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  1. I never said Batman!!! RPF Premium Member Bigdaddy's Avatar
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    Jan 25, 2016, 5:05 AM - Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens (Post-release) #3176

    PantheraGem said: View Post
    A semi-reboot is exactly what it felt like. It renders the original trilogy pointless, especially "Return of the Jedi".
    ROTJ's end was pretty lame, and even as a kid it made no sense to me, but Robot Chicken makes the point in a more entertaining fashion.



    I can only enjoy these new Star Wars movies for what they are; Disney fan films
    Exactly! That's what every Star Wars movie has been since ROTJ. It's an impressive (most impressive) fan film, enjoy it for what it is.
  2. PantheraGem's Avatar
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    Jan 25, 2016, 5:12 AM - Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens (Post-release) #3177

    The end of "Return of the Jedi" still warms my heart. It's the ending that the story deserves.

    "The Force Awakens" feels like a fan film. An underwhelming one that doesn't expand the universe whatsoever. The PT didn't feel like fan films at all, and they weren't Disney.
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    Jan 25, 2016, 5:43 AM - Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens (Post-release) #3178

    PantheraGem said: View Post
    Calm down.
    Okay, I have. That friggin second cup of russian coffee!!! Now I am all eyes to read about why the OT is rendered pointless by the new movie
  4. I never said Batman!!! RPF Premium Member Bigdaddy's Avatar
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    Jan 25, 2016, 5:51 AM - Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens (Post-release) #3179

    PantheraGem said: View Post
    The end of "Return of the Jedi" still warms my heart. It's the ending that the story deserves.
    It is a heartwarming end (OOT), and I loved it as a kid, none the less it's still cliché and makes no sense in the broader story. I don't see TFA as undoing it, rather it begins explaining why blowing up the Deathstar 2 and killing Palpatine was only a small step towards galactic peace on a very long road.

    "The Force Awakens" feels like a fan film. An underwhelming one that doesn't expand the universe whatsoever. The PT didn't feel like fan films at all, and they weren't Disney
    I agree it feels like a fan film (because it is) but didn't find it underwhelming, and thought it expanded the universe just enough to include new characters without making the old ones seem out of place. I imagine we'll be seeing the Star Wars universe expand greatly in the next few years. I found the PT to be horrific (I took SW a lot more seriously when they came out) they didn't feel like fan films (but they were), just very poorly written, directed, acted, designed films. They weren't Disney, but they were the best Lucasfilm had to offer. I'm not a "Disney Fan" by any means but I'm not going to look down my nose at a project because the company made it, I love Mary Poppins! (when is THAT reboot?)
  5. Solo4114's Avatar
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    Jan 25, 2016, 8:44 AM - Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens (Post-release) #3180

    Wolfsburg said: View Post
    Well I think the PT utterly failed in explaining exactly what being a Sith really means or why they are so powerful and unique. However, I assume Qui-gon could tell Maul was a Sith via some visual cue or fighting style (maybe yellow eyes are unique only to Sith or something) when he reported to the council that he believed the attacker was "a Dark Lord of the Sith". We know from TPM that the Jedi believed the Sith were extinct but that wouldn't rule out other darksiders. The Sith were just a particularly dangerous and threatening sect (for reasons that largely remain unexplained). Unless lightsabers are solely ceremonial, I assume there was still a practical reason why Jedi carried them and were so good at saber to saber combat. I think it could be chalked up to more than simple training.

    The PT introduced the notion of "bringing balance to the Force" and the "chosen one" stuff, which I always thought was stupid because it never made any sense as it was explained. However, I wonder if that could've been intentionally nonsensical. Maybe the Jedi were mistaken and too self absorbed to correctly determine what the prophecy actually entailed. I think that could be where the ST is going with things. The only way there can be balance is to recognize that everyone has a darkside and not banish or ignore it. There can only be balance with equal parts light and dark. Maybe that's what Luke is coming to realize. George had said many years ago the ST would be more philosophical and explore the "shades of gray". Good and evil might not be so black and white.
    Both issues can be traced directly back to George's style of writing and how the films were structured. Realistically, what should have happened is that Anakin works as the audience surrogate (the same way Luke was in ANH) to whom things must be explained. As Anakin is trained, he'd need to learn about the Dark Side of the force. He'd also need to learn who the Sith are, since they are the ones he faces. This would allow his tutor the opportunity to provide a bit of exposition to clear this stuff up. E.g., "The Dark Side is that part of the Force driven by anger, fear, hatred, and which ultimately leads to evil. The Sith were an order of the most devoted practitioners of Dark Side manipulation, who nearly enslaved the galaxy over 1000 years ago before they were defeated and utterly destroyed by the Jedi. Since that time, there have been other Dark Side users, but they have been wild, untrained, and ultimately defeated by the Jedi. The figure we fought, though, was clearly trained in what I am sure were ancient Sith arts." Then when Anakin says "How do you know" he explains that he has studied the Sith in the archives, but such things are only for the highest ranking and most closely trusted Jedi like Master Windu and Master Yoda." And that builds Anakin's growing resentment of not having enough power, yadda yadda yadda.

    Now, it's not directly relevant to the films (that the Sith are just one kind of dark side user), but you could work it into the films. Instead, Lucas' style has always been to, like, drop a reference to something and then...not really explain it. The new film had some of this, too. Referencing the Knights of Ren without explaining who they are. I expect they will be explained, though, precisely because of the whole "Wait, I thought the Sith were the bad guys?" issue that you (understandably) point out.

    annanake said: View Post
    Yep don't know what I was thinking ?

    If I ever run into someone wearing jackboots and an all black officer uniform who has found Hitlers skull, keeps it on a shrine and talks to it .
    Who has his own personal gas chambers built .
    Who goes to a Jewish school and wipes it out with a custom built Walter ppk looking side arm.
    I will know better than to call him a Nazi .
    He is not .
    he is the new archetype of dark side practitioners that has emerged to fill the void left by the Nazis demise obviously !
    Well, technically, we refer to such people as Neo-Nazis, rather than Nazis themselves, but congrats on Godwinning the thread either way!

    And Kylo's master.
    who has Plagueis exact back story of secretly controlling events from the Shadow's for years, same expected physical wound's from surving Palpatines attack, and musical cues but of course is not Plagueis.
    I'm sorry, but can you refer me to the Plagueis backstory that remains canonical? As far as I know, the only backstory we have -- the only official backstory, anyway -- is the story Palpatine tells Anakin at the opera house. As far as I can recall, there was no mention of Plagueis generally manipulating the galaxy from the shadows for years, nor the precise manner of his demise, other than dying in his sleep. I mean, for all you know, Palpatine poured poison in his mouth, and there were no visible wounds. If all we have to go on are the EU novels, then you can't rely on them and we're back to the "but why'd they have to get rid of the EU?!?!" debate.

    Give me minute I'm trying to get this strait in my head.

    The writers *came up* with Snoke all by themselves. some have claimed they never even heard of Plagueis before they just happen to write snoke as exactly the same . they then have Ben training to be Jedi but who gets woo'd away by Snoke. is ordered to return to kill all the students. And is now 2nd in command of a rising empire seconded only by a leader who appears as a huge hologram dressed in a black robe.
    Those writers presented there ideas.

    which make perfect sense if it is the Sith continuing there reign .

    But said here is the twist, you're gonna love this even though we completely retold parts of every star wars movie that came before this one to some extent our idea is , wait this is really good !

    there not even Sith BOOM fresh and original .

    So ultimately what your saying is the wook is right ?!?

    They are trying to passed off the same old story as original?!?!?!?

    I could accept the circular storyline if this is the same 20,000 year old battle between the Jedi and the Sith .
    But to rehash the past story and then try to put your fingerprint on it by changing the name of the Villain's while leaving literally everything else the same is complete B.S.

    Everyone keeps saying things like let's do something new . or it is expanding the universe.

    but new or expanding is NOT a name change while leaving everything else EXACTLY the same now is it ?
    Two things.

    First, to be fair, we don't know the full story yet. All we have are the initial hints of a story, and a lot of people are simply filling in the blanks based on past stories and current assumptions.

    Snoke's goal vis a vis the Force could be...nothing. Maybe he doesn't even have Force powers himself, he's just really good at manipulating and BSing impressionable young chuckleheads like Ben Solo. Like many cult leaders, he may simply be a guy who knows how to influence people without actually having special magic powers. Towards that end, the Knights of Ren might simply Force wielders that Snoke has manipulated into working for him.

    Or they may be a Dark Side faction with a wholly different philosophical stance than the Sith. We have no idea, but I expect the distinction will eventually be drawn. If that doesn't happen, then yeah, I agree that the use of Snoke and the Knights of Ren will have been pretty silly and pointless and will render them more like the Knights-Who-So-Recently-Said-"Sith!". But it's a little early to make that call, I think.

    AJTaliesen said: View Post
    Which is fine, and could have been more dynamic than the PT, IF they do that.

    But what you're suggesting is that they are different, which again, could be good.

    Unfortunately, that's not what they've been showing. With Hans death they are explicitly showing the new "bad guy" version to be strait up evil. Sith with a different name.

    Which, IF that's so, does retcon the PT, since they had absolutely no reason to assume Maul and Siduous were Sith, if other options are available. It also throws a wrench at RotJ, since we've already been asked to accept that becoming one is a direct result of being dark side. (The entire scene of the Emperor trying to bring out Luke's anger, even if its at him... Not to mention Vaders belief that it's too late, regardless of personal desire, as it's not something you call yourself, it's something you are as a direct result of being dark side).

    Again... I'm ok with either... Make them fundamentally different: cool! Or make it just a name of an organization rather than an adjective, scrapping some of what happened in TPM: also cool!

    Both together doesn't really work though. Not even if we really reeeeeeeeaaaaaaach for It.






    And ultimately, the most logical option available is to stop being stubborn about it and have Ren eventually come to terms with the fact that they ARE a continuation of Sith ... Which frankly he pretty much says flat out that that's what he wants anyway.
    I don't recall him saying that (not saying he didn't, just that I don't recall it). I thought he wanted to succeed where Vader failed. So, towards that end, he'd lift what he thinks works, and try to reject what he thought didn't work. Maybe Kylo Ren can't find any old Sith teachings and that'll be part of the new films -- him hunting for them. Or maybe it'll be something else. I dunno.

    I don't think it's a retcon of the PT because the PT never really established who/what the Sith were, and therefore there's not that much there to really retcon in the first place. I do think that's kind of a failure of the PT, but at that point, the series could simply fall back on the EU to fill in the blanks. Now we're rebuilding all of that, so we don't have the backstory to rely on.

    I don't know how they're gonna take this, but I do expect they'll distinguish the two bad guy groups at some point, the same way that the First Order is not the Empire.

    Zombie_61 said: View Post
    The Star Wars franchise has never really been good at explaining what is meant by "balance" with regards to The Force; perhaps intentionally. I'm hoping they'll address this in the subsequent Sequel Trilogy movies and that the characters (or at least Luke) will come to realize "balance" is exactly as you've described it--not equal numbers of Light Side and Dark Side users that create a stalemate in their centuries-old war, but an understanding that true balance is achieved when each individual acknowledges, understands, and controls the "good" and "bad" to create harmony within themselves. Given the nature of the stories told within the Star Wars franchise (in all of it's manifest forms) that seems unlikely at this point, but I believe it would be the only way to truly define "balance".
    Again, I chalk most of this up to Lucas' style of writing. He'd throw out a prophecy without even understanding it himself, or rather would use words that he thinks are totally unambiguous, but which can easily beinterpreted differently. Case in point, he apparently has said in interviews that "balance to the Force" meant "destroy the Sith." Because apparently destroying evil = balance? I think George would tend to toss around ideas without really having a clear, fixed backstory in mind, which I suppose makes sense when he considers even the stories he'd commit to film as "stories that I can mess with whenever I like."

    Bigdaddy said: View Post
    It is a heartwarming end (OOT), and I loved it as a kid, none the less it's still cliché and makes no sense in the broader story. I don't see TFA as undoing it, rather it begins explaining why blowing up the Deathstar 2 and killing Palpatine was only a small step towards galactic peace on a very long road.
    Remember the end of Watchmen? Nothing ever "ends."
  6. Bryancd's Avatar
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    Jan 25, 2016, 9:55 AM - Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens (Post-release) #3181

    @Solo4114 Yeah, I have been kicking around the idea that Snoke may not be able to use the Force himself. In the Visual Dictionary it says he is very knowledgeable about the Force but no mention of him specifically having Force powers. He wanted Ren to bring Rey to him so he seems to want to surround himself with people strong in the Force and he is motivated to prevent the Jedi from returning.

    Also of what we have briefly seen if the Knights of Ren, on Kylo is seen with a lightsaber, I'm not convinced they are a group of dark side users. Also curious in the flashback it appears Kylo kills one of them who was about to kill Rey.
    Last edited by Bryancd; Jan 25, 2016 at 10:07 AM.
  7. Valar Morghulis RPF Premium Member kristen jones's Avatar
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    Jan 25, 2016, 10:27 AM - Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens (Post-release) #3182

    AJTaliesen said: View Post
    How did anyone know they were Sith in the prequels?
    The didn't...if you mean IN universe. The jedi were asking each other "what was that?" "I believe it was a Sith Lord". Etc... They weren't positive, and looked for clues to "Unravel the mystery of the Sith".

    If you mean OUT of universe, then I suppose most people made that assumption on their own.. like they are now doing with Kylo Ren... even though we have it in print that: "Supreme Leader Snoke believes that Kylo Ren is a perfect balance between Light and Dark force abilities" and that "He is not Jedi, and he is not Sith". It's stated right there, and yet still people want to assume he's one or the other.


    AJTaliesen said: View Post
    For now, a couple of the movies have everyone assuming that being a bad guy force user and being Sith are the same thing and ending up being completely right about it.
    Completely right about it? This bit lost me... the Visual Dictionary explicitly states he is not a Sith or a Jedi, but a new melding of the two. perhaps a new school of thought? I believe it was stated somewhere that the Story Group built it into this arc that the jedi ultimately lost their connection to the Force because they were to Puritaniustic. Perhaps it is true for dark Side users too... that the extremeism of the Sith led to it's downfall as well, and so going forward, Force users have realized that the truth is in the middle somewhere, and the key to success is to strike the right balance.

    That's what I've taken away from it, anyway.
  8. Valar Morghulis RPF Premium Member kristen jones's Avatar
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    Jan 25, 2016, 11:05 AM - Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens (Post-release) #3183

    annanake said: View Post
    I could accept the circular storyline if this is the same 20,000 year old battle between the Jedi and the Sith .
    Well aren't you assuming that the Jedi have been battling the Sith that long? Technically Obi Wan said that the Jedi were the Guardians of Peace in the Galaxy for over a thousand years, not 20,000... so your numbering is a bit off. Also, he didn't say that the Jedi were battling the Sith for even all of that time... he said that the 1,000 years was BEFORE the Dark Times.. before the Empire. For all we know, the Sith may have been vanquished only a hundred years or so before TPM. the council never said how long the conflict had raged, or how much time had passed since they came to believe that the Sith was destroyed.

    The thing is we really don't know all that much about the Sith. Most of what you've put forth there is speculation and assumption about them.

    And any way this particular discussion is pointless, because we now have printed proof that this is NOT the same Jedi/Sith conflict. So there is no point in arguing that. You could say that you don't agree with the direction that the Story Group took on this particular issue...that is an opinion that you are more than entitled to have, and to express. But to continually argue that Kylo MUST BE a Sith, and Snoke MUST BE Plageius--even though there have been printed confirmations to the opposite brought forth--is just a waste of energy.
  9. Valar Morghulis RPF Premium Member kristen jones's Avatar
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    Jan 25, 2016, 11:13 AM - Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens (Post-release) #3184

    Guri said: View Post
    If the Sith are not the only Dark Force users, then the Jedi are not the only Light Force users.

    It could be that the division between Dark and Light has more to do with the school of study, methodology and philosophy and not just bad feelings vs. good feelings.

    If that is the case, then by destroying most of the Jedi and then destroying the last of the Sith, Anakind DID fulfill the prophecy by bringing balance to the force instead of it being divided into two sects.

    I have long thought that rules of taking kids from their parents at early ages, then no marriage or other 'attachments' was too cult-like. And add to that Qui-gons references to the 'living force' that the Jedi council seemed not to be keen on and there is plenty of room for something above and beyond the Jedi 'good guys' as much as there is plenty of ways to use the dark side without being a Sith.
    I wholeheartedly agree. I have to admit I had not made a connection to Qui Gon's comments about the living Force until now, but that makes good sense.

    Personally I agree that the apparent focus is on finding the middle ground between Dark and Light. But then I am also one of those who detests the Polarization of our country (The U.S., for those reading abroad) into two camps. The truth is almost always in the middle, and to divide human beings up into an absolute black-or-white binary system serves only one goal: CONTROL.

    Of course there are many on here who do not share this view, and that's fine. I'm only saying that I personally like this tack, and I think it fits well within the framework of both the old and new story.
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    Jan 25, 2016, 11:14 AM - Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens (Post-release) #3185

    kristenhenry70 said:
    Well aren't you assuming that the Jedi have been battling the Sith that long? Technically Obi Wan said that the Jedi were the Guardians of Peace in the Galaxy for over a thousand years, not 20,000... so your numbering is a bit off.
    The quote was "a thousand generations", not "years".
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    Jan 25, 2016, 11:20 AM - Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens (Post-release) #3186

    SpyderDan said: View Post
    The quote was "a thousand generations", not "years".
    By our standards a generation is 25 years. So 25000 years.
  12. Valar Morghulis RPF Premium Member kristen jones's Avatar
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    Jan 25, 2016, 11:20 AM - Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens (Post-release) #3187

    Bryancd said: View Post
    Maybe this franchise just isn't for you.
    Hang on a tick, Bryan. I think he's really saying the same thing as us here, though possibly with a bit of sarcasm, and maybe even not fully realizing that he's agreed with us.

    I think he's right about the fact that the Jedi didn't clearly understand much of anything they spoke about. They were victims of Puritanicalism (I just made that up) and this is what blinded them to the doings of the Sith, among other things.

    Master Yoda truly was the wisest, having admitted that they might have misunderstood the Prophecy.

    Yoda assumed that Luke would fail if he didn't complete his training, but he ended up being wrong about that. --OR-- he was pulling an Oracle move, and was telling Luke what he needed to hear to set him on the right path. (That bit is pure speculation, and probably not even correct... but it is possible)

    My point in this is that I DO think that the Jedi of the past were mistaken about many things, and this seemed to be what Annanake was saying as well...though perhaps with sarcasm, as I've said.
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    Jan 25, 2016, 11:26 AM - Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens (Post-release) #3188

    Glad to see I'm not the only one who was doubting that both Snoke and Kylo were sith. Regarding Snoke not having any force powers, I could buy that, but he did imply he felt the awakening (could have been BS, but then how did he know about ?), he did seduce Kylo to the dark side, and with his face, I kinda doubt he did it in person, showing up near Luke's academy... And apparently in a cut scene (or was it in the script ?), Rey hears his voice telling him to kill Kylo when she had him laying defeated on the ground. So I'd say at the very least he is force sensitive and can use it to communicate or manipulate people to some degree ? Wait and see as they say...
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    Jan 25, 2016, 11:26 AM - Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens (Post-release) #3189

    AJTaliesen said: View Post
    With Hans death they are explicitly showing the new "bad guy" version to be strait up evil. Sith with a different name.

    .
    No... NOT straight up evil. That's what JJ Abrahms has been saying about Kylo since the beginning. He is NOT a traditional bad guy.

    If Kylo were straight up evil, he'd have dispatched Han Solo without a thought. But he was shown to be STRUGGLING with it immensely. he knew that Snoke had told him that this is something that he must do if he wants to attain full Dark Side power, but he had said himself that he didn't know if he had the strength to actually do it.

    A straight up evil villain would have had no difficulty. Kylo did. He is NOT straight up evil. This whole story is about showing that there are grey areas in between the Dark and the Light. It isn't all just one or the other... we are all a bit of both. That is the subtext, and it is clearly shown in Kylo's actions up to and after he kills his own Father (expecting that this action would strengthen him, and then feeling bewildered by the fact that it actually made him feel weaker).
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    Jan 25, 2016, 11:37 AM - Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens (Post-release) #3190

    PantheraGem said: View Post
    Calm down.
    He DOES have a point.

    I confess I cannot see how it makes the OT pointless, either... and not especially ROTJ either.

    Something clearly happens after ROTJ. The characters don't cease to exist. they continue to live... and those lives are full of twists, turns and developments...just like our lives. Those paths lead SOMEWHERE. TFA attempts to show us where those paths led to. that doesn't invalidate what came before, it shows you the RESULTS of what came before.
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    Jan 25, 2016, 11:54 AM - Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens (Post-release) #3191

    SpyderDan said: View Post
    The quote was "a thousand generations", not "years".
    Hmmm... I guess I'd forgotten that. It does ring true when I replay my memory. I stand corrected.
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    Jan 25, 2016, 12:10 PM - Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens (Post-release) #3192

    I think part of the problem here -- understandably -- is that it's very, very difficult for the hardcore fans to "unlearn what they have learned" with regards to the Star Wars universe from EU materials.

    I mean, just on the topic of the Sith alone, the EU had at least three separate "Tales of the Jedi" comic book arcs, the two KOTOR games on PC, the Old Republic MMO, and I have no idea how many novels. Moreover, unlike the stuff that happened after ROTJ, most of it hasn't been obviously discarded (yet). It hasn't been incorporated, either, but it hasn't been obviously overruled at all.

    So, much of what I suspect people think they know about any number of things relating to the Sith...they actually don't "know" in this current version of the Star Wars universe. But telling people "Watch this movie and don't think about what you previously read about the Sith" is like telling someone "Sit in that corner and don't think about a polar bear." You're gonna think about the bear, even if you're not supposed to.

    That's just one of the built-in difficulties of the new material and the way that the Star Wars franchise used to be run. The EU existed for over 30 years. That's 30 years of people accepting XYZ as a fact, only to suddenly be told that they have to disregard that fact. I still get pissed if someone says Pluto isn't a real planet, ya know? (Side note: yes it is, because SHUT UP, THAT'S WHY.)

    Anyway, for better or worse, that's basically what we have to do now: We have to ignore what we've learned about the universe, or at least wait for a lot of it to be confirmed. The rest, you just gotta approach with an open mind or resign yourself to being frustrated (at the least) with where the franchise goes. I know what a drag that is -- feeling like your favorite franchise is telling you to not let the door hit you in the ass on your way out -- but I think there's still a lot to be enjoyed if you can get past this hurdle.
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    Jan 25, 2016, 12:21 PM - Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens (Post-release) #3193

    Yeah I think what keeps getting lost on those struggling to enjoy this movie is predicated on their own predispositions in regards to how this story works in universe in their minds. Star Wars is an entertainment franchise, it doesn't actually exist as a real galaxy far far away. It's supposed to be fun first and foremost, not chained to anyone's individual dogma.
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    Jan 25, 2016, 12:28 PM - Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens (Post-release) #3194

    kristenhenry70 said: View Post
    A straight up evil villain would have had no difficulty. Kylo did. He is NOT straight up evil. This whole story is about showing that there are grey areas in between the Dark and the Light. It isn't all just one or the other... we are all a bit of both. That is the subtext, and it is clearly shown in Kylo's actions up to and after he kills his own Father (expecting that this action would strengthen him, and then feeling bewildered by the fact that it actually made him feel weaker).
    That and he doesn't torture Rey when he captured her, unlike say, Vader did with Leia. He tries to reason with her at first and then tried using the Force to read her mind but he does not use harsher methods even though he has her strapped to chair(?)/table(?) that seems to be designed for torturing people and, iirc, it was used to torture Poe previously. A straight up evil character would have just tortured Rey after she refused to talk and cooperate with Kylo, instead he opted to try to show that he's not really a bad guy and when that didn't work, he just tried reading her mind. If that's evil then Kylo must obviously subscribe to a kinder, gentler form of evil than I'm used to.
  20. Valar Morghulis RPF Premium Member kristen jones's Avatar
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    Jan 25, 2016, 1:05 PM - Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens (Post-release) #3195

    Solo4114 said: View Post
    I still get pissed if someone says Pluto isn't a real planet, ya know? (Side note: yes it is, because SHUT UP, THAT'S WHY.)

    .
    Bwahaha!

    I totally agree with you... and do understand that it can be very difficult to let go of what you have accepted to be true.

    Sometimes being forced out of your comfort zone is a good thing... though it often doesn't feel like it at the time that it's happening.
  21. Wolfsburg's Avatar
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    Jan 25, 2016, 1:46 PM - Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens (Post-release) #3196

    It seems highly unlikely to me that Snoke isn't a Force user (could've sworn I read somewhere canonical that he is) but it could be interesting if he isn't.
  22. oota goota's Avatar
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    Jan 25, 2016, 1:51 PM - Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens (Post-release) #3197

    Solo4114 said: View Post
    I think part of the problem here -- understandably -- is that it's very, very difficult for the hardcore fans to "unlearn what they have learned" with regards to the Star Wars universe from EU materials.

    I mean, just on the topic of the Sith alone, the EU had at least three separate "Tales of the Jedi" comic book arcs, the two KOTOR games on PC, the Old Republic MMO, and I have no idea how many novels. Moreover, unlike the stuff that happened after ROTJ, most of it hasn't been obviously discarded (yet). It hasn't been incorporated, either, but it hasn't been obviously overruled at all.

    So, much of what I suspect people think they know about any number of things relating to the Sith...they actually don't "know" in this current version of the Star Wars universe. But telling people "Watch this movie and don't think about what you previously read about the Sith" is like telling someone "Sit in that corner and don't think about a polar bear." You're gonna think about the bear, even if you're not supposed to.
    It might be an unintended consequence but I'm kind of relieved the EU is being swept away. With a few exceptions I just couldn't get into the material very much, I found the writing and most of the storylines and plots to be uninteresting and derivative. I know everyone's got there own opinion on the EU but I do think the film has cleaned house a bit If TFA is a fan film then I guess the EU was fan fiction.
  23. Bryancd's Avatar
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    Jan 25, 2016, 2:11 PM - Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens (Post-release) #3198

    Wolfsburg said: View Post
    It seems highly unlikely to me that Snoke isn't a Force user (could've sworn I read somewhere canonical that he is) but it could be interesting if he isn't.
    He is referred to in the VD as being steeped in dark side knowledge.
  24. Sourdoh's Avatar
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    Jan 25, 2016, 2:12 PM - Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens (Post-release) #3199

    As an aside ... I weary thinking all this speculation will wander it's way through our lives (if we have one) for another eternity before the next movie comes out. Whew! That will be truly dismal.
  25. AJTaliesen's Avatar
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    May 2014
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    Jan 25, 2016, 2:53 PM - Re: Star Wars: The Force Awakens (Post-release) #3200

    kristenhenry70 said: View Post
    For now, a couple of the movies have everyone assuming that being a bad guy force user and being Sith are the same thing and ending up being completely right about it.


    Completely right about it? This bit lost me.
    You skipped around. We had just talked about the PT: they saw a bad guy and said "Hey look I bet thats a Sith!" and lo and behold...they were right. It was a Sith. Now, we see the exact same kind of bad guy and say that it looks like a duck, talks like a duck, and people here come back with It's not a duck because it calls itself a cat!


    No... NOT straight up evil. That's what JJ Abrahms has been saying about Kylo since the beginning. He is NOT a traditional bad guy.

    If Kylo were straight up evil, he'd have dispatched Han Solo without a thought. But he was shown to be STRUGGLING with it immensely. he knew that Snoke had told him that this is something that he must do if he wants to attain full Dark Side power, but he had said himself that he didn't know if he had the strength to actually do it.
    At this point I wonder if you're trying to pick apart what I say just because you're still mad at Wook. If so it's ok, I'm not Wook. I loved this movie. Just discussing Star Wars the way nerds do.


    But I'll go ahead and clear it up anyway. Yes, Kylo is conflicted. He's trying to get rid of the good, even going so far as to kill his father to rid himself of goodness, leaving strait up evil behind...in his mind: completing his journey to becoming what he wants to become. (arguable whether he succeeds, I think he did not, but very clear what his goal is in doing it).

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