Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker (Pre-release)

[laszlo]

Missed those

This is why critics liked the film & SW fans didn't,.....SW fans know the tone

Now either LFL don't get it, or they consciously want SW to be more 'normal' & less other worldly
There were other things that brought us back to earth, Books, Horse racing, the casino, coins...(Han did toss something coin-like to the Bartender in the Cantina) parking illegally??....running out of fuel

It is not a Star Wars film.

J

You are spot on!

 

[modelcitizen]

"...then i'll see you in HELL! YAH!!"

 

[Jaitea]

"...then i'll see you in HELL! YAH!!

There is that, but normally SW sticks to the rules.....TLJ breaks them at every opportunity....because it's time to move on & destroy the tradition.....destroying what makes SW different from everything else

J

 

[modelcitizen]

i've more of a problem with matrix bullet-time than that. looks like a video game trailer that fanboys scream "thEy shOuld makE teh mOvies looK liKe tHat! +!!!!!!!!1111111! ZOMG!".

 

[Jaitea]

i've more of a problem with matrix bullet-time than that. looks like a video game trailer that fanboys scream "they should make the movies look like that! +!!!!!!!!1111111! ZOMG!".

Ha......there are tonnes of things that stood out that didn't belong......the brushing the shoulder shot was another in that scene

It was daft

I love that folks say that Rian is being criticised for daring to be different, unlike JJ who relied heavily on ANH, but this film has a Jedi master living in solitude on a planet, where the protagonist finds him looking to be trained, who is reluctant to do so,.....there is a spot on the planet which has a cave which is engulfed in the Dark Side of the Force which the protagonist must enter to find the truth about them self.....Theres a throne room where the protagonist is brought in front of the ultimate evil who recites almost exactly the same lines as in the OT....theres a battle on a white planet where there are huge mechanical walking machines that the good guys attack with speeders...

...not very original

& folks wonder why now we rate the Prequels higher than this.....at least they had creativity

J

 

[sztriki]

I think, based on that, that these same folks have taken comments by Mark Hamill (and maybe others?) and focused heavily on the more free-form approach to telling the story of these films, all basically focused around the fact that "there is no plan." I'm not sure where this idea came from, whether it was solely Mark or someone else or some mix of comments from different sources, but I rather doubt that LFL has literally zero idea of where they want the story to end up. I think they know what will happen to the Resistance and the First Order in broad strokes, and what will become of Kylo Ren and Rey in broad strokes. Beyond that, whatever plans they have may change, just as they did for George when Han was no longer dying on the Falcon in ROTJ's ending, or Lando survived, or whathaveyou, or suddenly the 9-part (12-part?) epic that would see Luke wander off as a Hermit while Leia rules the galaxy (and where they were never related to each other and the love triangle actually plays out) doesn't end up happening either.

And in the end, even if LFL knows where the story ends, it still may not end where people expect it to.

I agree with the story being malleable. Remember that Leia being a Skywalker eas thrown in at the end. But the idea that there is no overarching plot plan came from Rian Johnson IIRC, he was asked on twitter if all those mysteries set up in TFA had an amswer amd he said nope. This was further confirmed when they said JJ handed over some outlines which Rian threw out and wrote his own treatment which LFL seemed to be fine with.


QUOTE=Solo4114;4433288]
We really have zero idea of what comes next, because people cannot conceive of a Star Wars without an Empire (or ersatz Empire) or without Sith (or ersatz Sith) using red bladed lightsabres or Jedi good guys, etc., etc., etc. I think it's entirely possible to tell stories in a Star Wars universe absent these features, and which do not implicitly or explicitly reference these features. In fact, I think the franchise needs to grow beyond these confines, or it will stagnate and die the way all other iterative franchises have over time.

I can see where that doesn't sit well with some folks, though, who would prefer a more iterative approach.[/QUOTE]

It is immeasurable how much I agree with this. I was expectinf TLJ to set all these up so that Ep9 can pay off and show these changes in their full potential and establish something new. But in the end there’s an Empire with a black man weilding a red bladed lightsaber against a small band of rebels helped by a young inexperienced Jedi.

This may sound as petty, but all the other films carefully kept you inside the SW bubble,....this is what made the films unique,....much like BattleStar Galactica with it's 'Frek"
J

I know what you mean. I remember when a cringeworthy bit in AOTC (boy o boy were there a lot of those) when Owen says “This is my girlfriend, Beru”. It just didn’t sound right. Also there was one of those terrible EU novels where Lando made some hot chocolate...just doesn’t gel.

 

[MooCriket]

 

[egosheep]

I agree with the story being malleable. Remember that Leia being a Skywalker eas thrown in at the end. But the idea that there is no overarching plot plan came from Rian Johnson IIRC, he was asked on twitter if all those mysteries set up in TFA had an amswer amd he said nope. This was further confirmed when they said JJ handed over some outlines which Rian threw out and wrote his own treatment which LFL seemed to be fine with.

Rian also said that he was given no answer to Rey's origin and that all options were open. He said he wrote down a bunch of possibilities including making her a clone or a robot. Something like this pretty much proves there is no "Story Book" in KK's safe that has even broad strokes of where things are headed.

 

[MrSouthpaw]

Now either this is a conscious decision to move away from the SW lore, or RJ doesn't even know he's doing it,....which worries me more

JJ did it too.

Finn's "Droid, please." said in a "[female dog], please." manner.

 

[Psab keel]

I think the people who love TLJ keep missing the point of why a lot of fans hate the movie and subsequently have issues with the direction this new trilogy is taking.

Here's what I expected out of this new trilogy:

The original cast of characters (Han, Luke, and Leia- or some combination of the three) would be the supporting roles for a new cast of characters. They didn't need to all be killed off or changed entirely to give weight to the new story.

New protagonists who I would learn about (and perhaps even love) as I witnessed them go through an adventure together using the Hero's Journey as a template so that it would use mythic themes that made Star Wars so successful in the first place. (That part of the formula has been missing for years.) We know next to nothing about our new protagonists and their struggles feel hard to relate to because we don't see a whole lot of internal conflict within them.

I expected that this new trilogy would would have an overarching plot:

-Ep 1,2, 3 -The rise and fall of Anakin Skywalker
-Ep. 4,5, 6 -The Rise of Luke Skywalker and Darth Vader's Redemption
Ep. 7, 8, 9 -The Rise of a New Hero and ultimate triumph of good vs. evil (in some form or another)

So ultimately there HAS to be continuity between these 9 films because if they are going to deviate that much then why not just make a whole new series rather than mess with what works?

Most of all I expected that this trilogy, and all of the Saga episode films, were about several generations of the Skywalker family and would ultimately tell and conclude their story. Star Wars was a soap opera set in outer space- a space opera. The spin offs and such were intended to go off and do new things and really push the boundaries of the franchise. The saga films just had to conclude the Skywalker Saga.

I don't think the things I listed there are unreasonable expectations and in fact I think they are downright logical. When you write a book, each chapter has to somehow fit logically within the story of that book. Makes sense, no?

What pisses a lot of people off is when those responsible for making these new movies start labeling the fans who didn't like them as racist, or bigoted, or sexist, or somehow too stupid to understand what they are doing. When you have a business and your customers are unhappy with you and have valid criticisms, you don't tell them that they are wrong. You listen to them and then try and make things right. Will you make everyone happy? No, but you don't dismiss an entire populace of your fanbase by insulting them and their intelligence. There is a reason why your business is even IN business and it's because of the fans.

That's how you lose fans and ultimately if you do it enough you will likely kill off your franchise.

I mean if they had no intention of making this new trilogy about the Skywalker family, why not just have Rian Johnson make his trilogy, and the Game of Thrones guys make their series, and Jon Favreau make his TV show? Why bother messing with the saga films if all they are going to do is mess with it?

They should have just STARTED with that rather than try and make more saga films. This way they could have made new rules for what can and can't be done in a Star Wars film without having to change the rules of what made the originals work.

I honestly don't see how they really can make this work. Everyone keeps trying to recreate the magic of the first movies, but I don't think they really understand what made those movies so good in the first place.

Rather than trying to bank on nostalgia, or destroy what was so beloved by changing all the rules in the name of "subverting expectations" why not just try to tell a good story?

How about that? Is Hollywood so creatively bankrupt that the filmmakers of our day can't even accomplish that? Are there no visionaries out there anymore? Or are the studios so cowardly that they won't take a risk on any film that isn't guaranteed to be a hit?

We have all this technology and information at our fingertips. We have Facebook and Instagram and take selfies to brag about how important we are and we can have anything we want without having to wait for it because it's more important to have instant gratification rather than learn the art of patience.

It all boils down to this simple truth. With all of this stuff in our lives and the attitudes we have, we have nothing worth saying. All that noise and what does any of it mean? Nothing.

George Lucas did something remarkable when he made Star Wars. He said that "in a world of marvelous machinery, the human spirit was even more miraculous."

Do any of these filmmakers have something positive like that to say with these new Star Wars movies? Does anyone know what theme is anymore?

 

[jhazard]

The trilogy WAS wrapped up nice and neat and in a bow - that was ROTJ.

Episode VII was THE opportunity to take it somewhere beyond empire/sith/rebellion/Jedi. Instead, they rebooted, needlessly.

Episode VIII was also that opportunity. It was squandered on deconstruction and "subversion". And it continued the sith/jedi/empire/rebellion theme.

There's no questions I feel I need answers to for 9. Especially if they continue to drift from the tone of the franchise (hunor, slapstick, dialogue)

Not interested in Rey vs. Kylo, or More empire/rebellion. Luke is gone. Unless recast, Leia is gone. The droids are
Pretty much unused and not involved. Finn and Rose are Pretty unremarkable as well.

I am curious to see what happens to Falcon, and the Graflex, and R2. That's about it.





Sent from my SM-J727V using Tapatalk

 

[Psab keel]

I'm not sure if I will see 9 in the theater. I may. I'll know more as they release trailers.

I'm more interested in finishing my costumes and props than I am in seeing them continue the series. I don't know if that's bad, but with regards to working on projects I am happy in that sense.

 

[sztriki]

The trilogy WAS wrapped up nice and neat and in a bow - that was ROTJ.

Episode VII was THE opportunity to take it somewhere beyond empire/sith/rebellion/Jedi. Instead, they rebooted, needlessly.

I thought the exact same when TFA came out. I was with the movie up until the briefing on Starkiller base when they decided they need to shoot at the heat dispersal unit to blow the whole thing up. I still maintain that if that plotline was changed it would have improved the movie. But we need to keep in mind that what Star Wars fans got for over a decade was the endless rework of the Special Edition OT and the prequels. I get it that first they wanted to make a safe movie to send a message that "we got it, it's gonna be okay". So I can understand making TFA a soft-reboot even if I'm not fully happy with it. I didn't care much for Rogue One, I just generally have no real interest in these anthology movies, they're bound to be a really mixed bag, so if I pick one up I like that's cool, if not, move along.

Episode VIII was also that opportunity. It was squandered on deconstruction and "subversion". And it continued the sith/jedi/empire/rebellion theme.

This is where it ultimately falls down for me too. TLJ was supposed to be the one that goes out and does its own thing and develops things in a new direction. Which id essentially doesn't do, just sprinkles it with small contrarian things.
It's like someone has cooked a few meals from a cookbook and it's time to go and start making up recipes and food variations on his own. But instead he makes the same old chocolate cream cake, but to make it feel original puts some anchovies and oysters on top. Not original really as a new recipe and doesn't work as a dessert.

 

[Psab keel]

And tastes horrible. Plus the cook then insults you for not liking it.

 

[Keycube]

Some really good conversation going on here, IMO. It's taken a long time (for me anyway), to TRULY recover from the visceral agony of TLJ, and view the film somewhat objectively.

My new "thing" the past few years has been to go in to most movies as spoiler-free as possible; I hear a recommendation from a friend, or see a few snippets from a teaser, that draw me in to a story, and then I shut it down. No more trailers, no reviews, nothing. It has always made for more an edge-of-your-seat viewing experience that works for me.

I knew NOTHING about TLJ going in. I mean, nothing. Not a still shot, a plot rumor, nothing. So although I did need to see my boy Ben continue on his emotional roller coaster that made him such a vibrant and relatable character (to me), I honestly don't feel I was handcuffed to any "headcanon", as is the popular argument. I was truly ready to enjoy anything.

I enjoyed nothing. But that's neither here nor there; the thing that's really struck me is how I recall the film in my mind, even the scenes that I found deplorable. It almost feel like the film was constructed from a the perspective of creating an iconic scene or moment first, and then wrapping a story around all of these attractive little bullet points. It's no wonder the trailer looked good (from what I hear, anyway).

The throne room - and everything that took place in it - is a good example. There was nothing practical looking about it; it was more 50's Flash Gordon than 50's Flash Gordon. From a franchise that has prided itself on sweating the details, here was this chasm of nothingness that was supposed to present an omnipresent somethingness - especially since one of the big questions from TFA concerned Snoke and what he was all about. From the lack of gravity in the moment between him and Ben, to the so-scripted-looking-it-was-less-than-syfy-channel-quality lightsaber duel-whatever between Ben/Rey/Snoke's guards, the throne room represented everything wrong with TLJ. It was always supposed to just "look good", and indeed, that was always the best argument you got in defense of TLJ - how "beautiful" it looked.

But it was only beautiful if your only frame of reference was that of abstraction. If you were looking to dovetail it into the Star Wars universe, it never worked. None of it.

Chalk it up to either ignorance or arrogance, it doesn't matter. And in truth, this is less of a Star Wars problem than a Hollywood problem. Hollywood knows it can afford to be formulaic - and even downright mediocre - and still make its money.

Just to keep this on point, I do think IX is salvageable, but it's going to take an epic bit of misdirection from JJ to do it. If nothing else, the bar is low; so redeeming TLJ for us hardcore folks isn't really the problem, it's the redeeming of the franchise going forward, that might be a herculean task.

Some talk of how JJ caused this with reboots & mystery boxes in TFA; let's face it, TFA was going to always face some lose-lose propositions, depending on how much or how little it utilized the OT characters (and OT themes). I personally found it an excellent "introductory course" in Star Wars for a new generation, though I admit the whole SKB plotline was weak, and made the film's legacy MUCH weaker with its last 20 minutes or so.

But, this: For everything you didn't like about TFA, it produced a treasure trove of plotline options for TLJ. Literally ANYONE could have just done a mad-libs approach to TLJ's story, pulling ideas out of a hat, and produced something more compelling than what we got. TLJ owns its failure 100%; RJ/KK made a conscious decision to break completely from TFA purely for chest-puffing reasons, when they had something potentially magical served to them on their plate, all along.

 

[robn1]

...this is less of a Star Wars problem than a Hollywood problem. Hollywood knows it can afford to be formulaic - and even downright mediocre - and still make its money...

There's the problem, and it's not very new. I haven't truly enjoyed a movie since the original Jurassic Park, except for Rogue One. Same goes for TV.

 

[Treadwell]

It was a sad moment last night at Walmart when I saw a display of new Star Wars DVDs/Blu-rays and I didn't want to buy one.

 

[Solo4114]

I think the people who love TLJ keep missing the point of why a lot of fans hate the movie and subsequently have issues with the direction this new trilogy is taking.

Here's what I expected out of this new trilogy:

The original cast of characters (Han, Luke, and Leia- or some combination of the three) would be the supporting roles for a new cast of characters. They didn't need to all be killed off or changed entirely to give weight to the new story.

New protagonists who I would learn about (and perhaps even love) as I witnessed them go through an adventure together using the Hero's Journey as a template so that it would use mythic themes that made Star Wars so successful in the first place. (That part of the formula has been missing for years.) We know next to nothing about our new protagonists and their struggles feel hard to relate to because we don't see a whole lot of internal conflict within them.

I think the Hero's Journey thing is actually part of the problem. Or at least, the Star Wars version thereof is part of the problem. We've come to expect that things will play out in a particular way, and when it doesn't play out like that, we feel betrayed or like "It's not Star Wars." I would argue that Rey is absolutely on a Hero's Journey, but that the journey itself is not, like, a checklist or the recipe for a cake or whathaveyou. I see Rey as a complicated character who

I expected that this new trilogy would would have an overarching plot:

-Ep 1,2, 3 -The rise and fall of Anakin Skywalker
-Ep. 4,5, 6 -The Rise of Luke Skywalker and Darth Vader's Redemption
Ep. 7, 8, 9 -The Rise of a New Hero and ultimate triumph of good vs. evil (in some form or another)

So ultimately there HAS to be continuity between these 9 films because if they are going to deviate that much then why not just make a whole new series rather than mess with what works?

That, right there, is why you're disappointed, I think. Or at least it's one of the major reasons why you're disappointed. You're expecting 7-9 to wrap up with a bow and "defeat evil." What, like how evil was defeated at the end of ROTJ? Except...it wasn't. Not the way they structured Ep. VII (and therefore everything in between VI and VII and all that follows). ONE evil (the Emperor) was defeated, but the Emperor wasn't the sole evil in the galaxy, and the First Order rose from the ashes of the Empire to basically be Empire 2.0. And from the setup we have now...I actually think it is less likely that the end will be all wrapped up with a bow, than that it will be the end of a major chapter and start of a new series of challenges for our heroes. More on that later.

Most of all I expected that this trilogy, and all of the Saga episode films, were about several generations of the Skywalker family and would ultimately tell and conclude their story. Star Wars was a soap opera set in outer space- a space opera. The spin offs and such were intended to go off and do new things and really push the boundaries of the franchise. The saga films just had to conclude the Skywalker Saga.

And that's probably the other really big problem with your expectations: you wanted this to be all about Skywalkers. But let me ask you this: what would that actually look like? What kinds of films would those be? I'll get back to that in a minute.

I don't think the things I listed there are unreasonable expectations and in fact I think they are downright logical. When you write a book, each chapter has to somehow fit logically within the story of that book. Makes sense, no?

Unreasonable? No. But ultimately unrealistic. I'll explain in a bit, but I want to touch on one of your other comments first.

What pisses a lot of people off is when those responsible for making these new movies start labeling the fans who didn't like them as racist, or bigoted, or sexist, or somehow too stupid to understand what they are doing. When you have a business and your customers are unhappy with you and have valid criticisms, you don't tell them that they are wrong. You listen to them and then try and make things right. Will you make everyone happy? No, but you don't dismiss an entire populace of your fanbase by insulting them and their intelligence. There is a reason why your business is even IN business and it's because of the fans.

Ok, first, I know full well that not everyone who dislikes the new films is a racist or a sexist or is bigoted. However, it is absolutely undeniable that SOME people out there have been extremely vocal and extremely sexist in their discussions of Rey, and have said some pretty hateful crap about John Boyega (e.g., "WTF?! BLACK STORMTROOPERS?!?!?!") and such. Unfortunately, there are some real bottom-feeders out there who happen to love their own notion of Star Wars, and from my perspective -- and I suspect Disney's perspective -- if you lose them because you make the films more inclusive...well, **** 'em. You don't want or need those kinds of fans.

I also don't think that people who didn't like the new films are stupid, although I think saying "You don't get it" is accurate when someone's complaints about the movie ultimately indicate that they didn't understand the point of a scene or the point of this or that aspect of the story. That's also different from someone saying "I get it, I just don't like it." But that's not how many people have couched their complaints. Lots of people here have been quite clear that they understand what the point of this or that change or story decision was, but just don't like it. But elsewhere, there are plenty of fans who really don't get what's going on. Saying to them "You just don't get it" is reasonable. Doesn't mean they're stupid, but if they don't get it...then they don't get it.

That's how you lose fans and ultimately if you do it enough you will likely kill off your franchise.

I mean if they had no intention of making this new trilogy about the Skywalker family, why not just have Rian Johnson make his trilogy, and the Game of Thrones guys make their series, and Jon Favreau make his TV show? Why bother messing with the saga films if all they are going to do is mess with it?

They should have just STARTED with that rather than try and make more saga films. This way they could have made new rules for what can and can't be done in a Star Wars film without having to change the rules of what made the originals work.

I honestly don't see how they really can make this work. Everyone keeps trying to recreate the magic of the first movies, but I don't think they really understand what made those movies so good in the first place.

Rather than trying to bank on nostalgia, or destroy what was so beloved by changing all the rules in the name of "subverting expectations" why not just try to tell a good story?

How about that? Is Hollywood so creatively bankrupt that the filmmakers of our day can't even accomplish that? Are there no visionaries out there anymore? Or are the studios so cowardly that they won't take a risk on any film that isn't guaranteed to be a hit?

We have all this technology and information at our fingertips. We have Facebook and Instagram and take selfies to brag about how important we are and we can have anything we want without having to wait for it because it's more important to have instant gratification rather than learn the art of patience.

It all boils down to this simple truth. With all of this stuff in our lives and the attitudes we have, we have nothing worth saying. All that noise and what does any of it mean? Nothing.

George Lucas did something remarkable when he made Star Wars. He said that "in a world of marvelous machinery, the human spirit was even more miraculous."

Do any of these filmmakers have something positive like that to say with these new Star Wars movies? Does anyone know what theme is anymore?

Ok, so, lots to address.

First, on the subject of your expectations. I understand why you have them. It's not as if you weren't primed to have them, thanks to Disney's approach to TFA. Many of the complaints I think people have have to do with mismanagement of expectations, and in large part I lay that at JJ's feet. All of the "mystery box" bull**** is ENTIRELY his fault. The fact that Rian didn't answer the questions JJ posed isn't Rian's fault -- it's JJ's fault for NOT HAVING ANY ******* ANSWERS IN THE FIRST PLACE. How do I know this? Because that's the central tenet of his mystery box approach: the question is more important and more interesting than the answer. It sounds profound, but it's really just hacky. It's a way to create a "hook" that draws people in without ever having any intention of paying it off. So, all the hints and suggestions about Rey's parentage which are ultimately proven to be "Nope. She's a nobody," are a perfect example of this. JJ hits you with a big "OOOOOOH WHAT COULD THE MYSTERY BEEEEEEE?!?!?!?!?!" question, and you spin your wheels for several years, when the answer was ALWAYS "LOL she's a nobody. Thanks for playing!"

Still, the first new film very clearly said "This is a continuation of what came before," and then leaned heavily on the iconography of the previous films. It's actually one of my biggest criticisms of TFA, although I understand why it happened. There's ultimately a business aspect to this. Disney was taking over the franchise, and a franchise which had been -- in recent years -- basically run into the ground. They wanted to bring back much of the older audience, and kind of reset things, and they did that with TFA. Granted, they did it in one of the more ham-fisted ways you could, by basically following the old EU approach of "Look! Another superlaser! And another daring commando raid to blow it up! And kinda-sorta-Sith! And kinda-sorta Empire! And a kinda-sorta Rebellion! STAR WARS IS BACK, BABY!!!" In other words, TFA -- for some of the more important changes it introduced -- is fundamentally iterative. It just follows the same old formula, albeit with a few tweaks here and there.

I thought that was a missed opportunity, but I recognized that it was ultimately necessary to rebuild trust in the brand. I expected that the next film would be where things got REALLY different, because Disney would have enough of a foundation under them that they could spring off in other directions. I think we did get some stuff that's really different, and in ways that I really enjoyed. I've talked elsewhere about what I loved in TLJ, but I actually very much enjoyed the direction they took Luke. It's tragic, but I'm ok with that. (More on that in a minute.)

I have my nitpicks, don't get me wrong. I think the "chase in space" thing was handled poorly. It's not visually dynamic, it's not tense like two subs hunting for each other or like the cat-and-mouse game played in Master & Commander, and it introduced some stuff that felt "off" to me. I liked the hyperspace ram, but as I say, I think it was mismanaged overall. I would've liked to have seen much more steering towards the concept of "Grey Jedi," but the jury's still out on that.

On the whole, though, I liked it. I like that we're moving away from the "Skywalker saga" although, we kinda aren't when you think about it. Ben Solo is, technically, a Skywalker, so we're watching how things play out for him. I think he's a really interesting character, too. Rey is even more interesting to me, and I think she's become more interesting precisely because of how Rian handled JJ's mystery bull**** lead-in. Instead of having it be about the answer to the mystery (which was ultimately unimportant), Rian had it be about what answering that question means for the character. This also ties into one of the themes of the film, which is a larger scale version of the refusal to the call to action. There's the simple version that Luke goes through in Ep. IV where he tells Ben he won't go with him, and then 5 min later comes back from his destroyed homestead and says "I'll go with you." Rey goes through that in TFA ultimately, but by the end of it, she's kinda backed down and said "I'm gonna go find Luke so he can save us all!" Thereby rejecting the call, again. The galaxy has called Rey up to defend it. The Force has manifested itself in her, not in Luke, who has cut himself off from the Force. Rey's time on Ach-To is all about her coming to terms with the fact that she is the one who has to save the galaxy, and that she is the one who must chart her own course. She can learn some things from Luke, but ultimately, she has to take the journey herself. Luke can't do it for her. And so, she does. But to do that, she also has to resolve some of her own doubts. The cave sequence is, as I see it, is where this happens. She asks who she is, where she comes from, searching for some kind of connection, some kind of thing she can hold on to to provide her structure, answers, a path. And all the cave tells her is "You are Rey." Ultimately, she has to decide "...and that is enough." She has to choose to be satisfied with being Rey, rather than with being Rey Skywalker or Rey Kenobi or whathaveyou. Most importantly, she has to realize that she must choose her own path; no one will lay it out for her.

That's one of the central themes to this film, actually, and it stands in sharp contrast to Ben's journey. Ben is actually a mirror image of Rey in this sense. Everything about him that's "special" is a matter of destiny, of bloodline. He was born into a path; he never got to choose. Even his choice to turn to the Dark Side follows in the footsteps of his grandfather, and he keeps trying to glean a path forward from that past. This also explains his desire to KILL the past. Of course he'd want to kill it. The past has dictated his every step his whole life in any direction he moves. I think, ultimately, that's the source of his rage: he sees himself as utterly trapped. Any move he makes, someone in his family already did. Be a beacon of light for the Jedi? Luke did it. Turn to the Dark Side and rule the galaxy with an iron fist? Vader did it. Go into politics? Leia did it. Chuck it all and travel the space lanes? Han did it. About the only unique thing he could do would be to become a gardener or open up a tea shop or something! Rey, on the other hand, has no direction to her life. All she had was survival and existence, without thought to purpose. All she did was wait for her family to come for her until events propelled her from her home and into the larger galaxy. Even then, she spent much of the first film wanting to go back to Jakku, and still struggles with that in TLJ.

One of the other themes plays on Rey's status as a "nobody": namely that anybody can be a "somebody." Greatness isn't a matter of destiny or bloodline. Greatness is a matter of choice, raw ability, and luck (or the Force), and it can happen to anyone. That point is reinforced everywhere in this film, with Rose, Finn, the stable hand, and Rey. That, to me, strikes the kind of tone you're looking for that Lucas highlighted. That hopeful vision of a better world not because of technology, not because of your birth, but because of your choices. It's also part of Ben's tragedy: he doesn't understand that, in spite of his past, ultimately, he is the one who gets to choose how he lives, and as long as he struggles against his past, he's still only reacting rather than choosing.

I recognize that there's also some concerns in how this film seems to take a "contrarian" approach to Star Wars, while simultaneously not utterly shattering the mold. Except that I think the film has done just that, albeit in a more subtle way than might be seen at first blush. Yes, at the end of it, we're still dealing with a black-clad, red-sabre-wielding bad guy, dueling with a blue-sabre-wielding good guy, a giant "Empire" bearing down on a tiny "Rebellion", and a nascent Jedi finding her path. But there's a lot that is different. The good guy who duels the bad guy? He can't be defeated, and he makes the bad guy look like a chump. The Rebellion? It's basically one ship full of people, and that's it. That nascent Jedi? We don't know what her path will be. And that big Empire? We don't know how or whether it will hold on.

But more importantly, I think, is that the situation we end Ep. VIII in does not lend itself to easy, quick resolution and the defeat of the great evil at the end of Ep. IX. There's way too much to do to take down the First Order in a single film. I actually really hope they don't try to do that. Instead, I suspect we'll see the First Order be dealt a major blow, that follows up on their failure to destroy the Resistance on Crait, and which breaks the galaxy wide open as more people fight back against its oppression. I could see where Ben is defeated or killed, or becomes a "fallen Jedi" anti-hero who will wander the galaxy searching for his own redemption or purpose. I could see new Jedi coming to the fore. Not necessarily the stable hand (although maybe him), but people like him, and none of them walking the path set out in the past for the Jedi. Instead, taking a more holistic approach to the Force as a kind of balance between Dark and Light. In short, I see not the end of a tale, but rather the end of the beginning of a tale.

This gets to my last point about expectations and the "Skywalker Saga." As I said, we still kind of have the "Skywalker Saga" in the form of Ben. We don't know what his future holds, and I could see it easily as him surviving the next film and into yet more movies/stories. I think it'd be rather a waste to kill him off, since I think he and Rey make such terrific counterpoints to each other. Their stories could stretch for multiple films over multiple years, if you wanted them to. There's no need to just kill him off at the end of this next film if the filmmakers don't want to, and I think it'd be a really interesting story choice to let him live and then have him deal with the consequences of his choices.

Anyway, I think the films need to move beyond the Skywalker Saga. Not just the "Star Wars stories" but the Episodes. Following JUST the Skywalkers for generation after generation would ultimately get stale. It would feel very much like the same ol' same ol', and probably in a very short time. TFA already suffered from that somewhat.

Waaaaaaaay back when the PT was first announced, and the various EU books were crapping up the Star Wars Universe with the Yuzhan Bio-Borg and such, I had an idea about where the future of the Star Wars galaxy could go. To avoid all the garbage that had accumulated up to that point, I thought you'd really need to just set your story waaaaaay far into the future of the galaxy. The heroes of the OT would be gone, their grandchildren, even, would be gone. The story would focus on entirely new characters who would have no real connection to the past. I thought about that again when they announced TFA. I was REALLY worried about the reliance on the past, and did NOT want to see just another iteration. I accepted it when it happened, because overall I thought they did it well, but I was also really nervous about the films killing off my beloved characters. I got over that, though, and accepted it as just...how things had to go. You can't give the OT heroes a happy ending AND have the same crap happen again 30 years later. It doesn't make sense. You can't really have them be involved as much in the new films either, without also running the risk of diminishing them in some way. Although, that's really how the world works: the old guard gives way to the new. Mostly, I just didn't want 'em to kill Han Solo.

But I accepted it when that's what happened, and I ultimately wasn't that bothered by it. I made peace with it, in large part because I liked the new characters and the direction the story could go. I like the freedom we now have to move beyond just retelling the same Star Wars tale over and over and over again. I should also note that I was a big consumer of the EU stuff up until the Black Fleet Crisis came out, and while I LOVED (and still love!) the Thrawn Trilogy, nothing else ever came remotely close, and all of the other stories seemed to rely upon the heroes being almost frozen in amber. They weren't really allowed to grow or change. They could accumulate experiences, but that accumulation didn't amount to a ton, at least in the books I read. To me, that's the worst possible fate for Star Wars, and it's EXACTLY what I see happening if the films don't really break the old mold the way TLJ did. Now, they still have to remain "Star Wars." They can't just be some other movie franchise with a Star Wars skin, as happened with Star Trek (which is really just Star Wars/generic-space-action-movie with characters named Kirk and Spock wearing primary colored shirts). Star Trek offers a cautionary tale about how NOT to manage a franchise, but I think Disney/LFL has learned that lesson well, and the totality of the stuff they've put out so far suggests that they want to maintain the overall character of the films, while also expanding their focus and style.

 

[cboath]

In short, for 20+ years, ROTJ DID end with a nice happy bow on it. And no one expect the Empire to just cave in and fold because the death star blew up and the top two baddies were dead.. It was assumed the good guys would go on to mop up, which they actually did do and drove the remnants out to the unknown regions or whatever.

The prequels could have a bad end because, well, they weren't the end. The OT had existed for pushing 20 years by the end of the prequels and everyone knew going in the prequels were going to have a bad end. It's not remotely the same.

There's no known date for X (and god willing it won't be X, it'll be something else...). Will the series keep the juggernaut running with a non-happy end? Does anyone think it smart to end with a good guys get their butts beat, the end, see you in a decade? You want the people coming back and you don't want to leave them with a bad taste in their mouths. Not after the response TLJ got - regardless of what side your on.

 

[Bryancd]

In short, for 20+ years, ROTJ DID end with a nice happy bow on it. And no one expect the Empire to just cave in and fold because the death star blew up and the top two baddies were dead.. It was assumed the good guys would go on to mop up, which they actually did do and drove the remnants out to the unknown regions or whatever.

The prequels could have a bad end because, well, they weren't the end. The OT had existed for pushing 20 years by the end of the prequels and everyone knew going in the prequels were going to have a bad end. It's not remotely the same.

There's no known date for X (and god willing it won't be X, it'll be something else...). Will the series keep the juggernaut running with a non-happy end? Does anyone think it smart to end with a good guys get their butts beat, the end, see you in a decade? You want the people coming back and you don't want to leave them with a bad taste in their mouths. Not after the response TLJ got - regardless of what side your on.

In another 20+ years TLJ will be but one of dozens of STAR WARS films. I think that put's all of this into the correct context.