Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker (Post-release)

[HeartBlade]

I do disagree with JB on one thing which is they knew what to do with Rey. They did not, or at least what they had planned was terrible. Rey really doesn’t develop as a character despite being the main. Poe doesn’t get much development either, going from overpowered ace pilot to even better pilot and commander. Should have stuck with the original idea of killing off Poe and having Finn grow into that role instead.

And Rose got shafted too. Her role in TLJ was like Jar Jar in a way, just filler. And she gets regulated from secondary character to background in RoS. Despite Lucasfilms defending Rose when she was attacked by fans for being “in charge of logistics and helping drive a speeder against the laser,” she not only gets limited screen time in RoS but her man is taken by another newly introduced character.

I guess it would be like Lando betrayed the rebellion in ESB and instead of getting a redemption arc, he stays in Cloud City while a brand new character comes in to help save Han and fly the falcon to destroy the second Death Star.

 

[Psab keel]

I agree with you but I think it's high time we stop justifying the choices made in the OT. Ultimately their success or failure is pretty irrelevant when discussing the follow up movies. If we are going to have an honest discussion about the strengths and weaknesses of the ST, maybe all of us should focus on those films alone.

 

[cboath]

I'm not sure kylo really evovled either as much as he simply died because his mother got in his head during a fight and rey's saving him made him thing 'maybe i Q@#$%ed this up after all?'. There was no evolution, just a left turn near the end which got him tossed down a shaft...

If anything, he de-vovled. He was menacing with a bit of nutjob in TFA, total headcase in TLJ, and then apparently EP's tool in ROTS. I guess he at least faced adversity...Rey kicked his but in 7 and at best tied in 8...rey, OTOH, the worst thing to happen to her was she got kidnapped before she knew she had powers, got out on her own, kick Kylo's butt, thought she could save him in the next one, fought him again. She woke up first so she could have taken him out there as well. There was the hint of something new and evolution had they joined forces in the middle - but no. Kept the status quo. She just went through all 3 winning pretty much every encounter that mattered.

 

[cboath]

hell...compare that to the OT:
Luke: had the only family he knew get killed -brutually - to which he witnessed the end result. The only other person he knew at that point (that we were aware of in '77 anyhow) was then killed as he watched. In ESB, gets whacked and captured by a wampa, gets his ass kicked by vader, loses his hand and finds out Darth is his dad.

Leia, watched her entire planet kill blown up. Got captured, tortured....all in ANH. In ESB her base is taken over and she has to run, and is told she's basically being held prisoner and is going to be turned over to vader, again. In ROTJ she falls off a speeder bike and later is shot in the arm.

Han, is on the run from Jabba to start things off. Doesn't have anything really bad happen in ANH. Is captured and ruthlessly tortured in ESB, is frozen in carbonite for like a year.

Now, adversity doesn't equate necessarily to character development - but come on. Leia getting shot in the arm is nearly worse than anything that happened to the 'trio' in the ST. Sure, she saw Han die, but she knew him what? a day or so? Kylo couldn't crack into her head...so her issue there was being strapped to a chair? I realize that's sugar coating it, but it's not that far off.

Again, adversity in an of itself, doesn't necessarily make you better in the end, but no adversity definitely doesn't make you evolve at all.

 

[Psab keel]

No conflict no story. It's one of the building blocks of fiction.

 

[BTTUK]

Isn’t that…exactly what you’re doing? Attacking my argument based off of some perceived attack on someone else, rather than actually say anything? And have done every time you chime in here? I don’t see you offering any concrete arguments for the ST, just popping in every now and then to say “Oh, your argument is bad because of Latin phrase that I know or yet another person misusing a word.” Try, I don’t know, contributing to the conversation?

Not particularly the same, and the fact you feel in some way "attacked" over someone suggesting that calling someone dense for having a differing opinion about a film(s), is extremely petty and immature.

Which is further compounded by somehow feeling that a well known latin phrase is somehow indicative of something more than simply employing a phrase correctly, in the correct context. I'll bear your objection to it in mind for the future.

In this thread alone, I have contributed my thoughts and feelings on not only the ST film series, but the PT film series and the OT one too. I have expressed many opinions on what I liked about TFA/TLJ, and my dislikes of each and how they relate to the other 6 films. I have also expressed here my thoughts on this specific film, and why I dislike it, and what I feel it did to actually impact the narrative of the OT, whilst also postulating my own storylines that I feel may have been better, and discussing other people's ideas on that matter too.

If you wish to take my previous one as you clearly did, then okay crack right on. However feel free to actually check all my previous posts here, before casting erroneous aspersions.

I have also never said anyone's arguments for or against this film or the others are bad, because I don't feel any of them have been bad. In fact many on both sides, I have found very compelling, and been pursuaded by.

As for my dipping in and out. Well if you'd be so kind to excuse me for having the temerity of enjoying my time with my children, rather than spend it on here, i'd be much obliged indeed.

Quia nunc vale.

 

[BTTUK]

I'm going to say it. Mark Hamill and John Boyega are suffering from what I'm calling 'supporting character syndrome.'

I don't think that's true at all. John strikes me as being disappointed in the dis-organised and, at times, chaotic way the series was handled after TFA.

I doubt Mark cares about whether he was the main character or a supporting character. I base that off an interview he did on a podcast with James O'Brien where he explicity says that he has no desire to be the leading man, he just wants to be part of it, and he came across as genuinely meaning that. For me, he was immersed in being Luke Skywalker, and had such an experience from the OT that he seems a little deflated that further works, didn't capture his character in the way he felt it back in the 70's/80's, and that being so close to fans over the decades he could feel that the direction of Luke may cause issues rather than being the focal unifyer that Luke as character was in the OT.

Just my two pence

 

[HeartBlade]

Not to overly praise Mark since I don’t know the guy but he does seem to be a genuine fan of the series as well unlike Ford. He likes to do silly things like surprise fans by disguising himself as a stormtrooper (which both hides his face and is a reference to ANH), or surprise fans by coming out with a toy lightsaber. He seems to genuinely like playing Luke and probably also likes seeing more Star Wars and if he gets to be in it, cool.

I also agree that if we are discussing the ST’s merits, the choices made in OT or PT shouldn’t matter unless they affect the story of ST to make it inevitable (they can’t suddenly retcon that Vader was always a good guy Jedi and he was spying on Palpatine for example since that wasn’t the case clearly in PT or OT).

I also agree that Kylo’s development wasn’t amazing but it was by far the best of all the characters in the ST. He starts out was a want-to-be Sith but his main struggle is internal, destroying his light which is arguably the opposite of Anakin despite being in the same situation. He tries to do it in TFA by killing Dad Solo and continue down that path by killing Snoke and showing Rey he is truly irredeemable. But like Vader, there is still good in him and he is able to reawaken as Ben again due to the love of his parents which seems to be another big factor in Star Wars. Thus, instead of choosing to serve Palpatine like his idol Vader, he chooses to fight.

there are still a lot of flaws with his character but he makes a better protagonist with a more interesting story arc than Rey.

 

[Laspector]

I will agree that Kylo was the best thing about the ST. I really liked his character. That stuff in TFA when he is asking about "a droid stole a freighter?" and then he whips out his lightsaber and just starts going ballistic on the wall an' sh1t---I was like WTF? That was unexpected!! and then those stormtroopers are all like "we don't want any part of this!"--I thought that was cool as hell!! I never thought "emo" or whatever, I just thought "this guy is messed the F- up!!"

That being said, yeah, later on, some of it didn't really go the way I would've wanted it to, but personally I just don't dwell on it. Nothing could've ever met up to my expectations, so I just go with it. I look at it this way--sh1t happens, it doesn't always happen the way you want it to......whatever....just deal with it. I knew way before TFA even came out, nothing was ever EVER going to take me back to 1977, so why fight it? You can scream and fuss and bitch and whine about the problems with the ST all you want....ain't gonna change anything. Me, I got better things to do.

I kind of like that Luke was this burned out old war vet. Let's face it, unfortunately, that does happen to a lot of vets. My biggest problem with TLJ was the Force projecting crap. Either let Luke really go there and fight or not, but not just send in a "phone call that kills you."

Arguing Star Wars is as about as fruitless as arguing politics...Just like it or don't like it, watch what you like and don't watch what you don't like. Why bother yourself with all the negativity?

But, this is a Star Wars thread, so knock yourself out.......

 

[CT1138]

I've openly acknowledged the shortcomings of the originals. Some ST fans can't even acknowledge the flaws of the ST at all, no matter how minor. I'd call that a double standard.

I have many problems with the ST, but believing that the Disney and the ST created over commercialization of Star Wars is not one of them, and I sincerely believe that Lucas' track record of slapping the SW logo on just about everything from toilet paper to stationary can support that belief.

 

[Psab keel]

I have no contention over Disney/Lucasfilm marketing and merchandising the ST. As you said Lucas did the same and it's a necessary part of the process of funding future movies. Ticket sales alone can't pay for that. I'm totally on board with you there!

My criticism has almost completely been about the scripts and creative choices of the directors.

 

[HeartBlade]

I think there is a difference between angry because you didn’t get what you expect vs angry because the story doesn’t make sense.

I think a lot of fans here don’t mind the fact that Luke became jaded and withdrawn. That is an interesting turn for Luke and happens in real life.

what fans do take issue with though is the reason why Luke became so jaded because the cause seems so small and inconsequential compared to what Luke has experienced before.

to put it in a humorous note, it’s like Rambo surviving years of torture during war but giving up the troop locations because they said please.

Luke remained hopeful and kept faith in the good in Vader despite everyone around him saying he is too far gone, including Vader himself. Vader, the man who killed children, wiped out the Jedi order, and has ruled with an iron fist. But a vision of Ben turning bad is what sets Luke off.

 

[Psab keel]

There was potential there and like the PT some of those ideas were interesting. I just thought overall they botched it.

I honestly didn't know what to expect and that was refreshing for a change. Nine years of the PT held more expectations because we all knew what was going to happen, it was just a matter of how well it was done.

When the ST was announced it was like a bomb dropped because no one expected it. With the EU stricken from the Canon it actually opened up the possibilities of what could happen to the story because it was no longer beholden to anything. In that way it was a good thing because they weren't limiting themselves creatively, or so many of us thought.

So I agree with you. Anger over expectations not being met is a vastly different thing than being angry about inconsistencies in the films themselves as well as how they would fit into the overall saga.

My disappointment was that if they were going to continue the saga, and especially bring back the original cast then they were obligated to utilize those characters in a meaningful way and not just for brand recognition alone.

It's sad to me that they brought back Han, Luke, Leia, Ackbar, and Palpatine, only to kill each of them off instead of letting the new cast face off with their own threats rather than less effectively retreading the past.

 

[knightedbylight]

its a good movie for measuring the intelligence of a population.

 

[Psab keel]

I take it you're referring to this moment....

 

[knightedbylight]

ive actually never seen that. and if its red letter media, that is my most hated youtube show.

 

[Psab keel]

I love Red Letter Media!

 

[Joek3rr]

I think there is a difference between angry because you didn’t get what you expect vs angry because the story doesn’t make sense.

I think a lot of fans here don’t mind the fact that Luke became jaded and withdrawn. That is an interesting turn for Luke and happens in real life.

what fans do take issue with though is the reason why Luke became so jaded because the cause seems so small and inconsequential compared to what Luke has experienced before.

to put it in a humorous note, it’s like Rambo surviving years of torture during war but giving up the troop locations because they said please.

Luke remained hopeful and kept faith in the good in Vader despite everyone around him saying he is too far gone, including Vader himself. Vader, the man who killed children, wiped out the Jedi order, and has ruled with an iron fist. But a vision of Ben turning bad is what sets Luke off.

Wait what does that have to do with TROS? Just can't stop yourselves from going back to TLJ. That's okay I'll indulge because I love TLJ

It's because of Luke's experiences that cause him to react the way he does. He's knows visions of the future can come true. He's come face to face with the dark side incarnate. He knows the threat of dark side how it can twist a person. He's experienced it first hand, in himself and his father. And frankly to have Luke have any other kind of reaction then he did would very out of character. No ands, ifs, or buts.

 

[PantheraGem]

A ton of fans, and seemingly Mark Hamill, completely disagree.

 

[Psab keel]

TLJ. A film so divisive and inconsistent with the previous 7 films that even JJ had to retcon Luke and many of the key ideas of it in TROS. Not to mention it's rumored that Lucas himself described it as "soulless."