Why do so many people think Star Trek: Into Darkness was bad?

People hate Star Trek Into Darkness because "fans" have an unbelievably rigid and therefore unrealistic expectation of what Trek is.

yep, just like the folks who hate the prequels....
it's not bad writing. It's Star Wars, so it must be good, right?!
And Fantastic Four Rise of the Silver Surfer, Great Movie.. RIGHT?
And Superman 3... no... not that one, the other Superman 3...Oops... Superman Returns....nothing wrong with that one right?
And who didn't love Batman Forever and Batman and Robin?
And Spiderman 3... what a great end to that trilogy of films.
Let's not forget that wonderful Wolverine movie.
Oh, And Who didn't love Green Lantern?

those Star Trek fans should just learn to shut up and buy movie tickets.

Fans are allowed to have expectations.

It's this simple: It was stupid. And all the production values, fight scenes and explosions couldn't distract me from that fact.

it was a really poorly written script, therefore I found none of the characters, or their actions believable.

I can pick the script apart all day long... but at the end of the day, the 3 "writers" who put this together, hoped that a bunch of vague Star Trek references would make me overlook how poorly constructed the story was.

And I don't just mean that as a Star Trek fan. I mean, if you took every Star Trek reference out of it, it would still be bad.

The story was every bit as well concieved and executed as Lost, and Abrams other "product". Slick and empty.

If you're an Abrams fanboy, and you think he can do no wrong... well then enjoy....

In a thread titled "Why did you think it was bad?", what did you expect to find?
 
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*SIGH*
saw the movie earlier, and all i can say is WTF
this still isnt Star Trek, i dont care what anyone says.
the movie was promoted as one thing and we got another.....
didnt care for the throw-away use of khan, fanboys be damned.
if they are going to continue these movies (hopefully jj cant ruin star wars any more than lucas did with the prequels), they need to come up with a ORIGINAL story for once.
 
those Star Trek fans should just learn to shut up and buy movie tickets.

Fans are allowed to have expectations.

It's this simple: It was stupid. And all the production values, fight scenes and explosions couldn't distract me from that fact.

it was a really poorly written script, therefore I found none of the characters, or their actions believable.

I can pick the script apart all day long... but at the end of the day, the 3 "writers" who put this together, hoped that a bunch of vague Star Trek references would make me overlook how poorly constructed the story was.

And I don't just mean that as a Star Trek fan. I mean, if you took every Star Trek reference out of it, it would still be bad.

The story was every bit as well concieved and executed as Lost, and Abrams other "product". Slick and empty.
Star Trek Into Darkness - Rotten Tomatoes
 
IT WAS AWFUL!


Although in fairness, I haven't seen it yet. :)


Although, the more I think about it, the more I've come to believe that Trek -- at its core -- is better as a TV show than as a big budget film franchise. Whenever Trek goes "big" it loses parts of the things that made the original series (and aspects of TNG) great. Plus, you can forgive the occasional lame episode because you know that next week will be better (presumably). That's tougher to do with films where you get ONE shot every 3-ish years.


I've decided to approach the film with the intent of watching a spaceship roller coaster ride...and that's about it. And perhaps as a preview of the vibe we'd get for future Star Wars films. Hopefully I won't be horridly disappointed.
 
The story was every bit as well concieved and executed as Lost, and Abrams other "product". Slick and empty.
If you're an Abrams fanboy, and you think he can do no wrong... well then enjoy....

There's definitely some truth to that. I tried watching Lost and could not see the appeal. Partly because it immediately had that feel of "we are totally making this up as we go and have no end to this story in mind." and partly because I think most of the stuff on TV is formulaic trash that uses the same mold with a different style of packaging.

I think he gets a lot more credit than is merited.
Super 8... more or less Spielberg rip-off crap.
Cloverfield... could have been a pretty awesome giant monster movie. Instead I was pretty much begging for the epileptic seizure it should have induced. Awesome monster... craptastic acting. I hate the guy that was behind the camera through the whole movie. The entire concept was moronic.
Mission Impossibles... gadgety crap.
Revolution... stopped watching after the first POS episode.
He's credited with other crap, like the screenplay for Armageddon.

I briefly watched Fringe and couldn't get into it although it looks like it kind of got better and I'd be willing to give it another shot.

I think he's like a kid being handed a blank check and told to go have fun. His movies have cool effects and action, but no real substance.

Having said all that... I still think the Treks were good... but I have absolutely no expectations for Star Wars.
 
I think I should just reference how I felt about Trek '09. I liked the movie for what it is, a fun movie with a lot of action, but it is not MY Star Trek. You could have told the same exact story without any references to Star Trek or the names of the characters and it would not have made a bit of difference. People would still go to see it because they have been told it is the next great blockbuster of the summer, not because it is the next Star Trek movie.
 
You could have told the same exact story without any references to Star Trek or the names of the characters and it would not have made a bit of difference.

I guess I don't know understand what the essence of Trek is that makes these NOT Trek.
They seem to give a lot more attention to Spock, Kirk, and Uhura than the rest of the crew. In some ways I'm thankful... I could only take so much of the new Chekov. I like Sulu. I like Bones (although he could tone it down a bit and the chemistry between him Kirk and Spock isn't what it was in TOS) and Scottie is about on par with what I would want.

What else is there. The tech is there. The aliens are there. The Federation is there. The ships are there. There's only so much to Trek both on and under the surface. I guess I need to go back and rewatch TOS because, while it was enjoyable, I don't remember it being so mindblowing that I'd completely dismiss these new movies. Not that it's a fair comparison anyway... TOS and the JJ movies. If you compare the original crew movies to the JJ movies... I'd say you're getting less in some areas, more in others. Without a doubt II and III were the best of the originals. Effects were great for their time (and probably even for our time since they were still using practical effects). Acting was more or less great from what I remember.

What people seem to keep overlooking is that the original movies didn't have to compress any backstory into the film... it was already established in the series... kind of. Here you are re-booting the series and making some significant changes, essentially throwing in an origin story of several characters while still trying to tie it together with a story that brings elements from the Trek Prime universe.

I don't know why I'm trying to defend this movie so much... Maybe in <10 years we'll get yet another reboot like Spider-man did... and everyone can rip that one apart as well.
 
I guess I don't know understand what the essence of Trek is that makes these NOT Trek.
They seem to give a lot more attention to Spock, Kirk, and Uhura than the rest of the crew. In some ways I'm thankful... I could only take so much of the new Chekov. I like Sulu. I like Bones (although he could tone it down a bit and the chemistry between him Kirk and Spock isn't what it was in TOS) and Scottie is about on par with what I would want.

What else is there. The tech is there. The aliens are there. The Federation is there. The ships are there. There's only so much to Trek both on and under the surface. I guess I need to go back and rewatch TOS because, while it was enjoyable, I don't remember it being so mindblowing that I'd completely dismiss these new movies. Not that it's a fair comparison anyway... TOS and the JJ movies. If you compare the original crew movies to the JJ movies... I'd say you're getting less in some areas, more in others. Without a doubt II and III were the best of the originals. Effects were great for their time (and probably even for our time since they were still using practical effects). Acting was more or less great from what I remember.

What people seem to keep overlooking is that the original movies didn't have to compress any backstory into the film... it was already established in the series... kind of. Here you are re-booting the series and making some significant changes, essentially throwing in an origin story of several characters while still trying to tie it together with a story that brings elements from the Trek Prime universe.

I don't know why I'm trying to defend this movie so much... Maybe in <10 years we'll get yet another reboot like Spider-man did... and everyone can rip that one apart as well.

If you choose to rewatch TOS, you may start to recall the times they took a few moments for thoughtfulness and meaning.


The USS Voyager dedication plaque has a quote from Tennyson enscribed on it..........
"For I dipt into the future far as human eye could see, saw the vision of the world, and all the wonder that would be."

And think of the Star Trek mission statement said before every epsiode of TOS and TNG. What it really means.
Mission statements are to remind us amongst all the distractions and false paths to stay on course.

Space is our frontier, the ultimate one.
We will build these starships with bold names like Enterprise to explore them. That is their mission. It's purpose.
To seek out new life and new civilizations.. .thus learning about ourselves in the process, think in new ways.
Boldy go where no human being or any being has ever gone before.. to not let fear of the unknown stop us.
To take those big risks for knowledge both of space and inward in that process.

That that "utopia" society that is Star Trek's earth came about because of the above endeavors improving the human condition.


Put in the right moments recognizing these things, that the above IS the highest purpose that the Enterprise ultimately serves, more important than the crew aboard her even. It doesn't have to dominate the entire story. Just remind people why she's out there now and then.
 
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I guess I don't know understand what the essence of Trek is that makes these NOT Trek.
They seem to give a lot more attention to Spock, Kirk, and Uhura than the rest of the crew. In some ways I'm thankful... I could only take so much of the new Chekov. I like Sulu. I like Bones (although he could tone it down a bit and the chemistry between him Kirk and Spock isn't what it was in TOS) and Scottie is about on par with what I would want.

What else is there. The tech is there. The aliens are there. The Federation is there. The ships are there. There's only so much to Trek both on and under the surface. I guess I need to go back and rewatch TOS because, while it was enjoyable, I don't remember it being so mindblowing that I'd completely dismiss these new movies. Not that it's a fair comparison anyway... TOS and the JJ movies. If you compare the original crew movies to the JJ movies... I'd say you're getting less in some areas, more in others. Without a doubt II and III were the best of the originals. Effects were great for their time (and probably even for our time since they were still using practical effects). Acting was more or less great from what I remember.

What people seem to keep overlooking is that the original movies didn't have to compress any backstory into the film... it was already established in the series... kind of. Here you are re-booting the series and making some significant changes, essentially throwing in an origin story of several characters while still trying to tie it together with a story that brings elements from the Trek Prime universe.

Well, that's kind of my point, actually.

It's NOT Trek because, for one thing, it erases the rich background that created Trek films, and replaces it with whatever they pull together in the new films. It's precisely because they tossed out the continuity that this feels like..."not Trek." So, people who talk about how Kirk was a bookworm according to this one passage in an episode on TOS, end up being pissed that he's reduced to this skirt-chasing daredevil, which he definitely wasn't in TOS or any of the original films.

There's also a major difference in pacing and the conceptualization of the films. The first JJ film was a roller-coaster. The original Trek films were not. They built more towards a major conclusion, but would have some slower moments. That's one of the key differences. In addition, old Trek dealt with big ideas in sci-fi. New Trek....does not.

That said, I think there's a real difference between STII/III and every other film. STI and STV had interesting concepts for an episode, but felt...kind of pointless otherwise. STIV was similar. Fun, entertaining, but not really...I dunno...matching up to what STII/III gave us. STVI was a return to form, though.

And the Next Generation films were all over the map. Only one felt "large scale" enough to me, and that was First Contact. except, as fun as that was, it also was hampered by some weakness (yet another time travel story, etc., etc.). The others felt pretty disjointed, and Insurrection and Nemesis were just garbage.


I honestly think that, with the exception of STII/III, Trek is better dealt with on television. You can explore more ideas, build the characters more naturally, the rhythms of TV fit the notion of what "Trek" is better, etc. STII/III I think were better because they DIDN'T have a young crew, and instead dealt with an old crew dealing with the fact that they were old, and being thrust into the midst of some interesting "naval" combat. STVI had cool large-scale political themes, plus more "naval" combat.

The new films feel very, very different. They're ZOMGSAVETEHWORLD films, that literally never stop moving. They're far far more kinetic, both in terms of the visuals and in terms of the pacing of the plot points. They're roller coaster rides, and Trek has, up until them, never been about that.


From my perspective, this is ok. It'd be nice if Trek could remain a high-quality version of what I like about it, but I accept that time marches on, and my tastes are not going to be catered to by filmmakers most of the time. Plus, I've still got the old stuff, which I love.

For the new stuff, all I'm looking for is a well done cotton-candy thrill ride. That's it. A day at the visual amusement park, well executed. If the films can give me that, I'm happy. It's NOT "your Daddy's Trek." And that's ok. It doesn't need to be. It's not "Trek," either, but that's ok, too.
 
If you choose to rewatch TOS, you may start to recall the times they took a few moments for thoughtfulness and meaning.
The Wisdom of Star Trek - YouTube

I guess in the future people have more deep, thoughtful and meaningful conversations.
From my POV I ask "Who talks like that?" If I started quoting classic literature to any of my military buddies it would be cut short with "F@G!!".
If, after a mission, our commander gave us a speech that didn't have at least 20% obscenities, 1% Monty Python, and 50% sarcasm and 29% cynicism, we would be wondering if we were in trouble.
 
Very popular but again as now, I was out of sync with many fans. Though my friends hated it pretty much too. Birds of a feather.
For me it played out like a bad sit-com, and I felt let down.
It's not at all what made me a Trek fan. Some say it was a similar to Trouble with Tribbles to be light hearted for a shift in gears from all the life and death stuff of II and III.
But it still didn't work for me. The premise was too silly, I thought they made fools of too many of the characters for laughs, and rather then a shift in gears it was grinding them. "save the whales" doesn't fit into something that is supposed to be about a trek to the stars in my view. Maybe if they were space whales.

Spock was back, get on with the next five year mission so to speak.
Didn't happen.


It really seems to me that you have the narrowest possible vision for what Star Trek "should" be. I'm not saying that to knock you or your opinion, you're certainly more than entitled to it. But you've listed a multitude of things which makes it seem like anything other than TOS wasn't Trek "proper."
 
For the new stuff, all I'm looking for is a well done cotton-candy thrill ride. That's it. A day at the visual amusement park, well executed. If the films can give me that, I'm happy. It's NOT "your Daddy's Trek." And that's ok. It doesn't need to be. It's not "Trek," either, but that's ok, too.

With that said... would you say that JJ could have made a better TV version than movies?
How much better could he have done if he actually put the time in to watch the source material as well?

I don't know that a new series would be better. Any more I don't have the time or energy to commit to a TV show. BSG wore me out. Caprica pretty much shut me down. Walking Dead was hopeful but I think it's tired. Most series, by season two or three, should cut the cord. Running a show for 7 seasons is ridiculous. I force fed myself through Rescue Me and Sopranos. I want to watch Defiance... I got through the pilot after about 3 attempts. It's not horrible, but I also don't want to get emotionally attached to a show just to have it get cancelled.

I guess I'm getting off track though. Movies these days, in order to appeal to the masses, have to have a pretty steady pace. JJ Trek delivers on that. Could STID have been better? Sure. Any movie could probably be better after watching it enough times and tearing it apart. I think they pull it off well enough to keep me interested though.
 
So, people who talk about how Kirk was a bookworm according to this one passage in an episode on TOS, end up being pissed that he's reduced to this skirt-chasing daredevil, which he definitely wasn't in TOS or any of the original films.

Yes but the TOS Kirk was raised by a loving father who lived to see him become the man he was. But in the new Trek, the opposite is true, so of course his character would be different. This is why i never understood when people say this isn't Trek because the characters are different...well, yea of course they're different. When Nero restarted the timeline in the first jj film, That event changed these characters fundamentally. That was kind of the point. And I always thought that was brilliant.
 
Yes but the TOS Kirk was raised by a loving father who lived to see him become the man he was. But in the new Trek, the opposite is true, so of course his character would be different. This is why i never understood when people say this isn't Trek because the characters are different...well, yea of course they're different. When Nero restarted the timeline in the first jj film, That event changed these characters fundamentally. That was kind of the point. And I always thought that was brilliant.

Then it sounds like you DO understand why they say what they say, you just didn't have the same experience as them with it.

Reboot = "Not Trek," for a lot of people. Likewise, there's the other stuff i mentioned. Pacing, ideas addressed, etc.
 
If people don't see how the new Trek is different to the old Trek they're either blind or haven't seen one of them. There are of course loads of differences.

Now, is that a bad thing? For some classic Trek fans yes, but from a marketing and critical point of view no. Clearly the route that JJ has taken does have wide appeal and has been received well by non-Trek fans, Trek fans, and critics.

As for "people don't talk like that" well, some actually do and there are documented examples of it all through history. To be completely honest? I've never heard so much obscenity in casual talk as when I'm visiting the States so maybe that has something to do with the perception. :lol

Even still, Lord of the Rings would have been a very different franchise if they talked like "real" people. It's a stylistic choice that adds gravity to the characters to make them intellectuals which in the series they were.

I guess what I don't get is that both sides have perfectly valid points that lead to their perception of JJ Trek but neither seems to think it's okay for the other side to think the way they do.
 
It really seems to me that you have the narrowest possible vision for what Star Trek "should" be. I'm not saying that to knock you or your opinion, you're certainly more than entitled to it. But you've listed a multitude of things which makes it seem like anything other than TOS wasn't Trek "proper."

It is supposed to be about a trek though the stars afterall.

Another great moment in First Contact.. ".. and your astronauts on some kind of star trek?"
Awesome.
 
I guess in the future people have more deep, thoughtful and meaningful conversations.
From my POV I ask "Who talks like that?" If I started quoting classic literature to any of my military buddies it would be cut short with "F@G!!".
If, after a mission, our commander gave us a speech that didn't have at least 20% obscenities, 1% Monty Python, and 50% sarcasm and 29% cynicism, we would be wondering if we were in trouble.

This is Roddenberry's more evolved humanity as well, not us knuckle draggers today. And plus it was televised fiction and moments like that are meant to convey the thoughts the writers are trying to get across. Read some of what Cousteau wrote or some of the ISS astronauts. Imagine some of the conversation such people have when they have time to contemplate their purposes in doing these things. Read astronaut Story Musgraves thoughts.
He surely would have had meaningful conversations with other astros on the nature of their work.


I'm not saying all the time. Just sometimes take the moment. Make it matter more.
 
I think I should just reference how I felt about Trek '09. I liked the movie for what it is, a fun movie with a lot of action, but it is not MY Star Trek. You could have told the same exact story without any references to Star Trek or the names of the characters and it would not have made a bit of difference. People would still go to see it because they have been told it is the next great blockbuster of the summer, not because it is the next Star Trek movie.


Ok, I don't understand this criticism. I mean, I understand literally what the words mean, but I don't think this kind of criticism is really that meaningful.

The story of The Dark Knight could have been told without Batman (deranged villain terrorizes city, tough talking DA becomes corrupt, our hero saves the day). It could have been any other superhero, heck, it could have been any other vigilante. X-Men could have been told with any other group of superheros. X-Men might as well have been the Avengers.

This criticism is predicated on the idea that there is an inherently Trek way of storytelling, and I don't think this is true, especially if you're looking at only the Trek movies. Allegory is not unique to Star Trek. Having a deeper humanitarian/philosophical message is not unique to Star Trek.

What makes Star Trek unique is the motifs. I mean, look, what did Gene pitch Trek as? Wagon Train to the stars! They were applying the motifs of space and science fiction to that narrative television format. The same thing goes for Star Wars. Star Wars isn't a unique story, it's a redressed "hero's journey" a story so generic and commonplace, we coined the term "hero's journey" to describe it. What makes Star Wars unique is the motif, the world that Lucas and co. created.

You take the character names and motifs away from ANY film and it doesn't make a difference. There's a protagonist and an antagonist, basically.

Perhaps this is a good discussion point for those who felt that STID was a good movie but "not a good Trek movie."

Is there a consensus on what storytelling elements make Trek uniquely Trek? I certainly can't think of any wholly unique common threads between TMP-IV other than the cast and the universe its set in.
 
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