Stormtrooper Armor Lineage Chart

[rigormortis]

I remember an old thread here that had to do with Vader helm lineage and someone did an awesome chart. It's bugged me for a while that there was never a Stormtrooper armor lineage chart (but there is an excellent helmet lineage chart thanks to Bingo's awesome site: http://web.ukonline.co.uk/bingo275/stormfamilytree.htm ), so I'm willing to put one together if folks in the know are willing to help fill in the blanks without 1) revealing the armorer's private details other than suit nomenclature (i.e. GT/AFX) or 2) getting into a flame war over it. Basically, I want to do a simple timeline with armor name, date first produced, # of revisions, perhaps a little detail, and perhaps pics of improved areas and accuracy.

Suits I have names for are:
Andrew Ainsworth/Shepperton Designs Studio (1976-2004?) + revisions. ABS
Elstree suits?
Galaxy Trading (GT)/Armor FX (AFX). ABS
Movie FX - Germany. ABS
Marco
GF/Follano Type 1 and Type 2 (2001? copied from screen-used ROTJ suit and ANH helm) + revisions
TrooperExpert (TE) (2002?) + subsequent revisions
AuthenticProps or AP (2005?)
Canadian RT-Mod (2005?)
TE2 (the new guy who just bought the TE molds) (2006?)
Meatsock (helmet only?)
Anon
Oakley
Gino/CRProps (made from the same HDPE ANH helm)
Don Post (may have been cut apart to make armor molds)

If you know of any others or would like to contribute to this RPF community project, either PM me or add to the thread without revealing any personal info about the armorers.

I just think it'd be an interesting lineage guide and show armor progress through the years and what armor it was based on. And this chart will be released here for free.

 

[rigormortis]

Progress thus far (revised):

AA/SDS v1 (Screen used)
2nd Gen - Gino/CRProps & TE v1 (ROTJ suit and ANH helm) & TE v2 & AA/SDS v2
3rd Gen - GF v2/AP/ABS80

My understanding is that most accurate, cast off originals were based off Gino and TE's work (which was based on AA's original work and a ROTJ suit?). Need to uncover fact if AA v2 uses TE parts as rumored or if he simply cleaned up/repaired the original molds.

Fan made (no connections yet, although the GF v1 is rumored to be patterned after Marco's original)
Marco
Studio Creations
GF v1/FX/GT
MovieFX (my understanding is that it's a TE v1 ANH helm)
RT-Mod v1 (2003 fanmade w/DP Deluxe Helm) to current v2 w/ANH helm, claimed TE face)


If anyone cares to help clarify the research without starting a flamewar, the chart does have some gaps and facts that need filled.

 

[PMTrooper]

my mfx bucket looks more like a GF than a TE
ok i´m no expert

and where should the troopermaster find his place in this list?

 

[rigormortis]

I haven't heard of TrooperMaster armor out there, but if someone can validate it as mass-produced armor, I'll gladly add it to the list.

I also neglected to add Studio Creations to the Fan Made (original) section. It's been rectified.

You are correct. It is my understanding that originally the MFX was GF v1 based, but it's since been upgraded to a TE derivative, so there are more versions of MFX that I need to add to the list.

Thanks for pointing that out and I'll research the TM suits.

 

[SethB6025]

TM's suits are all original sculpts. As far as RT Mod helmet goes, the first was a modified Don Post Deluxe, later on the faceplate was replaced with a copy of a TE or possibly GF. I think the current cap/back is a modified version of the DPD. The armor is an original sculpt.

 

[dirtydave]

I believe Anon is TE?

 

[GINO]

Not enough energy to compose an entire family tree, so I'll give you the short version.

- Film used pieces
- Me
- Everyone else (you guys sort out the mess)

No one has molds (ANH/ROTJhelmet & ROTJ armor) that are closer in lineage to the film used items they were taken from than I do. The molds I have touched the insides of the real items. NO ONE ELSE can say that. Just wanted to clarify.

 

[rigormortis]

Thanks for the clarification, Gino and no offense meant at all. Honestly, I'm not trying to reopen old wounds or restart old arguements - I just thought it'd be cool to have a lineage chart.

Per your statement (which I have no reason to doubt as truth), that puts you parallel with TE (who claimed access to original suit parts) under AA/SDS (original ANH/ESB) vs under TE in the chart.

The problem with researching matters like this is there is so much uninformed opinion and very little fact. Hopefully I'll be able to sort out the background of the GF/AP/ABS80, which I still have under TE lineage in my tree. It may well be that they did the same thing as you, but I seem to recall them getting permission from TE to produce armor, but I could be very mistaken.

Bear with me and I think we'll have something that most people can agree with, and it will be a free chart.

 

[GINO]

No offense at all.

The molds taken from the original items were sold by TE and in my possession for like 6 years now. EVERYTHING else is either an "authorized" or "unauthorized" recast.

So no, no one has molds with closer lineage than what I have here with me right now. Untouched and unaltered.
Mold duplicates were made for the ANH style armor which is what people have gotten from me in the past. No one at this point in time, has received any items that came directly off the original molds. No one seems to care for rotj stuff besides me.

Not to open a can of worms or anything but it is believed my most trooper experts that the SDS helmet is not from unaltered original molds, and the SDS armor is a recast off GF/TE. So by that notion, I wouldn't put them anywhere near the top in terms of closest to having molds that are able to produce film accurate parts.

 

[rigormortis]

Agreed. I meant AA/SDS as the original 1976 armor maker, not their current v2 commercial and possibly canibalized TE/GF v2 version.

I'll ensure the chart accurately reflects what you have said.

 

[exoray]

<div class='quotetop'></div>

AA/SDS v1 (Screen used)
2nd Gen - Gino/CRProps & TE v1 (ROTJ suit and ANH helm) & TE v2 & AA/SDS v2
3rd Gen - GF v2/AP/ABS80

My understanding is that most accurate, cast off originals were based off Gino and TE's work[/b]

A good start...

But, are you going by facts, common belief or ? You will find many different stories in regards to some of the items, it all depends on what camp you talk to...

<div class='quotetop'></div>

(which was based on AA's original work and a ROTJ suit?).[/b]

That would be an ugly can of worms to open, I don't believe you will find any proof of what exactly AA did except for maybe the common belief/fact that he vaccum formed parts as this is one of the only things LFL and AA claim in common... So was it his work, to what extent?

IMO to be totally honest, I wouldn't call any screen used stuff "AA/SDS v1" but rather just LFL production items made in part by AA/SDS...

<div class='quotetop'></div>

Need to uncover fact if AA v2 uses TE parts as rumored or if he simply cleaned up/repaired the original molds.[/b]

You never will, AA claims and claims and claims and LFL and others claim the opposite... That is all you are going to get, no facts or proof...

Although IMO it's clearly obvious that several of the AA armor parts are indeed recasts of TE/GF parts... But, others probably believe in another mystery source...

IMO there are NO original molds in the publics hands, "maybe" LFL has something but only they know... But. hey some people want to believe...

<div class='quotetop'></div>

but it is believed my most trooper experts that the SDS helmet is not from unaltered original molds[/b]

Well even AA himself has admited altering "the molds" for a better fit, so I would chaulk this up as fact...

<div class='quotetop'></div>

The other area is around the left hand side looking at the back of the helmet, where the tumblehome has been fettled in to align up better with the front face. This area always was a problem and annoyed me, as it caused misfitting of earpieces back in 1976.[/b]

 

[GINO]

No one else but me have molds that make 2nd gen parts.

 

[rigormortis]

Agreed. It's a good start (not at all perfect) and we all have to start somewhere.

In the end, we may not be able to prove anything if AA doesn't want to tell us the truth, so I do believe we'll have to make a best educated guess in some cases, which I really do not like to do. I'd prefer the chart to be 100% accurate and true rather than hypothesis, but again, that may never happen.

But I do think the chart is starting to flesh itself out - I'll post my working (hand-drawn) chart in the am and see how the dust settles.

And thanks once again to everyone in being objective vs. letting this get too heated with opinion. My aim is not to point fingers or accusations - it's to have the most accurate FREE lineage chart we can produce as a team.

<div class='quotetop'>(GINO @ Jun 22 2006, 12:20 AM) [snapback]1265470[/snapback]</div>

No one else but me have molds that make 2nd gen parts.
[/b]

I've accepted your claim, Gino. It is verifiable.

AA claims differently but nobody has been able to verify his claim, so I'll have to record his claim as unverified until someone comes forward.

I may agree to accept the original screen-used name as LFL Production Armor (circa 1976, produced by SDS). I really wish we knew as fact who made the first sculpt. According to Jez's site, AA is said to have sculpted the helm for pitching to 20th Century Fox, but did he also sculpt the armor? Someone else at Elstree sculpted the Vader helm in like 13 hours (for the life of me I can't remember the poor chap's name).

 

[GINO]

The chart should start out reading like this:

screen used originals: LFL (left out SDS so people don't confuse it with his current product)
2nd gen: Gino
3rd gen: TE, GF, etc....

 

[rigormortis]

Gino - So TE never mass produced any armor from the molds before you bought them from him? This is why I "assumed" and could be wrong that he also did 2nd Gen Armor (albiet ANH helm and ROTJ armor).

If this is true, I will change the chart.

 

[exoray]

<div class='quotetop'>(rigormortis @ Jun 21 2006, 07:48 PM) [snapback]1265496[/snapback]</div>

Gino - So TE never mass produced any armor from the molds before you bought them from him?
[/b]

Well if it was me I would have not made many pulls from the molds taken from the original, too high of a risk of damage and too much work to reproduce... A much better business move would be to create a production mold from the original... In essense I guess a third generation, but probably more like a 2 1/2 generation

This is the main problem I have with AA's "original" mold story... Why would anyone be so foolish as to take chances with a one of a kind mold? Is he really that foolish as to redo the one of a kind mold for a better fit? What happens when it fails? It WILL fail in time and then what? Anyone that has vacuum formed will atest to the fact that pulling a complex shape like the trooper face plate will stress the mold to no end causing it to fail, unless it's made of metal...

So as far as I'm concerned probably 90% of all production items are a generation removed from the original as to protect the original...

 

[GINO]

First you have to decide whether or not the chart is going to reflect the status of who has the ability to make what currently. That makes the most sense to me.
For example, some of the last stuff TE offered before he went into so-called retirement used some reworked GF pieces. After the 2nd gen tier, things have been modified so much that there would be like v9 versions and the like.

There were some items TE made from the molds I have now like 8 years ago, but they were made from a crude home made machine and did not capture anything close detail wise to what the molds were capable of producing. Not even worth counting.

 

[rigormortis]

Exoray - fully agree with you on the 2 1/2 gen thing. If I had access to the real mold, it's what I'd logically have done. If I didn't but had the actual prop, I would have made a mold from it (again, very bad 2nd generation with loss of detail). I have helped vac stuff of my own, like my Tusken Female (and ruined it) and know how hard it is to keep your bucks perfect - so I wouldn't risk an old valuable mold even for a test.

Gino - I guess my idea of the chart is a simplified history (therefore lineage) vs what is currently available. A lot of classic armorers like Marco went by the wayside, but it's nice to remember their pioneering work that eventually led the way to the GF v1/FX/GT suit. But the chart will reflect what is still in production and what is not - so that may agree with you.

Hopefully other armor makers will help flesh out the chart. Like I said, I'll put what I have up tomorrow. It's not perfect, but it's a good start. And with the discussions staying civil, I'm a very happy guy.

 

[GINO]

My problem with the chart as you have it now is that for anyone looking, it appears that if they received somthing from TE or SDS, it would be on par with what I have. It's a little confusing.
Truth be told, past or present, neither of those makers were ever able to produce a replica that was equal to mine. That chart kind can be misconstrued as their is/was just as good as mine which would be incorrect.

 

[hyperdyne]

Kev, this was a good idea but alas you probably knew the outcome. Noble effort turned into a muddy result.

You are gonna have to deflate the ridiculously-sized egos present before even tackling such an endeavor. :unsure