The DEFINITIVE VADER Q&A session - time to ARCHIVE?

[Oohyeah KL]

Time to stick it in the Archives before/in case it unwittingly falls off into oblivion?

All Vader fans out there - we have an invaluable resource on the board - Darth Jones, ex-ILM.. He's already shed a lot of light on the chestbox.

If you have any questions on any other part of the Vader, shoot a question and see if he knows the answer.

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Actually, calling DarthJones.

This is the original thread where the discussion originated from:
http://rpf.prop-planet.com/viewtopic.php?topic=9771&forum=1
Thought I'd start a thread specifically on the writing.
Some of you might remember the great discussion we had a number of months ago about the meaning of the writing, etc.
(btw, if anyone happened to have saved it, please tell me..)
DarthJones seems to know a huge amount on the different Vader versions, so hopefully, Dr. Jones, you can finally lay to rest which is the authentic version.

Anyway, as requested, here are all the pics I have of the different versions of the writing:

1) MOM version #1:

[attachmentid=1170]

This is what the article about the Hebrew writing was based upon. Supposedly it says, "Ein MaaSaV/NimChaLim/Aad SheZaCha" and which is meant to mean "His deeds will not be forgiven, until he merits", though Kertratz and his Hebrew teacher says that the Hebrew writing is gibberish and does not say that.

THis also appears on this official-looking LFL archive pic, which I don't know where it's from.
I think it might well be the same box.

[attachmentid=1171]

2) MOM version #2

[attachmentid=1172]

I have this pic on my hard drive also labelled as MOM. But this obviously does not look anything like the MOM version further above.
Are there different MOM versions???

btw, sorry for the puny size. Does anyone have a closeup of this and/or confirm/deny whether this was from MOM?


3) Sp. Edition cardboard standee version

[attachmentid=1173]

Note: As you can probably see, and as told by Chris Tevas, this pic was heavily photoshopped. You can see that the writing and coin slots were copy and pasted from one slot onto the other two slots.
THat one line of writing seems to look like the first line of the MOM #1 writing though. AGain, might be the same box even.


4) Planet Hollywood version:

[attachmentid=1174]


(Courtesy of PHArchivist - thanks again.)
Seems nothing like the others.

Do I remember someone saying that it's also Hebrew writing, but also gibberish?


5) Visual Dictionary version:

[attachmentid=1175]

This is the same writing seen on the Rubies version, GT version, and my metal Vader.
Some say the third line says "LFL1995"?

6) SW Technical Journal version:

[attachmentid=1176]

Looks pretty unauthentic. Could this also be Hebrew?? Well, what say you, Dr. Jones? (btw, darn, have to go to bed now. DarthJones, I'm in HK, and we're GMT +8.

 

[yodakiller1138]

The MOM#2 is actually A New Hope version.

 

[cking]

Hi KL,

Yep, the photo that you have as MOM#2 is actually an ANH chest box that was displayed at the Art of Star Wars exhibition here in the U.K.

Chris.

 

[darthjones]

Hey! Hi everybody. I worked late last night and am only now out of bed. Sucks. Day is half over. Anyway, that is an awful lot of Hebrew! I must say that while it might be fun to figure out what some of the writing meant, NO ONE at LFL put any thought into it.

Nice picture collection.

The top one seems to be a DEAD ON Jedi box. The top and bottom bars of writing are the same as in the movie but the middle one looks a little different. Could be a cannibalized ESB box. The middle lettering looks like ESB. The top and bottom writing here are the same as in the "pull my finger" photo from the Death Star docking bay in Jedi. Note also that the buttons are a little closer together than many reproductions and that the coin slots still have that little flat base beneath them like it ANH. Lastly, the tiny brass buttons at the bottom of the rods are both higher on the left. This was the case in the movies but new ones at LFL and reproductions have made it so that they are both higher on the outside of the rods.

Next photo down IS the same box. Writing a little clearer. Note that bottom of rods does not extend below rocker bar block like on GT and rubie's. Rods are a tiny bit shorter. Tiny bit. And the aluminum buttons, the tiny in between ones, are movie accurate here.

What does MOM mean by the way?

Third one down obviously ANH but with tiny letters added above the rocker bars and in between the coin slots. Not movie accurate to anything but I can't see much of the writing.

Fourth picture down is just wacked. The writing looks pretty cool though. Not movie accurate overall but the same font and some of the same letters.

Fifth picture down is Las Vegas, right? The helmet with two silver cheeks as I recall. Anyway, a goofy box but to tell you the truth, I like the evil looking silver buttons on top of the rods. Kinda cool. The writing again is somewhat off but same font. And the Jedi box always did start with a "W" in the top left.

Ahhh, the Visual Dictionary version. Well, it becomes more official once it is posted as such but looks to be box made after all of the films. The rods here are not even aluminum but plastic. The lettering looks much like an echo of the lettering "used" on versions I worked on while at LFL. It echoes the names of those who made the particular suit. For instance, Don Bies worked on these and the middle bar of writing says essentially "BIES AD." Maybe his middle name starts with an "A." The bottom one has "LFL" and so forth. Ya think I'm pushing it? - There was one box up there that actually said Don Bies, Amy (I forgot the last name), and someone else. It was on display at the Los Angeles County Museum of Art for a short while. The teensie weensie buttons are all movie accurate (the tiny one on the left looks screwed up though). And the coin slot bases were removed on these because they were only going by photos even though the real thing was only a block away.

The Technical Journal one is totally misleading by the way. The writing is not accurate to anything.

Most of this I have left here is in reference to the Jedi box. The ESB box, as hinted at above, had slightly different writing. There is a black and white production still from ESB with Vader at the Bespin dinner table and Fett behind him in which you can see the writing. I'll look for the photo here but it may have gotten thrown out!

Hong Kong. Wow. Kinda far away. I love technology. I may leave more later if I can think of anything but must pretend now to go "earn" money.

 

[Durasteel Corporation]

Yes but the fact that Vaders chest box resembles size, shape, colours, and number of pieces (ie, jewels representing the tribes of Israel) of the ancient Jewish chest pouches used by High Priests is a bit too much of a so-called coinkydink to really be one imho. Vader, as Tarkin said was the "last" of his kind, the truly high priest of the jedi/force. hmmm.
And the whole messianic nature of star wars/vaders story is yet another fact, even if an anxillary one.

I think its safe to say that there was at least an attempt to make some kind of visual connection to Judaism, Messianism, and Chrisitanity.

Durasteel

 

[darthjones]

Yes, a lot of what we see in Star Wars echoes a lot of this and Vader's chest box is very evocative of the one described in the Bible or whatever that they reproduced for Belloq in Raiders. However, the mere fact that the letters and words change so much is also indicative of the fact that, after a point of impression, the rules are somewhat flexible. I doubt that the words Don Bies or LFL have much to do with it all.

I can guarantee you that, while the box probably deliberately echoes religious emblematics, Hebrew was chosen because it looks "other," not because it was Hebrew.

 

[PHArchivist]

DarthJones--Awesome info! Yes--PH LV...! The PH in Beverly Hills also had a suit a few years back, but my pics of it are less clear.

What do you suppose that switch on the right side of the PHLV box is (our left)?

 

[kertratz]

I cant handle this thread again! Once is enough...

I didnt read through this whole thread so I dont know if anyone corrected oohyea yet but I did not at all say it was gibberish... In fact I confirmed part of the translation while making the other part more accurate...and I also made a pic with all the hebrew writing both the reglar way and with the middle line upside down.

 

[Oohyeah KL]

I never knew the ANH chestbox ever had writing on it!!
That's why I assumed it was just a weirdly painted ESB/ROTJ box when I saw the writing. THanks YK and cking for pointing that out!
btw, Chris, you mean those pics are not MOM at all then? Better relabel my pics!
Does anyone have more pics of that Vader?

DJ - As hoped, that's absolutely awesome info!! THanks so much! MOM is "Magic of the Myth", which goes on tour in the US, I believe. Anyone knows where MOM is now?

BTW, if you could get hold of a pic of the ESB box that'd be great!

Kertratz - there you are!

This thread is actually not about meaning of the writing, but rather, to try to determine which version of the writing should be regarded as the "authentic" version.
Now we finally have an answer, thanks to DJ!
Sorry if I misinterpreted your previous advice. So are you saying that the MOM pic writing is not gibberish? If so, what does it say?
Damn, if only someone had saved the previous thread.

 

[PHArchivist]

More Vader Chest Boxes...

PH Beverly Hills (No longer open)

 

[darthjones]

Several cool points here. Let me see if I can remember it all. Yes, I was only addressing what was the most consistent film version of Hebrew on the boxes. I have no idea what it means. I think the top line reads "supersize that" in English but "supersize this" in Dutch.

Okay, comedy over (applause). First of all, the switch on the Las Vegas Planet Hollywood is just a switch. Just something they put on to turn on the lights but they didn't bother to hide it. No big deal. There are some belt boxes like that too.

I will look for my ESB picture. Has almost the same lettering as Jedi.

Lastly, the Planet Hollywood costume from Beverly Hills was on loan. It was the second and lesser of two costumes owned by Steve Sansweet. He sold that costume to a guy who lent it to the restaurant. It used to have all kinds of goofy writing on it but Steve sent it up to Don Bies who cleaned it up to be a little more movie accurate.

One good thing to note on it is that the buttons are once again a little closer together than people ususally make them.

As far as the ANH box goes, there was never writing on it but, for appearances and so forth, they stuck a couple of words on it here and there.

Shoot, if you think this is bad, the belt boxes keep changing size and depth all the time! But you all know that.

 

[darthjones]

Notice also on the Beverly Hills picture that they took off the bases on the coin slots. Oops.

 

[Oohyeah KL]

DJ - Any luck with the ESB photo?

</SPAN><TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD CLASS=$row_color>darthjones wrote:<HR></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS=$row_color>Shoot, if you think this is bad, the belt boxes keep changing size and depth all the time! But you all know that.</TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE><SPAN CLASS=$row_color>

er... tell us anyway...

I'm a Vader nut so whatever interesting stories you have, please share!!!

OK, first question - is the codpiece's oval bit in the center indented inside or at the same level as the outer surface.
If indented, by how much? I've seen photos of both kinds, though the movie ones seem hardly indented at all.
This question has been bugging me for ages!

 

[Durasteel Corporation]

Ok maybe I missed this conclusive point, but where and how was it decided that the Hebrew was suddenly...not Hebrew?
Alternitively, how was it arrived upon that it was Hebrew to begin with??? Chest beating aside, as far as I can tell, Im the only person who has noted the similarities to the Jewish High Priest chest pouches (actually while working on a grad thesis about three years ago) but I was certainly NOT the one to point out the fact that it was or was not Hebrew written on it. The fact that two unrelated 'camps' seem to have noticed a strong Judaic connection on the chest box makes it hard to dismiss as a mere coinkydink or impressionistic.

Now Im sure that ~some~ of those boxes have jibberish on them. Yet I continue to wonder how it was that it was thought to have been Hebrew in the first place..with such a poignant phrase (on sin and redemption) to boot!

Not trying to be the party pooper gang, just not quite decided yet.

Cheers,
D

 

[Oohyeah KL]

Sorry if it was me who caused the confusion, but the conclusion is NOT that the writing isn't Hebrew.
Rather, it IS Hebrew characters that are used, but it is just seemingly random scatterings of the characters, therefore producing "jibberish". ie., just like "nblc;afsd" is English jibberish.

From Kertratz's post, it seems that at least not all of it is jibberish, and some actually make sense. Some believe it even means "His deeds shall not be forgiven until he merits", remember?

 

[lonepigeon]

I have a question!
What are those chest box rods? They were obviously real parts cut down and appear again in full on the Skiff Guard Vibro-Ax.

Are there any other props/costumes that you know as well as Vader? Subjects for another thread(s) of course- I don't want to hijack here.

 

[PHArchivist]

I am going to take down the pics I posted that are stretching the thread. I will likely re-post them, but may not be tonight...

 

[PHArchivist]

DarthJones, again, very cool info on the PHBH suit...

Any more history on the PHLV suit you are aware of? In my archives, I have pics of Vader chest armor and helmet from PHSF, and a Vader helmet at the PH WDC. Any juicy tidbits on these pieces?

 

[Flix4Me]

The DV figure that I have been making off-and-on is to be an ESB version. What size belt boxes shall I use? Metal or plastic? Opinions anyone?

 

[Durasteel Corporation]

Ive always thought the rods were created using musical instrument pieces. C3P0s arm pieces look rather similar in this context.


my two rods.
D