Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker (Post-release)

[gedmac66]

TFA was promising... so much potential to expand this universe I’ve loved since an 11yr old.... ah well !

 

[sztriki]

Why are people still debating this Disney Star Wars trilogy?

Even the actors involved are stepping away from it

J

F*ck if I know mate...

 

[Joek3rr]

I have to ask. If you got everything you want from this movie as well as this new trilogy, what difference does it make to you that other people disagree with the choices made in them? No one is stopping you from endlessly enjoying them. Telling other fans they are wrong for not accepting these new additions does nothing but breed contempt because it essentially talks down to us as if we don't understand what we saw.

I'm thrilled that you love these new movies and I don't begrudge you for enjoying them. I think most of us here feel that way and it's not our place to tell you how to enjoy Star Wars, just like it's not your place to tell us how to enjoy it. What I do find bothersome is your constant need to "correct" fans at every opportunity as though it were some simple misunderstanding. At the very least if you want an honest discussion about it, you'd be better off occasionally acknowledging that not every choice made in the scripts were the result of genius. I've often conceded on the points raised against elements of the OT, though I often disagree, but as a writer I can acknowledge where there are inherent flaws. It just seems like you are unwilling to do the same with these movies and it strikes me as disingenuous because you are so biased to love them.

Not to mention your constant need to place the focus of the script choices on George Lucas is absurd. Rian Johnson wrote The Last Jedi and directed it. Lucas had no involvement whatsoever on that movie. Trying to shift the blame for Rian's choices to George makes no sense. I seem to recall an interview George did with Charlie Rose where he expressed his bitterness toward Disney for rejecting his treatments for 7,8, and 9 even going so far as to describe it as a nasty divorce. Just because they took some of the ideas George suggested doesn't in any way mean that he would have executed them the same way had he directed the sequels.

I find it bothersome that you and others feel the need to endlessly bitch about the films anytime someone posts something positive.

 

[Joek3rr]

Finally the truth is revealed! This stupid theory that it was all planned from the beginning was literally just blown out of the water by the lead actress. There is no way to refute this.

Refute what? Like Daisy was present for every meeting of the creative leads.

I stand by what I've always said. Palpatine, and possibly Rey Palpatine was planned. Was it THE plan? Nope. Nothing ever is, but I guarantee it was something they talked about. They've said that it was stuff they talked about doing. Everthing is written in pencil so to speak. They never want to box themselves in creative by creating a rigid plan. And before you say 'but Marvel.' Marvel made everything the same way. They didn't come up with a grand plan, come to the filmmakers and say 'this is the movie your going to make.' No they came to the filmmakers and 'what film do you want to make?'

 

[The Brahma Bull]

I find it bothersome that you and others feel the need to endlessly bitch about the films anytime someone posts something positive.

That's the unique thing about the ST. If people don't like it, a few people bitch about other people not liking it and tell those people they got everything wrong about the movies. In fact these movies didn't get anything right.

 

[Psab keel]

Post all the positive stuff you want about the movies. I don't care. But don't act as if you haven't corrected fans constantly every time someone points out a problem with TLJ. You say all we do it bitch but all you do is praise.

At the least you'd have more supporters if you could acknowledge where things could have been done better in some cases. I've acknowledged the strengths of the ST, as few as they are, as well as the flaws of the OT. You seem totally convinced as though the ST is without flaw and to try and convince other of that is what gets tiresome.

When have I EVER said fans weren't allowed to love these movies?

 

[Joek3rr]

Post all the positive stuff you want about the movies. I don't care. But don't act as if you haven't corrected fans constantly every time someone points out a problem with TLJ. You say all we do it bitch but all you do is praise.

At the least you'd have more supporters if you could acknowledge where things could have been done better in some cases. I've acknowledged the strengths of the ST, as few as they are, as well as the flaws of the OT. You seem totally convinced as though the ST is without flaw and to try and convince other of that is what gets tiresome.

When have I EVER said fans weren't allowed to love these movies?

But therein lies the problem. What you and others say are "problems". I do not. I can tell you that when someone lists out why they don't like TLJ it almost always point for point what I love about TLJ. So somebody is wrong......

 

[Psab keel]

Well obviously I think you're wrong about TLJ. But it's not my place to tell you to how to enjoy it.

Just don't let your love for it blind you to the way other fans feel. It's not your job to convince us. It was Rian's job and he failed. You shouldn't have to fight his battles for him.

You can be critical of something and still love it. I love my wife with everything I've got and would literally die for her if the need arose, but it doesn't mean I agree with everything she does.

 

[Joek3rr]

Here I fixed it for you.

View attachment 1346171

None of that makes sense.

Let's take Luke Skywalker who quote. "He felt responsible. He just walked away from in all." And have a total stranger walk up and give him his father's lightsaber. And his reaction is supposed to be what? 'Oh thank you for returning the symbol of everything I hate and abhor right now. The last I time held this was literally the worst day of my entire life.'

The lessons he learned are meaningless if doesn't trust himself anymore. He's disillusioned with himself.

Right let's have Luke pull his X-wing out of the water. Show up in person and kill his nephew? Or have his nephew kill him? What exactly is he going to do? Wait didn't he own up to his mistakes? "I failed you Ben. I'm sorry." Is this what you wanted?

And Luke chooses to become one with the Force. Having found peace and purpose. It's not violent death. It's a peaceful passing. But I guess a violent death with Luke going in a blaze of fire is better?

 

[Bigdaddy]

So somebody is wrong......

It's called subjective appreciation... Only a Sith (or Jedi) deal in absolutes.

 

[Psab keel]

Of course it doesn't makes sense to you because you're blinded by your bias to all of Rian's choices. Your love for it is so strong that you can't even conceive that there were other ways the story could have gone.

 

[mattycsi]

They never want to box themselves in creative by creating a rigid plan. And before you say 'but Marvel.' Marvel made everything the same way. They didn't come up with a grand plan, come to the filmmakers and say 'this is the movie your going to make.' No they came to the filmmakers and 'what film do you want to make?'

Marvel did have a grand plan though. They announced release schedules of films way in advance.
The filmmakers were allowed a lot of free reign but there were a lot of boxes they had to check off in order for the 20 movie universe to converge at Endgame in a coherant manner.
They weren't retconning each film in order for the next one to make sense.

 

[Joek3rr]

Marvel did have a grand plan though. They announced release schedules of films way in advance.
The filmmakers were allowed a lot of free reign but there were a lot of boxes they had to check off in order for the 20 movie universe to converge at Endgame in a coherant manner.
They weren't retconning each film in order for the next one to make sense.

The most simple way I could put it is Marvel doesn't come to the filmmakers and say, "Here's what the next movie is." They come to the filmmakers and say, "What is the next movie?" That's very much the process.

—Director Anthony Russo in April 2016

Sounds familiar? I seem to remember Rian making some similar statements.

Eh, but they do retcon each other at times.

 

[Psab keel]

Not to mention that working within the confines of a structure can ironically be liberating because it forces you to be creative in ways you otherwise wouldn't be. Sometimes those limitations can elevate the material from something good to something great.

Just look at what George did with the first film. He took whatever he had on hand and made it work despite everything being stacked against him.

 

[cboath]

That's the unique thing about the ST. If people don't like it, a few people bitch about other people not liking it and tell those people they got everything wrong about the movies. In fact these movies didn't get anything right.

Here's the thing, i've got no problem with people liking the ST. Not at all. I have a problem with them refusing to hear a single bad thing about it and never admitting that it has plenty of issues. There are very few absolutes out there.

If you like something and someone doesn't, sometimes the best thing is to say nothing at all. However, there's no point in entering a conversation/debate if you are completely unwilling to admit the other guy has a point or you may possibly be wrong.

I do find it funny (awkward) that some thing they're all good. I can see liking TLJ and not RoS or vice versa, but not both. One does all it can to undo the other. Not to mention TLJ undoes TFA which undoes ROTJ....

 

[sztriki]

Right let's have Luke pull his X-wing out of the water. Show up in person and kill his nephew? Or have his nephew kill him? What exactly is he going to do? Wait didn't he own up to his mistakes? "I failed you Ben. I'm sorry." Is this what you wanted?

And Luke chooses to become one with the Force. Having found peace and purpose. It's not violent death. It's a peaceful passing. But I guess a violent death with Luke going in a blaze of fire is better?

Any response to that will be met with the usual "aha, so you didn't get your fanfic version so that's why you didn't like it!". Here's the thing, most people don't go to see a movie to see a movie they already have in their heads. It's the job of the filmmakers to come up with compelling and interesting movies, not the audience's. Let me respond with a question that is still within the realms of the movie: what does Luke achieve by staying away?

 

[Joek3rr]

Joker and that reddit post doesn’t make sense. First, characters don’t have to hit every single aspect of the hero’s journey, just the major points which is why there are still variations in stories. Second, if that reddit post is true, Luke’s journey makes no sense.

you are telling me that after overthrowing the empire, seeing his father return as a Jedi in force ghost form, and reuniting with Leia and Han (returning to his family), Luke then suddenly refuses to return (despite already having returned) and exiles himself to Ahch-To where he waited for someone to bring him back which was Rey? And his return is not to his home and family but the battlefield where he faces off against Kylo Ren, then dies because he used the force too much?

Ofcourse, you are also telling me that I am completely wrong about Luke Skywalker. That if he even sensed a hint of darkness from Han or Leia, he would not hesitate to activate his lightsaber and turn against them.

And even assuming your interpretation of Luke is absolutely correct, his actions in TLJ still don’t make sense. As I said before although you probably stopped reading just so you can call out that Luke did attack Vader at the beginning of the fight, this might make sense if Ben was a force wielder who is completely devoid of light, a dark side wielder who is so innately evil that even our hero Luke considered the unthinkable (killing an innocent child) to prevent the rise of the monster that Ben would become. After all, Luke did try to strike down the Emperor who is the dark side incarnate.

However, this completely flies in the face of Ben’s characterization in TFA where he was a Vader-wannabe who couldn’t even reach Vader’s level of darkness because there was too much light in him, a man who after killing Han gets even more conflicted, a dude who couldn’t shoot a vessel for fear of killing his mom.

Luke’s fear of Kylo Ren was also completely unwarranted as well. The dude is a literal non-threat. The only major character Ben killed was an unarmed old Han in a fatherly hug. Kylo is toyed with by Luke, couldn’t kill Finn, failed to lay a scratch on untrained Rey, he might be the most harmless villain following Nute Gunray. This is the “threat” Luke was afraid of?

No they dont have to hit every point. But they should hit some. And as it stands (if I understand this correctly) ROTJ leaves Luke hanging at the second threshold. There's no return home (ala Frodo), Luke returns with his new knowledge, he never returns with the boon. Which I would say in my opinion is act of not fighting. In TLJ Luke takes that act of not fighting to the extreme, until he comes to the realization he can balance himself. By not fighting yet still confronting his nephew and saving his sister. That's my interpretation.

Luke surrenders himself to the Force. He becomes one with the Force on his own volition.

Luke turning on Han or Leia sensing a hint of darkness would completely out of character.(and is not what happens between Luke and Ben) Luke reacting breifly to a vision, a threat to his loved ones, before coming to his senses is in character. Remember this isnt just some bad dream. This is vision of the future in the Force. They are incredibly visceral and emotional happenings. Luke would never consciously consider killing a friend or loved one. But add fear, which leads to anger, which leads to hate, and twisted by the dark side Luke becomes.

Remember Luke sensed the dark side within Ben for sometime. Yet he took no actions to harm him. He doesn't go bonkers and try to kill him just because he senses some darkness.(also Ben isn't a child, stop with the misinformation) It's when he looks inside his mind and finds out that Ben has completely fallen. And he's presented with a vision of the future. A future where Kylo Ren brings pain and destruction and the end of everything Luke loves.

Luke isn't afraid of Kylo. Luke is afraid of what the future could be.

 

[Psab keel]

Again you are running on the assumption that this story was inevitable or that it was the ONLY way Episode 8 could have gone. Which is simply not true.

 

[HeartBlade]

Refute what? Like Daisy was present for every meeting of the creative leads.

I stand by what I've always said. Palpatine, and possibly Rey Palpatine was planned. Was it THE plan? Nope. Nothing ever is, but I guarantee it was something they talked about. They've said that it was stuff they talked about doing. Everthing is written in pencil so to speak. They never want to box themselves in creative by creating a rigid plan. And before you say 'but Marvel.' Marvel made everything the same way. They didn't come up with a grand plan, come to the filmmakers and say 'this is the movie your going to make.' No they came to the filmmakers and 'what film do you want to make?'

Dude, a plan is something you stick to. If Rey Palpatine was one of several possibilities, that is called brainstorming and is not a plan.

try writing an essay and you don’t know if you are for the act in question or against and bring that to your teacher. Your teacher would laugh you out and tell you to plan out your argument.

Marvel was planned out pretty rigidly which is why Joss Whedon got fed up trying to tie in all the plot threads and character develops with foreshadowing the producers wanted in Age of Ultron. It’s only more recently Marvel loosened the strings and allowed directors to do what they want.

Obviously not a Marvel director so I don’t know exactly how much is planned but given the fact that Feigie has outlined a timeline of movies, he knows what characters he wants to bring in, what their role is to the overarching story, and where the story is going.

 

[Joek3rr]

Dude, a plan is something you stick to. If Rey Palpatine was one of several possibilities, that is called brainstorming and is not a plan.

try writing an essay and you don’t know if you are for the act in question or against and bring that to your teacher. Your teacher would laugh you out and tell you to plan out your argument.

Marvel was planned out pretty rigidly which is why Joss Whedon got fed up trying to tie in all the plot threads and character develops with foreshadowing the producers wanted in Age of Ultron. It’s only more recently Marvel loosened the strings and allowed directors to do what they want.

Obviously not a Marvel director so I don’t know exactly how much is planned but given the fact that Feigie has outlined a timeline of movies, he knows what characters he wants to bring in, what their role is to the overarching story, and where the story is going.

The most simple way I could put it is Marvel doesn't come to the filmmakers and say, "Here's what the next movie is." They come to the filmmakers and say, "What is the next movie?" That's very much the process.

—Director Anthony Russo in April 2016