joberg
Legendary Member
Literally a "Film Noir"
The Batman
- Thread starter Vivek
- Start date
joberg
Legendary Member
Again the old adage: it's not because you can do it that you have to do it
Bloop
Sr Member
I saw it last week, still thinking about what to think of it.
BTW, as far as "spoilers" are concerned, I think it's more than fine to post them here. Once a movie (or TV show) is out, I've come to accept spoilers will be everywhere. All the movie blogs spoil stuff as soon as it comes out, so if you want to avoid spoilers, you pretty much have to stay offline.
Anyway, I think the movie was good, maybe not great though. It felt too long for my tastes. Actually, it's not necessarily too long, it just needed better pacing. And while I understand it was trying to do more of a detective story than an action movie, Batman is still a "superhero" who dresses in a weird costume and fights bad guys. If he's going to do more detective work, it makes less sense for him to be in the bat-suit for so much of the movie. Adding some more action in key spots would have helped it for me.
The story paid off, so that tilted the balance for me, even if it could've been tighter paced. A good commentary on vigilantism and the point of view of who is perceived as a hero or a villain. Other Batman films have touched on it, but this one had maybe the most direct connection between the two. I was surprised by the twist, which I thought was well done.
BTW, as far as "spoilers" are concerned, I think it's more than fine to post them here. Once a movie (or TV show) is out, I've come to accept spoilers will be everywhere. All the movie blogs spoil stuff as soon as it comes out, so if you want to avoid spoilers, you pretty much have to stay offline.
Anyway, I think the movie was good, maybe not great though. It felt too long for my tastes. Actually, it's not necessarily too long, it just needed better pacing. And while I understand it was trying to do more of a detective story than an action movie, Batman is still a "superhero" who dresses in a weird costume and fights bad guys. If he's going to do more detective work, it makes less sense for him to be in the bat-suit for so much of the movie. Adding some more action in key spots would have helped it for me.
The story paid off, so that tilted the balance for me, even if it could've been tighter paced. A good commentary on vigilantism and the point of view of who is perceived as a hero or a villain. Other Batman films have touched on it, but this one had maybe the most direct connection between the two. I was surprised by the twist, which I thought was well done.
I absolutely think so, from when I saw it in the theater. Lots of folks were saying it was just adrenaline, but, & I'm no medical expert, I thought that had to be injected into the heart.
I believe the fact it was green, & he went into an uncontrollable rage, hinted that it was at least a proto version of Venom, if nothing else.
--I was under the impression he didnt know at all. He knew her as Maria Kyle's girl who used to hang around the club, so he kept an eye on her, but didn't know he was her father until she revealed it.
--As far as bringing Falcone "out into the light," I think you have to take into mind that the Riddler has a greater plan in mind. He doesn't want to just kill his targets-- he wants it to be symbolic as well. His plan was always to kill falcone from his apartment window so he could be captured, meet batman (because he thought batman was a kindred spirit), and reveal his larger plans, which might not have happened if he killed falcone at the funeral. I would also guess that Falcone was also under heavy protection and the riddler didnt have a lot of chances to get at him-- having cops arrest him and take him out of the club without his usual body guards around him would have a better chance of succeeding
--I agree the dialogue about the carpet tool was pretty stilted. One interesting point though someone else online pointed out that feeds into the overall development of Bruce's character, is that Bruce's failings in this movie come from the isolation his privilege has given him. He sees the carpet tool and thinks its just a hammer of some type because he has no experience w/ a blue collar job. His knows spanish, but his lack of interpersonal relationships means he misses a mistake that would be pretty obvious to someone that actually spoke the language regularly.
HeartBlade
Sr Member
I dont know about the very latest comics but recent Batman is still the amazing detective and peak physical human. I think comics also began to explore his “training period” (so pre-year 1) but he is still the genius billionaire vigilante he has been.
There has been this desire to make Thomas and Martha Wayne “evil” or at least “corrupt” in modern Batman media.
Im not sure exactly where it started, (Court of Owls or the Telltale series) but people responded positively too it so its becoming a major thing. The recent “Joker” movie also had Thomas Wayne not be a saint and possibly corrupt.
In universe, it makes some sense. Gotham is ruled by criminal organizations and mobsters so to build wealth and maintain it in that city, you need connections with the mob. Could also explain why the Waynes didnt get out of Gotham.
In terms of meta, there is a very strong anti-rich and anti-1% sentiment nowadays in the US so it could be exploring/exploiting that to sell comics.
I'm not totally keen on the Wayne family legacy being shrouded in controversy or being morally compromised. I think it worked to an extent in this film, but there is a part of me that does think it could undermine Bruce's sole motivation. The entire reason he's devoted his life to fighting crime is because his parents were murdered in cold blood and the people who should have protected him or found the culprits were equally corrupt. So he took the law into his own hands.
I know they did this in Joker too but if every single character in the Batman stories has dirt on them, whether hero or villain, then it does tend to set a gloomy outlook for the story. There has to be some shred of hope otherwise why wouldn't everyone cave to apathy? Though they did do a good job of establishing that Bruce in this movie recognizes that he can't focus entirely on his own pain, but that he needs to do better than his parents and the officials. So while I do have some issues with the Wayne's being corrupt, it also works in this context too.
I just watched the deleted scene in question. It was better than I expected considering my initial reaction when I saw the movie, but I'm glad it was cut. They really need to venture elsewhere in the rogue's gallery. Let that one rest for a bit so that when he does show up again it feels worth the wait. This movie impressed me with it's restraint so it's clear Reeves is capable. I just hope the studios don't pressure him to make creative choices that compromise the sequels and that he himself can maintain a level of control over the scope of the story. Far too often anymore I wonder if the few directors who have made past films and continue on in a given franchise either go nuts so they can get out of making more, or they do it because they just can't contain themselves and try to rush to the finish line, compromising the end product.
I know they did this in Joker too but if every single character in the Batman stories has dirt on them, whether hero or villain, then it does tend to set a gloomy outlook for the story. There has to be some shred of hope otherwise why wouldn't everyone cave to apathy? Though they did do a good job of establishing that Bruce in this movie recognizes that he can't focus entirely on his own pain, but that he needs to do better than his parents and the officials. So while I do have some issues with the Wayne's being corrupt, it also works in this context too.
I just watched the deleted scene in question. It was better than I expected considering my initial reaction when I saw the movie, but I'm glad it was cut. They really need to venture elsewhere in the rogue's gallery. Let that one rest for a bit so that when he does show up again it feels worth the wait. This movie impressed me with it's restraint so it's clear Reeves is capable. I just hope the studios don't pressure him to make creative choices that compromise the sequels and that he himself can maintain a level of control over the scope of the story. Far too often anymore I wonder if the few directors who have made past films and continue on in a given franchise either go nuts so they can get out of making more, or they do it because they just can't contain themselves and try to rush to the finish line, compromising the end product.
HeartBlade
Sr Member
HMSwolfe
Master Member
I think a lot of people are taking Falcone’s word a little too much to heart. I mean, the Renewal Fund wasn’t intended to be a system for money-laundering, Thomas Wayne wasn’t some corrupt billionaire, and Martha Wayne was simply, like Bruce, once a troubled orphan that needed some help. None of that is quite as dark and grim as people are making it out to be. It’s not the squeaky clean picture-perfect family Bruce thought of before, but that doesn’t make the Waynes corrupt. I can’t speak for the Arkhams, that side (minus Martha) does sound a little iffy, but I feel like all of this was addressed in the movie. In fact, it was a big part of it.
HeartBlade
Sr Member
A little off topic but has there ever been a story or one shot of how Bruce Wayne would have turned out and his parents never died? Like they never ran into Joe Chill or Joe just left after taking some money?
We have the traditional his parents died but not Bruce
Bruce died but his parents didnt (and they become Batman and Joker)
Bruce died but the Waynes adopt Kal-El (who landed in Gotham)
Bruce wouldnt have the drive for vengeance but I doubt he would grow up to be like a Kardashian or some celebrity. The guy is a genius and could use that intellect in politics, law, medicine, business, etc to eventually become a lawyer, President, philanthropist, etc. Billionaire Bruce Wayne could have a bigger positive impact than Batman which would be an interesting outcome.
We have the traditional his parents died but not Bruce
Bruce died but his parents didnt (and they become Batman and Joker)
Bruce died but the Waynes adopt Kal-El (who landed in Gotham)
Bruce wouldnt have the drive for vengeance but I doubt he would grow up to be like a Kardashian or some celebrity. The guy is a genius and could use that intellect in politics, law, medicine, business, etc to eventually become a lawyer, President, philanthropist, etc. Billionaire Bruce Wayne could have a bigger positive impact than Batman which would be an interesting outcome.
Unless Falcone was lying, Wayne did send a gangster to shut up a journalist. He didn't want him killed, but that's still terribly corrupt behavior.
HMSwolfe
Master Member
I mean, yeah, but I think it’s somewhat a matter of perspective. Riddler paints our “Hush” money journalist as a noble crusader looking for truth, but he could have been an invasive tabloid kind of guy. And, again, not defending Thomas’ choice to ask Falcone, but he could have been at the end of his rope, so to speak. Exhausted every other avenue to him. Probably a little sheltered by his wealth, especially if he didn’t think Falcone would resort to murder. I’m just saying, people act like this movie’s slinging a lot of mud at the Waynes when I just don’t see it in quite as black and white.
joberg
Legendary Member
And it's probably why Bruce feels that he has to redeem himself for that darkness?
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