Will we live to see Avatar 2 ?

[CT1138]

As I've said before - IMO the fact that 'Avatar' made so little impact is the most interesting thing about it.

I disagree, Avatar made a huge impact, and continues to do so. Heck, this very thread is proof of that. It's not that the movie is forgettable, it's that people actively try to pretend they don't remember it. Avatar was THE cinematic release of 2009 and 2010. A lot of people saw the movie, many of them multiple times. It was so financially viable, it was rereleased even after its initial run left it the single highest grossing movie to this day. Then, in 2011, for some reason the zeitgeist decided "this movie is cringe let's try to forget about it." Except they didn't. People keep talking about it, even if to say they disliked it. People STILL question when the sequels are coming. And, as much as they don't want to, you can easily tell when somebody is purposely trying to not remember details they can clearly remember.

Releasing that movie in 2009 . . . imagine a more recent tentpole action movie coming out and taking a strong position on Donald Trump. Oh god, just don't. Even if I agree with the movie's position - don't go there. Please. No. Enough. Spare me. Make it stop. I thought I was buying two hours of escapism.

But there have been? Several of them, in fact. There was Netflix's Space Force satirizing Trump's silly space themed military branch. Then there was Netflix's "Don't Look Up" satirizing Trump's cult of personality. Also let's not forget Showtime's "Our Cartoon President" which ran for 3 seasons. And this is wholely ignoring the countless other politically charged "so-called" escapist movies - Casablanca, The Great Dictator, Dr. Strangelove, Lord of the Rings, Star Wars, The Incredibles... Name a movie, there's probably some kind of message being conveyed in it. I hate the term "escapism" because it conveys an idea that never existed. Even in the 1930s, during the height of "escapist" movies, there were PLENTY of movies that were superficially escapist with sociopolitical messages. It Happened One Night, The Count of Monte Cristo, Modern Times, even The Wizard of Oz!

I think it's telling that you've seen basically no serious fandoms spark up about it, no people cosplaying as any of the soldiers or whatever, basically nobody these days doing one of the blue skinned aliens, etc.

NGL, I actually find that pretty sad. The soldiers in the movie were all done practically, and there were some pretty cool props made for the movie.

I don't recall Avatar being especially preachy or political. I mean, I get the "Dances with Wolves" thing coupled with some vague eco-friendly "save the rainforests" stuff and maybe "Corporations are bad, m'kay?" But outside of that, I don't really remember any political implications...but that may simply be because I don't recall much about the movie at all.

I mean, most of Cameron's movie convey a message of some sort. Aliens has a clear Vietnam War analogue going on. Terminator is make love not war. You'd have to be an idiot not to read into Terminator 2's closing line, "If a machine can learn the value of human life, maybe we can too." And Titanic is very pro-feminist (actually, so are Aliens, and the Terminator movies). I think part of Cameron's genius is that his movies superficially attract a more "macho" crowd though movies like Aliens, Terminator, Rambo 2, etc, but when examined thematically, they contain a more progressive message. He gets people in the seats with big effects, big guns, big explosions, then shows them a message once he's got the audience. I think that some of his fans think that Cameron lost his touch with Titanic because as a director, he became so well established that he felt more comfortable becoming more open with the messages in his movies, leading to a romance movie in 1997, and then an eco movie in 2009.

 

[Solo4114]

Minor side note: while other people saw the movie multiple times, and I remember friends saying it was a mindblowing, amazing experience, I actually didn't see the movie until probably about 2013 or so. As I noted, I saw it at home, on my nice 54" plasma (which in 2012 was state of the art). I wore the 3D glasses for it.


Prior to that, I hadn't wanted to see it unless I could do a decent 3D watch of it, given that that was the big draw.

The 3D was initially impressive, but grew less so over the course of the film. Visually, it was pretty, but by 2013 when I was watching it, it just reminded me of a video game. Like, it wasn't that big a deal to me.

The thing that got me, though, was my general sense of "I don't get it. Why was everyone so over the moon for this movie? It's really nothing special outside of the visuals." And my ultimate conclusion was....that really was all there was to it. It was visually spectacular in 2009 and....that's it.

It reminds me of the hype that surrounded Final Fantasy: The Spirits Within when that film first came out. Another technological marvel in its day which has since been largely ignored. I watched that one, too, and found it about as "meh" as Avatar. The story was nothing special, the visuals were fairly impressive, and several years later, technology marched on in leaps and bounds and completely eclipsed what the film did.

 

[batguy]

I disagree, Avatar made a huge impact, and continues to do so. Heck, this very thread is proof of that. It's not that the movie is forgettable, it's that people actively try to pretend they don't remember it. Avatar was THE cinematic release of 2009 and 2010. A lot of people saw the movie, many of them multiple times. It was so financially viable, it was rereleased even after its initial run left it the single highest grossing movie to this day. Then, in 2011, for some reason the zeitgeist decided "this movie is cringe let's try to forget about it." Except they didn't. People keep talking about it, even if to say they disliked it. People STILL question when the sequels are coming. And, as much as they don't want to, you can easily tell when somebody is purposely trying to not remember details they can clearly remember.

Sure, 'Avatar' sold a ton of tickets. Everyone saw it. But its cultural impact was undersized in proportion to that. 'Terminator 2' and 'Titanic' were both parodied & referenced all over the culture like crazy for years afterwards. That just didn't happen with 'Avatar' the way it did with most movies that sell so many tickets.

But there have been? Several of them, in fact. There was Netflix's Space Force satirizing Trump's silly space themed military branch. Then there was Netflix's "Don't Look Up" satirizing Trump's cult of personality. Also let's not forget Showtime's "Our Cartoon President" which ran for 3 seasons. And this is wholely ignoring the countless other politically charged "so-called" escapist movies - Casablanca, The Great Dictator, Dr. Strangelove, Lord of the Rings, Star Wars, The Incredibles... Name a movie, there's probably some kind of message being conveyed in it. I hate the term "escapism" because it conveys an idea that never existed. Even in the 1930s, during the height of "escapist" movies, there were PLENTY of movies that were superficially escapist with sociopolitical messages. It Happened One Night, The Count of Monte Cristo, Modern Times, even The Wizard of Oz!

I'm not saying that political satire or references cannot sell. I'm saying that 'Avatar' rolled the dice by tackling a hot political issue and it didn't really win. Tentpole action flicks are generally not the best place for topical political stuff. Not many of them tackle a RED-HOT political issue, do it DIRECTLY, and win.

In 2009 it was totally impossible to watch 'Avatar' and not be thinking about the US invading Iraq. There was a whole string of other movies in the mid-late 2000s that dealt with the Iraq war in some way, and most of them bombed. The subject was box-office poison at that time. (I'm not saying whether it should have been that way, I'm just saying it was.)

When people complained that 'Avatar's story was unoriginal, I think they were trying to articulate something more than that. The plot was unoriginal and it had a larger THEME/MESSAGE that everyone was tired of thinking about in 2009. There was also the production design of it all . . . nothing about the movie felt fresh except the blue Thundercats and the 3D.

The public's reaction to the Thundercats was not total revulsion, but they were not big hits either. (The public loved E.T. Chewbacca. The Ewoks. Etc. Those were big hits when it comes to creatures.) The only remaining novelty with 'Avatar' was the 3D.

 

[batguy]

The thing that got me, though, was my general sense of "I don't get it. Why was everyone so over the moon for this movie? It's really nothing special outside of the visuals." And my ultimate conclusion was....that really was all there was to it. It was visually spectacular in 2009 and....that's it.

It reminds me of the hype that surrounded Final Fantasy: The Spirits Within when that film first came out. Another technological marvel in its day which has since been largely ignored. I watched that one, too, and found it about as "meh" as Avatar. The story was nothing special, the visuals were fairly impressive, and several years later, technology marched on in leaps and bounds and completely eclipsed what the film did.

So true.

 

[CT1138]

Sure, 'Avatar' sold a ton of tickets. Everyone saw it. But its cultural impact was undersized in proportion to that. 'Terminator 2' and 'Titanic' were both parodied & referenced all over the culture like crazy for years afterwards.

And Avatar wasn't? I remember plenty of parodies of Avatar in the years after it was released. South Park, CollegeHumor, NewGrounds, Robot Chicken, The Simpsons, American Dad, Family Guy, MadTV... the list goes on! Heck, Moon Knight just made an Avatar joke last week! Whenever there's even the scrappiest bit of news from the sequel, it's bumped to the top of every entertainment blog and news site on the internet. Because as much as people say they don't care, they do.

I'm not saying that political satire or references cannot sell. I'm saying that 'Avatar' rolled the dice by tackling a hot political issue and it didn't really win. Tentpole action flicks are generally not the best place for topical political stuff. The ones that tackle a hot political issue head-on and win are in the minority.

Except most do? Star Wars constantly tackles political fascism. Jurassic Park has strong anti-corporatist tones. Just about every animated movie Disney and Pixar have released in the last 10 years carries some sort of political message. The X-Men movies have never hidden their pro-LGBT messages. The MCU has generally been the exception, and even those movies have not been without their politics. There's a lot of big movies out there that tackle hot bed politics head-on and win.

 

[batguy]

And Avatar wasn't? I remember plenty of parodies of Avatar in the years after it was released. South Park, CollegeHumor, NewGrounds, Robot Chicken, The Simpsons, American Dad, Family Guy, MadTV... the list goes on! Heck, Moon Knight just made an Avatar joke last week! Whenever there's even the scrappiest bit of news from the sequel, it's bumped to the top of every entertainment blog and news site on the internet. Because as much as people say they don't care, they do.

With Star Wars, T2, Titanic, ET, etc, people were quoting famous lines and whole scenes for years & decades after they came out. Even today kids know lines & scenes from those movies, soundtrack tunes, etc, without ever having seen them.

It just isn't the same with 'Avatar.' Not in proportion to the amount of tickets it sold. Most of the pop culture references were in the immediate aftermath of the movie and they mostly consisted of visual parodies of the Thundercats. Pop culture's tone has been less reverent & more mocking than with the other big hits.

Except most do? Star Wars constantly tackles political fascism. Jurassic Park has strong anti-corporatist tones. Just about every animated movie Disney and Pixar have released in the last 10 years carries some sort of political message. The X-Men movies have never hidden their pro-LGBT messages. The MCU has generally been the exception, and even those movies have not been without their politics. There's a lot of big movies out there that tackle hot bed politics head-on and win.

Political Fascism, anti-corporatism, and LGBT inclusiveness are all broader concepts. They aren't nearly as direct & immediate as Avatar was. The level of controversy just isn't comparable.

Look at any discussion of Avatar like this, and count up the number of times somebody says it was "preachy" or something to that effect. People just don't react that way to Star Wars, Jurassic Park, Terminator 2, Titanic, etc. It's not the same.


'Terminator 2' was pretty preachy about the use of technology and the human race's failings. But that issue is not politically hot. It doesn't get forum discussions locked. The Iraq war was locking forums in the 2000s.

'Titanic' was at least moderately preachy. But there was no red-hot controversy because nobody disagrees with it. "The Gilded Age's social class stratification was bad, mmmkay? Skimping on lifeboats out of hubris is bad, mmmkay?"

 

[CT1138]

With Star Wars, T2, Titanic, ET, etc, people were quoting famous lines and whole scenes for years & decades after they came out. Even today kids know lines & scenes from those movies, soundtrack tunes, etc, without ever having seen them.

It just isn't the same with 'Avatar.' Not in proportion to the amount of tickets it sold. Most of the pop culture references were in the immediate aftermath of the movie and they mostly consisted of visual parodies of the Thundercats. Pop culture's tone has been less reverent & more mocking than with the other big hits.

I don't really hear anybody talk about Titanic or ET, anymore? In fact, in some online discussions when it comes up, most people say they find ET creepy if they've seen it at all. And unlike any of the movies we've discussed, Star Wars has had continuous content since the 1990s. It's a 45 year old franchise that is constantly putting out media for the last 25 years, be it games, comics, TV series, movies, books, toys, etc. It continuously has a cultural footprint. Unlike Terminator, which has been culturally dead since T3 despite still having made movies. T2 is probably the rare exception where its cultural footprint is greater than the original movie. The original movie is culturally dated, but T2 has a timeless presence. It doesn't date itself with useless 90s references.

Actually, if we were having this discussion in 1992, we would hit many of the same talking points with Star Wars as we are with Avatar. "It's no longer culturally relevant. It's culturally dead. We'll never see anymore movies. It's just a Buck Rogers rip off. Will anybody even care about Star Wars by the time any sequels come out?" It is ONLY because of the PT and Lucas and then Disney ensuring constant content since the PT that it's still culturally relevant.

And for the record, you're the only person I've ever seen reference Thundercats in relation to Avatar. I've heard Fern Gully, Pocahontas, and Dances With Wolves aplenty, but never Thundercats. And the fact that Avatar has a greater cultural footprint than any of the movies it's been compared to shows that it is none of those movies.

Political Fascism, anti-corporatism, and LGBT inclusiveness are all broader concepts. They aren't nearly as direct & immediate as Avatar was. The level of controversy just isn't comparable.

No? I've seen plenty of forum threads locked over those discussions. Some pundits make entire careers of bashing AntiFa, Occupy Wallstreet, and the LGBT. I would consider them all immediate, relevant, and direct topics, and far more controversial than some hippy dippy save the trees message.

 

[batguy]

Actually, if we were having this discussion in 1992, we would hit many of the same talking points with Star Wars as we are with Avatar. "It's no longer culturally relevant. It's culturally dead. We'll never see anymore movies. It's just a Buck Rogers rip off. Will anybody even care about Star Wars by the time any sequels come out?" It is ONLY because of the PT and Lucas and then Disney ensuring constant content since the PT that it's still culturally relevant.

I agree that SW's relevance would have faded more in the 1990s without prequels & reissues. But that's normal for practically any franchise.

The cultural impact & staying power of SW isn't even in the same ballpark with Avatar. I can't imagine anyone who was around for the original SW run saying that.

And for the record, you're the only person I've ever seen reference Thundercats in relation to Avatar. I've heard Fern Gully, Pocahontas, and Dances With Wolves aplenty, but never Thundercats. And the fact that Avatar has a greater cultural footprint than any of the movies it's been compared to shows that it is none of those movies.

Really? I heard the Thundercats comparison a lot when the movie came out.

From the first page of a Google image search:

No? I've seen plenty of forum threads locked over those discussions. Some pundits make entire careers of bashing AntiFa, Occupy Wallstreet, and the LGBT. I would consider them all immediate, relevant, and direct topics, and far more controversial than some hippy dippy save the trees message.

That wasn't my point. My point is that those other huge blockbuster movies didn't cause political controversy like 'Avatar' did.

T2 did not provoke a lot of heated debates about whether the creation of Skynet was a justified reaction to Soviet aggression in the 1980s. People didn't come out of Star Wars complaining that the Empire was a preachy critique of the US military. Those movies didn't hit on controversial topics so directly. 'Avatar' did. That's the difference.

 

[Psab keel]

Some films express their themes better than others. It all comes down to how overt the messaging is and I think the difference lies in having a direct allegory vs speaking in universal terms. Tolkien and C.S. Lewis are perfect examples of this. Lewis concentrated on allegory and Tolkien's work was more universal. Both authors work are cultural milestones but allegory is typically more pedantic than a universal approach because it's purpose is to drive home a point.

The reason so many people have an aversion to Avatar is the way its theme is conveyed. Even if you agree with it, it's not as deftly woven into the story. By comparison a film like T2 is FAR better because it's characters and plot are so universal, so relatable, that it doesn't come across as being condescending. I saw Avatar twice in the theater. The visuals were pretty but halfway through the second viewing I felt like I was being beaten over the head with Cameron's politics. His tone and the promotion around the movie from Cameron himself came across to me as incredibly arrogant as if the public was too stupid to see what he saw.

For my tastes Avatar wasn't as entertaining because it was clear Cameron was more interested in telling me how he felt about something than he was with telling me a story. Fiction is an artistic expression but if all it expresses is a person's thoughts and holds little regard for how an audience can identify with it, that will determine how much of an impact the story will make throughout generations.

There's a reason why preachers are less popular than entertainers because people don't typically respond well to being told what to think or how to act.

 

[joberg]

The message was somewhat blatant with Avatar. The other movies made their messages more "subtle" let's say. Verhoeven's message, coming from a foreigner looking at how the police forces are dealing with crime in the U.S.(Robocop) vs the Dutch police for example. Every movie has a message...period!!

 

[Knightmare]

Glad someone remembers the 3D with Avatar thats was a big thing back then . Maybe they will try it again ? Over the years I have heard that JC has pushed the effects to a new level never seen before with these films . Is it still groundbreaking seeing it's taken so long to make that remains to be seen .

 

[batguy]

The tech advancement that Cameron has talked about for A2 is shooting the Navvi (Thundercats) underwater. That's a legit advancement but I doubt it will be viewed as something major. It's the kind of thing that interests Cameron more than most people. 'The Abyss' broke new ground like that too, but it didn't impress the box office in proportion with the effort.

IMO the success of A2 is gonna depend mostly on whether Cameron bothers to hang a better story on the tech this time. And yeah, make the messaging less heavy-handed.

I doubt A2 will be too bad even in a worst-case. Cameron is such a powerhouse in general that his disappointments are still better than a lot of people's successes. If the first Avatar movie had come from an unknown director/creator I think it would have a better rep.

 

[Cappy]

IMO the success of A2 is gonna depend mostly on whether Cameron bothers to hang a better story on the tech this time. And yeah, make the messaging less heavy-handed.

Expect a dazzling 3+ hour movie telling us how worthless we are as a species.
That's my prediction. Why pay someone for that.

 

[Cephus]

Expect a dazzling 3+ hour movie telling us how worthless we are as a species.
That's my prediction. Why pay someone for that.

That's a hard pass from me too.

 

[Knightmare]

Expect a dazzling 3+ hour movie telling us how worthless we are as a species.
That's my prediction. Why pay someone for that.

Yeah its pretty much humans are bad lol

 

[Cappy]

And wait...…………………. We are lucky enough to maybe get a couple more movies
in the same vein. Speaking of veins, the thought of being preached at by people who
don't have the real world hardships faced by everyday run of the mill humans, makes me want
to open mine.

 

[CT1138]

That wasn't my point. My point is that those other huge blockbuster movies didn't cause political controversy like 'Avatar' did.

I would not quite say Avatar caused much stirring in terms of political controversy. It was derided for the handling of the message for being preachy, sure, but it's not like The Dark Knight Rises, where pundits somehow connected Bane's existence to being an attack on Mitt Romney and Bane Capital.

People didn't come out of Star Wars complaining that the Empire was a preachy critique of the US military. Those movies didn't hit on controversial topics so directly.

I'm sorry, have you spoken with Star Wars fans in the last 20 years? Complaining about Star Wars being preachy, SJWy, and that the Empire aren't THAT bad of people has become the cornerstone of any fandom discussion.

 

[batguy]

I would not quite say Avatar caused much stirring in terms of political controversy. It was derided for the handling of the message for being preachy, sure, but it's not like The Dark Knight Rises, where pundits somehow connected Bane's existence to being an attack on Mitt Romney and Bane Capital.

The world is so jacked up these days that some people would read political BS into a new roadrunner & coyote cartoon.

But not very many people. A few loud provocative outliers . . . are still just a few outliers.

I'm sorry, have you spoken with Star Wars fans in the last 20 years? Complaining about Star Wars being preachy, SJWy, and that the Empire aren't THAT bad of people has become the cornerstone of any fandom discussion.

Star Wars "in the last 20 years" and listening to fanboys? That's a totally different ballgame.

My argument was that the original SW movies became popular classics, among the general public, and they were not considered politically-charged. I don't think there is any disputing this.

The Disney-era SW movies are not as beloved. They also draw more complaints about political agendas. It's funny how often those two things correlate.



Take a poll of a few dozen random people in public. Tell them to pick one show with a heavy political message:

- RR & coyote
- Avatar
- Dark Knight Rises
- SW/New Hope

We all know what the prevailing answer would be.

 

[CT1138]

As I've said, I've never seen people complain about Avatar being political, but I feel like I'm just talking to myself at this point.

Then again, back in the 60s and 70s when Looney Tunes and SW first came out, politics weren't an everyday discussion topic with movies like they have become since the 2000s. Star Wars: A New Hope had plenty of political themes, but Space Nazis were also the baddies and back then everybody agreed Nazis were bad.

 

[Treadwell]

I've seen plenty of political complaints about Avatar being tree-hugging or whatever.
And Looney Tunes started in 1929.