Star Wars: The Force Awakens (Post-release)

I feel bad for Tom and Lars that they're so disappointed in the film that it's killed (or grievously wounded) their fandom. I can empathize. I was an in-over-my-head Trek fan for most of my life. As in seriously immersed. Especially on the tech/logistics/starships aspects. Much time over the years spent gleaning any new tidbit on the ships at Wolf 359 (it frustrates me that we still only know fourteen of the forty ships that were at that battle), and hammering out anything that could be hammered out. All the way through Voyager, that held up. Then Nemesis and Enterprise and everything flagged as there was nothing to get to grips with. Some chewing over of old material, but with bad and schizophrenic, respectively, offerings like that... *shrug* And then, after faltering like that, to get hit with NuTrek in '09. Ugh. I could still (and did) watch the older series and movies, but NuTrek put such a bad taste in my mouth it was years before I could even think about delving into anything Treknical, and with the lack of new content in the timeline and eras I actually give a damn about, it's nothing like it was during TNG, DS9, and Voyager. Still just limping along.

I don't agree with them, but I can empathize. Myself, I'm going to my fifth viewing next week. Two more and I'll have tied with Avengers... and with how many times I saw all the Prequels put together, including the 3D release of TPM. I don't count my viewings of the OT, as I wasn't even ten by the time they were all out and gone again, thus I was dependent on my parents to fund my moviegoing. I keep noticing new things each time. Third viewing and I left whistling Rey's Theme under my breath. I still object to some things in the film, and some things that should have been, but I am so not tired of the ride yet.

My biggest grump is about the people defending the Rey-is-Luke's-daughter theory with the "the saga has always been about the Skywalkers" argument that makes me want to bang my head (or, preferably, their heads) against hard surfaces. The whole saga has only "always" been about the Skywalkers since 1996. Up until then, the Prequels that George plotted out, but then decided not to make, were going to be all about Obi-Wan. One generation was going to pass the torch to the next. Obi-Wan had a connection to Luke, albeit not a familial one. Rick McCallum coming in to help with the Special Editions was the voice that convinced George 1) to make the Prequels, 2) that they should focus on Anakin (rather than having him be just a supporting character), and 3) that the whole saga was about the rise, fall, and redemption of Anakin (thus kicking Luke out of the spotlight for the OT). A greater disservice to the Star Wars Universe I do not know.

So while I have no problem with Rey being Luke's daughter, I also have no problem with her not. Because the saga doesn't have to be "all about the Skywalkers".

--Jonah
 
Inquisitor Peregrinus said:
I feel bad for Tom and Lars that they're so disappointed in the film that it's killed (or grievously wounded) their fandom. I can empathize. I was an in-over-my-head Trek fan for most of my life. As in seriously immersed. Especially on the tech/logistics/starships aspects. Much time over the years spent gleaning any new tidbit on the ships at Wolf 359 (it frustrates me that we still only know fourteen of the forty ships that were at that battle), and hammering out anything that could be hammered out. All the way through Voyager, that held up. Then Nemesis and Enterprise and everything flagged as there was nothing to get to grips with. Some chewing over of old material, but with bad and schizophrenic, respectively, offerings like that... *shrug* And then, after faltering like that, to get hit with NuTrek in '09. Ugh. I could still (and did) watch the older series and movies, but NuTrek put such a bad taste in my mouth it was years before I could even think about delving into anything Treknical, and with the lack of new content in the timeline and eras I actually give a damn about, it's nothing like it was during TNG, DS9, and Voyager. Still just limping along.

I don't agree with them, but I can empathize. Myself, I'm going to my fifth viewing next week. Two more and I'll have tied with Avengers... and with how many times I saw all the Prequels put together, including the 3D release of TPM. I don't count my viewings of the OT, as I wasn't even ten by the time they were all out and gone again, thus I was dependent on my parents to fund my moviegoing. I keep noticing new things each time. Third viewing and I left whistling Rey's Theme under my breath. I still object to some things in the film, and some things that should have been, but I am so not tired of the ride yet.

My biggest grump is about the people defending the Rey-is-Luke's-daughter theory with the "the saga has always been about the Skywalkers" argument that makes me want to bang my head (or, preferably, their heads) against hard surfaces. The whole saga has only "always" been about the Skywalkers since 1996. Up until then, the Prequels that George plotted out, but then decided not to make, were going to be all about Obi-Wan. One generation was going to pass the torch to the next. Obi-Wan had a connection to Luke, albeit not a familial one. Rick McCallum coming in to help with the Special Editions was the voice that convinced George 1) to make the Prequels, 2) that they should focus on Anakin (rather than having him be just a supporting character), and 3) that the whole saga was about the rise, fall, and redemption of Anakin (thus kicking Luke out of the spotlight for the OT). A greater disservice to the Star Wars Universe I do not know.

So while I have no problem with Rey being Luke's daughter, I also have no problem with her not. Because the saga doesn't have to be "all about the Skywalkers".

--Jonah
Click to expand...


You know? You bring up a good point about the "technical" talk of it all. Much like star trek, star wars has always had enough exposition that we could obsess over it. Part of our fandom was creating the fan fiction from the worlds they build. From vehicles and places, to events and aliens. Part of that was programmed into us by Kenner.

But also like Trek, this new breed of "action over exposition" in Nu-trek and TFA means there's a lot less for us to bite down on. The blanks are too wide for us to build upon it.
 
Inquisitor Peregrinus said:
I feel bad for Tom and Lars that they're so disappointed in the film that it's killed (or grievously wounded) their fandom. I can empathize. I was an in-over-my-head Trek fan for most of my life. As in seriously immersed. Especially on the tech/logistics/starships aspects. Much time over the years spent gleaning any new tidbit on the ships at Wolf 359 (it frustrates me that we still only know fourteen of the forty ships that were at that battle), and hammering out anything that could be hammered out. All the way through Voyager, that held up. Then Nemesis and Enterprise and everything flagged as there was nothing to get to grips with. Some chewing over of old material, but with bad and schizophrenic, respectively, offerings like that... *shrug* And then, after faltering like that, to get hit with NuTrek in '09. Ugh. I could still (and did) watch the older series and movies, but NuTrek put such a bad taste in my mouth it was years before I could even think about delving into anything Treknical, and with the lack of new content in the timeline and eras I actually give a damn about, it's nothing like it was during TNG, DS9, and Voyager. Still just limping along.

I don't agree with them, but I can empathize. Myself, I'm going to my fifth viewing next week. Two more and I'll have tied with Avengers... and with how many times I saw all the Prequels put together, including the 3D release of TPM. I don't count my viewings of the OT, as I wasn't even ten by the time they were all out and gone again, thus I was dependent on my parents to fund my moviegoing. I keep noticing new things each time. Third viewing and I left whistling Rey's Theme under my breath. I still object to some things in the film, and some things that should have been, but I am so not tired of the ride yet.

My biggest grump is about the people defending the Rey-is-Luke's-daughter theory with the "the saga has always been about the Skywalkers" argument that makes me want to bang my head (or, preferably, their heads) against hard surfaces. The whole saga has only "always" been about the Skywalkers since 1996. Up until then, the Prequels that George plotted out, but then decided not to make, were going to be all about Obi-Wan. One generation was going to pass the torch to the next. Obi-Wan had a connection to Luke, albeit not a familial one. Rick McCallum coming in to help with the Special Editions was the voice that convinced George 1) to make the Prequels, 2) that they should focus on Anakin (rather than having him be just a supporting character), and 3) that the whole saga was about the rise, fall, and redemption of Anakin (thus kicking Luke out of the spotlight for the OT). A greater disservice to the Star Wars Universe I do not know.

So while I have no problem with Rey being Luke's daughter, I also have no problem with her not. Because the saga doesn't have to be "all about the Skywalkers".

--Jonah
Click to expand...

The genesis of the Skywalker Saga was a comment made by KK when the films were announced and the context was an effort to differentiate the numbered films vs. the Anthology or stand alone Star Wars stories. It is possible we are all being a bit too pedantic interpreting what she meant.
 
astroboy said:
You know? You bring up a good point about the "technical" talk of it all. Much like star trek, star wars has always had enough exposition that we could obsess over it. Part of our fandom was creating the fan fiction from the worlds they build. From vehicles and places, to events and aliens. Part of that was programmed into us by Kenner.

But also like Trek, this new breed of "action over exposition" in Nu-trek and TFA means there's a lot less for us to bite down on. The blanks are too wide for us to build upon it.
Click to expand...

I won't get into NuTrek and its problems. But TFA's biggest problem is having so much gorund to cover in one film to get us up to speed, the details suffered for the sake of the bigger picture. I feel a little like the "has he passed the tests of noble knighthood" scene in The Court Jester.

Bryancd said:
The genesis of the Skywalker Saga was a comment made by KK when the films were announced and the context was an effort to differentiate the numbered films vs. the Anthology or stand alone Star Wars stories. It is possible we are all being a bit too pedantic interpreting what she meant.
Click to expand...

Well, post-Prequels, the saga is all about the Skywalkers. It just wasn't always that way. I don't object to the former (even if I would have preferred six well-written and well-directed films focusing on Ewan McGregor's Obi-Wan leading into six George-delegated-to avoid-burnout films focusing on still-in-his-prime Mark Hamill, before passing the torch once more to a new generation in what would now be Episode XIII...). It's just when anyone says it was always that way that I Hulk out inside.

--Jonah
 
I think the prequels over did the exposition. They wanted to explain all this details. Overkill. ANH didn't tell us the Force was Midochlorians. They left it up to our imagination to fill in the blanks. Now character and technology wise, Lucas had explained it to death, watching that Vader suit breakdown on YouTube was hilarious. But would I have cared to hear the full breakdown of his Vitapaste tubes, etc? I don't think so. The most hardcore fans have costuming groups and forums for such things.
astroboy said:
You know? You bring up a good point about the "technical" talk of it all. Much like star trek, star wars has always had enough exposition that we could obsess over it. Part of our fandom was creating the fan fiction from the worlds they build. From vehicles and places, to events and aliens. Part of that was programmed into us by Kenner.

But also like Trek, this new breed of "action over exposition" in Nu-trek and TFA means there's a lot less for us to bite down on. The blanks are too wide for us to build upon it.
Click to expand...
 
Inquisitor Peregrinus said:
I feel bad for Tom and Lars that they're so disappointed in the film that it's killed (or grievously wounded) their fandom. I can empathize. I was an in-over-my-head Trek fan for most of my life. As in seriously immersed. Especially on the tech/logistics/starships aspects. Much time over the years spent gleaning any new tidbit on the ships at Wolf 359 (it frustrates me that we still only know fourteen of the forty ships that were at that battle), and hammering out anything that could be hammered out. All the way through Voyager, that held up. Then Nemesis and Enterprise and everything flagged as there was nothing to get to grips with. Some chewing over of old material, but with bad and schizophrenic, respectively, offerings like that... *shrug* And then, after faltering like that, to get hit with NuTrek in '09. Ugh. I could still (and did) watch the older series and movies, but NuTrek put such a bad taste in my mouth it was years before I could even think about delving into anything Treknical, and with the lack of new content in the timeline and eras I actually give a damn about, it's nothing like it was during TNG, DS9, and Voyager. Still just limping along.

I don't agree with them, but I can empathize. Myself, I'm going to my fifth viewing next week. Two more and I'll have tied with Avengers... and with how many times I saw all the Prequels put together, including the 3D release of TPM. I don't count my viewings of the OT, as I wasn't even ten by the time they were all out and gone again, thus I was dependent on my parents to fund my moviegoing. I keep noticing new things each time. Third viewing and I left whistling Rey's Theme under my breath. I still object to some things in the film, and some things that should have been, but I am so not tired of the ride yet.

My biggest grump is about the people defending the Rey-is-Luke's-daughter theory with the "the saga has always been about the Skywalkers" argument that makes me want to bang my head (or, preferably, their heads) against hard surfaces. The whole saga has only "always" been about the Skywalkers since 1996. Up until then, the Prequels that George plotted out, but then decided not to make, were going to be all about Obi-Wan. One generation was going to pass the torch to the next. Obi-Wan had a connection to Luke, albeit not a familial one. Rick McCallum coming in to help with the Special Editions was the voice that convinced George 1) to make the Prequels, 2) that they should focus on Anakin (rather than having him be just a supporting character), and 3) that the whole saga was about the rise, fall, and redemption of Anakin (thus kicking Luke out of the spotlight for the OT). A greater disservice to the Star Wars Universe I do not know.

So while I have no problem with Rey being Luke's daughter, I also have no problem with her not. Because the saga doesn't have to be "all about the Skywalkers".

--Jonah
Click to expand...

I understand the frustration as well. That's how I responded to the Prequels. They and a few other additional developments basically killed my interest in the franchise post-'99 or so. That faded with time, of course, and I grew to find new enjoyment of the older stuff, but really, I get the whole "There's nothing here for me anymore..." sense of sadness.

As for the "always about the Skywalkers," I'm with you that it didn't have to be that way, but I'm also ok with it having worked out that way. Plus, depending on what happens in the next two movies, you might get the best of both worlds, with the saga being about the Skywalkers AND the Kenobis... (and the Solos).

astroboy said:
You know? You bring up a good point about the "technical" talk of it all. Much like star trek, star wars has always had enough exposition that we could obsess over it. Part of our fandom was creating the fan fiction from the worlds they build. From vehicles and places, to events and aliens. Part of that was programmed into us by Kenner.

But also like Trek, this new breed of "action over exposition" in Nu-trek and TFA means there's a lot less for us to bite down on. The blanks are too wide for us to build upon it.
Click to expand...

But, really, it wasn't. I know it's hard to see, but if ALL you have is the movies, then the original films barely scratch the surface of providing background. The background they do provide is the most cursory background possible.

The thing is, the entire EU empire that spawned from these movies filled in a ton of those blanks. West End Games' stuff, the comic books, the novels, the merchandising, etc., it all created the external technical stuff we hardcore fans love to obsess over. But the film itself? JUST the film? There ain't much there. The ship is a Y-wing, not a Koensayr BTL-A4 (as distinguished from the BTL-B Clone Wars era, or the BTL-S3 two-man fighter-bomber, or the BTL-A4 "Longprobe" reconnaissance fighter). It isn't until you start seeing the publication of all this extra stuff that you learn the background.

Inquisitor Peregrinus said:
Well, post-Prequels, the saga is all about the Skywalkers. It just wasn't always that way. I don't object to the former (even if I would have preferred six well-written and well-directed films focusing on Ewan McGregor's Obi-Wan leading into six George-delegated-to avoid-burnout films focusing on still-in-his-prime Mark Hamill, before passing the torch once more to a new generation in what would now be Episode XIII...). It's just when anyone says it was always that way that I Hulk out inside.

--Jonah
Click to expand...

That's how I feel whenever I hear the phrase "I always intended to..."

crabra comander said:
I think the prequels over did the exposition. They wanted to explain all this details. Overkill. ANH didn't tell us the Force was Midochlorians. They left it up to our imagination to fill in the blanks. Now character and technology wise, Lucas had explained it to death, watching that Vader suit breakdown on YouTube was hilarious. But would I have cared to hear the full breakdown of his Vitapaste tubes, etc? I don't think so. The most hardcore fans have costuming groups and forums for such things.
Click to expand...

I think it's not that they overdid the exposition, per se, but rather that (A) the exposition they did was often unnecessary, and (B) they didn't do enough exposition for the things that arguably were necessary (e.g. how the Republic worked, so as to lay the groundwork for how Palpatine would take power). The balance was off, and the choices for what became the subjects of exposition were off.
 
crabra comander said:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FoVpSPXGCvc

I guess the Force and that aren't the same....

And it's mention just further adds to my thoughts on unnecessary exposition in the prequels...what was the point of mentioning them?
Click to expand...
You're absolutely right, they are an unnecessary addition to the world of Star Wars, so I take no issue with you and others who say so. What I do take issue with is people who get bent out of shape because they think that it "ruins the mysticism of the Force as explained in the OT" when it is explained very clearly, as evidenced in the video you posted, that that is not the case. They are simply the conduit through which the Jedi access the "mystical energy field" that "surrounds us and penetrates us and binds the galaxy together"
 
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12439072_10153861403096974_9092253961266191596_n.jpg
 
For me, I just focus on what I like. In fact there was relatively little of the SW franchise I did like outside of the OT, until TFA came along. I thought the PT and TCW were awful and I've more recently given up on Rebels. They didn't destroy my love for SW and I still have the OT to enjoy (although GL's continual tampering with them was annoying). I personally think it's a little silly to let one aspect you don't like destroy your interests in the aspects you do like. Don't like the ST? Just ignore it and move on.
 
Wolfsburg said:
For me, I just focus on what I like. In fact there was relatively little of the SW franchise I did like outside of the OT, until TFA came along. I thought the PT and TCW were awful and I've more recently given up on Rebels. They didn't destroy my love for SW and I still have the OT to enjoy (although GL's continual tampering with them was annoying). I personally think it's a little silly to let one aspect you don't like destroy your interests in the aspects you do like. Don't like the ST? Just ignore it and move on.
Click to expand...


Exactly how I feel. Take what you want and leave the rest. Nothing that comes after the OT can ruin my love for them. It just can't. Just ignore whatever you don't like. The OT was just as much about the time and the place for me and nothing can touch my memories of them no matter how bad. It's like having a plate of food and saying you don't like the peas on there so they'll ruin your enjoyment of the rest of the plate which you love. Just eat the rest and leave the peas. Lol. ;)


Ben
 
Inquisitor Peregrinus said:
...Well, post-Prequels, the saga is all about the Skywalkers. It just wasn't always that way. I don't object to the former (even if I would have preferred six well-written and well-directed films focusing on Ewan McGregor's Obi-Wan...
Click to expand...
For me, Ewan McGregor's performance as Obi-Wan is the saving grace of the Prequel Trilogy movies, and the primary reason I don't dislike them as much as I probably would otherwise.

In a few photos I've seen (or probably the same photo re-posted) accompanying online articles discussing Disney's scheduling for the upcoming Star Wars movies, there is one graphic that says "Kenobi: The Balance of the Force". And I've recently read they're trying to get McGregor to commit to playing Kenobi again, presumably for one or more of the stand-alone movies. I'm hoping both will happen, because I'm sure Kenobi did more on Tattooine than sit on a hill and watch little Luke grow up (especially if the theories about Rey being his granddaughter or great-granddaughter come to pass).
 
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