the first time Lucas has had issues with UK rules.

Lord Abaddon said:

If they created something for the movie and there was no written contract for the rights...yes.

Apples to oranges, a poor argument. Gaffers and Best Boy are (I believe) part of a Union too boot and LFL would likely end up settling rather than get sued or the bad press a Union would give them. In fact if I remember correctly there was a huge issue with Lucas getting all pissed off that the UK workers were taking tea breaks, part of the Union contract, and he tried to skirt it and was warned strongly not to do so. So this wouldn't be the first time Lucas has had issues with UK rules.

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Not a poor argument as much as a poor example. My point is, he was a vac former, not a sculptor...unless you wanted a pond. Did he do the painting? Did he have the original idea for the helmets? I think we are all clear that it was Ralph McQuarrie, NOT Ainsworth.

As far as Lucas and the tea breaks, I remember reading the same article, but I don't recall anywhere in there where it said he was "getting all pissed" as much as he was confused by it. Hell, it would be confusing to ANYONE who was not used to that union rule. Lucas can't be too averse to union rules. If I read Rick McCallum correctly, Lucas did not even put pen to paper to further his own TV series during the writer's strike.

Qui-Gonzalez said:

Not a poor argument as much as a poor example. My point is, he was a vac former, not a sculptor...unless you wanted a pond. Did he do the painting? Did he have the original idea for the helmets? I think we are all clear that it was Ralph McQuarrie, NOT Ainsworth.

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That's in your opinion he was a "vac former, not a sculptor"...and what this court case will decide.

Lord Abaddon said:

That's in your opinion he was a "vac former, not a sculptor"...and what this court case will decide.

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Then where are the original molds? Not one piece he has posted images of has been close to "original". Show me one thing, outside of a backyard pond, that he has deinitively sculpted. He hasn't even been able to prove it to the American courts.

Qui-Gonzalez said:

Then where are the original molds? Not one piece he has posted images of has been close to "original". Show me one thing, outside of a backyard pond, that he has deinitively sculpted. He hasn't even been able to prove it to the American courts.

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Not going to start this again, especially with the same spin.

1) He didn't try to prove anything to the American courts, he let it default under advisement.

2) He hasn't exactly been posting images of items to prove anything to anyone, especially so-called "experts."

Lord Abaddon said:

If AA gets tossed in the fire then so should every trooper armor maker. It's hypocritical that there are dozens of armor and helmet makers, blatantly and openly selling their wares on eBay, and yet he who actually was involved in the making of the stuff (no matter to what degree even if he just "laid hands on" the stuff, he was there) is getting the brunt of the attack.

LFL just hates the fact this guy has some pedigree and his stuff is way more accurate than the licensed products that are put out. If anything it's more Rubies and MR pushing to have LFL "smoke his kipper" than probably even LFL itself because up against their stuff there is no comparison.

They are talking about it on Slashdot now too: http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/04/08/005248&from=rss

Frankly I hope he wins, if anything to knock the LFL empire down on it's butt for once. They have screwed around with the fans, the collectors and others and if there is any company who has been playing fast and loose with "a pattern of dishonesty and false info" it's LFL and its licensees (Rubies or Don Post off originals? Some MR pieces exactly from the originals? Oh really?) To me AA did nothing more with his advertising, and was actually more "honest," than the majority of licensed makers out there and their bloated claims.

EDIT: And if it's true that LFL didn't have a true and written contract and, like many production companies trying to do things to cut costs and "on the side", then they have no one else to blame but themselves.

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Mike once again you miss the whole point of why this is so wrong. AA was supposed to be a professional business that was asked to make a product that was created by the LFL team period. It's not like AA woke up one morning and invented trooper armor. Lucas did and asked him to cast them for his production. AA could really give a crap about star wars and just wants to line his pockets on a project he was already paid for by LFL. Which is why your comment about other armor makers getting away with it just doesn't hold water.

Darbycrash said:

Mike once again you miss the whole point of why this is so wrong. AA was supposed to be a professional business that was asked to make a product that was created by the LFL team period. It's not like AA woke up one morning and invented trooper armor. Lucas did and asked him to cast them for his production. AA could really give a crap about star wars and just wants to line his pockets on a project he was already paid for by LFL. Which is why your comment about other armor makers getting away with it just doesn't hold water.

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And once again you miss the point that your opinion doesn't matter since you are not and have not been privy to the actual legal issues of the case and how it was handled, nor how AA was "hired" to do what. And I have no doubt about AA wanting to make money, just like other armor makers (some who do care, and some who don't).

So again...

Qui-Gonzalez said:

Not a poor argument as much as a poor example. My point is, he was a vac former, not a sculptor...unless you wanted a pond. Did he do the painting? Did he have the original idea for the helmets? I think we are all clear that it was Ralph McQuarrie, NOT Ainsworth.

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TBH this is the bit that really astounds me. AA has apparently got a pretty decent legal team on a "no win no fee" basis so presumably they see something in his case that warrants their attention. If as it now seems "all" he did was produce a set of working vac-forming moulds from a pre-existing sculpt then I just cant get my head around why his legal team would want to stump up the cost of the defence. These guys go through a due dilligence process - there must be something going on. Maybe this isnt actually about the Stormtroopers but more about the TIE's, Rebel Fleet Troopers, Imperial Gunners etc. Maybe SDS's legal team feel they can lose some things but win on others?

Qui-Gonzalez said:

As far as Lucas and the tea breaks, I remember reading the same article, but I don't recall anywhere in there where it said he was "getting all pissed" as much as he was confused by it. Hell, it would be confusing to ANYONE who was not used to that union rule. Lucas can't be too averse to union rules. If I read Rick McCallum correctly, Lucas did not even put pen to paper to further his own TV series during the writer's strike.

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When you're a multi-bzillionaire I'm sure its not a problem -However this is about what happened on 1976 with a very limited budget. It does seem that certain corners were cut!

Cheers

Jez

Mike, I like you, but when you post things like the dead horse and dead horse productions poster, it is like you saying "I am taking my ball and going home." People have views that are just as salient as yours, let's not be so dismissive, okay? His so called original helmets look anything but. We can't argue that, can we?

Qui-Gonzalez said:

Mike, I like you, but when you post things like the dead horse and dead horse productions poster, it is like you saying "I am taking my ball and going home." People have views that are just as salient as yours, let's not be so dismissive, okay? His so called original helmets look anything but. We can't argue that, can we?

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The Dead Horse issue is because it is. And yes, another dead horse, we can argue the look of the helmets as others have pointed out the many, many, many variations in the originals. The look is there, are they from originals is the real question behind it. I defer to Gino, TrooperExpert, Jez, and others who have way more knowledge in that regard than I do for that point.

Anyway, not going to continue the dead horse discussions.

Let me say something, some of you have known me for a very long time now and know I can be both emotional and pretty blunt at times. I don't like games, never did, and I don't like people stating "facts" when they only have portions or pieces of what really happened. Part of my "passion" about the whole AA thing is that everyone claims to know "exactly what is, happened, truths" when nobody can. AA and members of LFL were there in '76, none of us and some not even born! Nobody knows what AA really does or doesn't have in his files, background, etc. Nor LFL. Sure...yes...we know bits and pieces, but nobody knows EVERYTHING. And the courts will do what they do to find out everything and pull all these pieces we talk about together.

I've said before...if AA is found to be a liar and fraud, so be it and I accept that and admit I was wrong. But if he's found to be in the right, will others so vehement in saying he was a liar and fraud admit they were wrong? I hope so.

I am looking forward to the case decisions for a lot of reasons. To establish more about the history of one of the iconic props in Star Wars. To show who was involved with what (as we still don't know definitively who sculpted the 3D design, either the models that LFL now has pics of or the final helmet molds). To show what the laws are regarding such things (which I find interesting).

For me, I've had enough really. This hobby is supposed to be fun. It was at one time and that's where I want it to go again. Honestly I've had so much crap hit me in the past few years that arguing over pieces of plastic fantasy masks is just silly. So much so that a few months ago I buried the hatchet with Gino and just now had a long IM with Trooperexpert where we came to an understanding as well.

Guys...plastic pieces just are NOT worth making enemies, and a hobby should not be the place for silly animosity over things like this. Let's see what the case says and enjoy the facts that come from it, either way, and know that in some form we are learning more about our favorite hobby and topic.

I've said it before, and will restate it. I will be one of the first people to say I was wrong, if the courts decide in his favor. I don't get personally twisted (over much) over these little things. Now, if AA had done this with Vader, and presented helmets that were less than screen accurate, I would be much worse in his tar and feathering.

Both sides in this sideline debate vehemently defend their opinions. In the end, that is what they are - until this is decided - opinions. To me, it feels like he is trying to steal Lucas' thunder. I know it is petty, but his thumbing his nose just felt like that to me. Not some altruistic defender of his part in the fabrication of the helmets, just some nobody who wants to be a bigger part of the lore of Star Wars than he really is. THAT'S why it rubs me a bit raw. It would be like Peter Jackson saying he helped Tolkein with the LotR series of books. Well, maybe not THAT ridiculous.

Qui-Gonzalez said:

It would be like Peter Jackson saying he helped Tolkein with the LotR series of books. Well, maybe not THAT ridiculous.

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Jackson isn't that arrogant...but if Lucas made those movies...
:lol

Lord Abaddon said:

Jackson isn't that arrogant...but if Lucas made those movies...
:lol

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*cough*KingKong*cough*

Qui-Gonzalez said:

*cough*KingKong*cough*

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:lol

Forgot about that!

Qui-Gonzalez said:

Both sides in this sideline debate vehemently defend their opinions. In the end, that is what they are - until this is decided - opinions.

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I think the "sides" are less clear then they were a few years back. Certainly my position has changed over the last 3 years as more facts have emerged, which have chipped away at his version of events.

The problem is that as soon as one statement is revealed as a mistruth, it naturally causes us to question everything that person has said. So ultimately AA has painted himself into this position in the same way that Al Fayed did in the Diana/Dodi Inquiry, also at the High Court earler this week.

For me the big frustration was that AA was portrayed as some kind of Demon for doing things very similar to a host of other maker's in this hobby - often by those very maker's themselves!

Cheers

Jez

Lord Abaddon said:

And once again you miss the point that your opinion doesn't matter since you are not and have not been privy to the actual legal issues of the case and how it was handled, nor how AA was "hired" to do what. And I have no doubt about AA wanting to make money, just like other armor makers (some who do care, and some who don't).

So again...

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Mike we all are privy to the fact that Lucas created star wars and developed the trooper concept long before AA got involved. So don't even go there. According to your skewed logic on this situation, I should have the right to use any projects I have consulted even if I wasn't the originator of the idea. That has nothing to do with opinion it has to do with professionalism and honor period. AA has shown he has neither in the way he dealt with the original molds misleading ad and the way he didn't even try an defend himself in US courts and is now hoping to weasel his way out using a loop hole in UK law.

So Mike since you seem to continue to support AA in wanting him to win which I would consider factor A. And B you are saying in theory its ok depending on what was said to profit on a massive scale for a project you were previously paid to do but wasn't your idea. That C it is ok to get paid to manufacture someones idea that they brought to you and then steal it for your own personal gain.

So A+B=C and there we have it Mike. So please don't even trot out your flogging a dead horse banner. Just own up to the logic and be done with it.

Darbycrash said:

Mike we all are privy to the fact that Lucas created star wars and developed the trooper concept long before AA got involved. So don't even go there. According to your skewed logic on this situation, I should have the right to use any projects I have consulted even if I wasn't the originator of the idea. That has nothing to do with opinion it has to do with professionalism and honor period. AA has shown he has neither in the way he dealt with the original molds misleading ad and the way he didn't even try an defend himself in US courts and is now hoping to weasel his way out using a loop hole in UK law.

So Mike since you seem to continue to support AA in wanting him to win which I would consider factor A. And B you are saying in theory its ok depending on what was said to profit on a massive scale for a project you were previously paid to do but wasn't your idea. That C it is ok to get paid to manufacture someones idea that they brought to you and then steal it for your own personal gain.

So A+B=C and there we have it Mike. So please don't even trot out your flogging a dead horse banner. Just own up to the logic and be done with it.

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Ben, that logic is so messed up it's not worth trying to unravel it. You immediately dismiss contracts, laws, time of conception, artistic/industrial design, etc. For you it's b&w, cut and dried, over and done. Sorry, but real life, and creative rights, are not so easily done.

Read up on intellectual property rights and the on-going legal battles in this country between corporations such as Novell, SCO, IBM, and Microsoft over who owns what, who contracted with who, etc. and you'll see just how flawed your "A+B=C" is and how it's not that easy except from an opinionated point of view.

I'm sorry, but calling this work "industrial design" is silly. It's artistic, flat out. Designed for an aesthetic, not a function. Designed for entertainment, not head protection. Designed by Ralph McQuarrie, not Ainsworth. He may have a LEGAL claim, hell he may win (though I doubt it). My problem with it is that it seems WRONG to want ownership of something you know was conceived of and designed by someone else just because (and if) you executed it's physical incarnation.

It'll be interesting to watch this play out, in any case.

- Douglas

BingoBongo275 said:

I think the "sides" are less clear then they were a few years back. Certainly my position has changed over the last 3 years as more facts have emerged, which have chipped away at his version of events.

The problem is that as soon as one statement is revealed as a mistruth, it naturally causes us to question everything that person has said. So ultimately AA has painted himself into this position in the same way that Al Fayed did in the Diana/Dodi Inquiry, also at the High Court earler this week.

For me the big frustration was that AA was portrayed as some kind of Demon for doing things very similar to a host of other maker's in this hobby - often by those very maker's themselves!

Cheers

Jez

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I won't say the guy is a demon, but I guess I think higher of the crafters here than I ever will of him. The crafters here, while making trooper pieces for the money as well, did it because there weren't any options and they love the items. This guy...my opinion again...could give two craps about us in the hobby beyond our bank accounts. If he could make anywhere near as much money selling ponds, or boat parts, he would never have looked at trooper buckets.