Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker (Post-release)

[Solo4114]

I think that's exactly what Rian Johnson was setting up in TLJ. Or at least trying to set up, before Abrams and Terrio ****-canned the whole idea.

Yeah, I do, too, and it could still happen. But I think Abrams just wanted to do Star Wars fan films that stay firmly within the fishbowl, and Johnson wanted to expand the franchise's horizons. Ultimately, and somewhat unsurprisingly, the suits went with what they knew would be predictable and sellable.

 

[HeartBlade]

::sad trombone::



Rey was the last Jedi, but she was not the last Force user in the galaxy. There are at least two that we know of, right? Finn and the stableboy. I’d have to think there are many, many more out there.



I think that's exactly what Rian Johnson was setting up in TLJ. Or at least trying to set up, before Abrams and Terrio ****-canned the whole idea.

by force user, I mean someone who can actually use the force and know what they are doing. So it’s really just Kylo Ren and Rey since Luke is dead and Snoke was a clone of Palpatine which should be gone but who knows.

Sure Finn and Broom boy have an affinity for the force but no true control which is why I didn’t count them.

I dont know if this is the direction RJ wanted to go toward. I do think there was some good potential in the discussion between Luke and Rey about how the force belongs to everyone but this really wasn’t built upon in TLJ unfortunately and dropped in RoS.

 

[squirk]

by force user, I mean someone who can actually use the force and know what they are doing. So it’s really just Kylo Ren and Rey since Luke is dead and Snoke was a clone of Palpatine which should be gone but who knows.

Sure Finn and Broom boy have an affinity for the force but no true control which is why I didn’t count them.

I dont know if this is the direction RJ wanted to go toward. I do think there was some good potential in the discussion between Luke and Rey about how the force belongs to everyone but this really wasn’t built upon in TLJ unfortunately and dropped in RoS.

I agree. It is indeed unfortunate that Abrams and Terrio dropped perhaps the best and freshest thematic element of TLJ.

I wonder if Rey is going to let the idea of Force-centric institutions just die, or if she will try to either a.) rebuild a more balanced (grey) Jedi order; or b.) go off in a completely new direction in terms of bringing together Force-sensitive individuals throughout the galaxy.

 

[squirk]

Yeah, I do, too, and it could still happen. But I think Abrams just wanted to do Star Wars fan films that stay firmly within the fishbowl, and Johnson wanted to expand the franchise's horizons. Ultimately, and somewhat unsurprisingly, the suits went with what they knew would be predictable and sellable.

Agree 100%.

This is why I wasn’t particularly overjoyed with Disney buying LFL - it meant that future SW movies were going to become “films made by committee,” and handled as “products” in and of themselves. Arguably, really good products, but I think something valuable was lost in that transition.

The PT was flawed, without a doubt, but it was pure. You knew that you were watching exactly what the filmmaker wanted you to see, instead of a being a product of uncreative executives armed with studio notes and veto power, and who are focused on little more than a film’s marketability.

I do like the ST overall. But I confess that the PT, warts and all, still feels like it has more “soul” to it.

 

[cboath]

Yeah, I do, too, and it could still happen. But I think Abrams just wanted to do Star Wars fan films that stay firmly within the fishbowl, and Johnson wanted to expand the franchise's horizons. Ultimately, and somewhat unsurprisingly, the suits went with what they knew would be predictable and sellable.

I'm fine with expanding the horizon's. I'm not OK with pissing on what came before which they BOTH did with 7 and 8, and again with 9.

 

[squirk]

I'm fine with expanding the horizon's. I'm not OK with pissing on what came before which they BOTH did with 7 and 8, and again with 9.

Speaking of pissing on what came before - I know I’ve said this earlier in the thread, but it bears repeating:

Johnson’s biggest - and arguably most unforgivable - sin was having Luke knowingly abandon the galaxy in the face of a rising threat from two extremely powerful dark-side Force users, and becoming a bitter old hermit.

Nobody wanted to see that.

You want to give Luke layers, complexity, moral failings, self-doubt, disillusionment with the Jedi Order? I’m all-in.

But he would not have done that.

 

[Shade88]

Speaking of pissing on what came before - I know I’ve said this earlier in the thread, but it bears repeating:

Johnson’s biggest - and arguably most unforgivable - sin was having Luke knowingly abandon the galaxy in the face of a rising threat from two extremely powerful dark-side Force users, and becoming a bitter old hermit.

Nobody wanted to see that.

You want to give Luke layers, complexity, moral failings, self-doubt, disillusionment with the Jedi Order? I’m all-in.

But he would not have done that.

I agree. Ultimately, I think if Luke had been written better, TLJ would've gone over better with fans. It still wouldn't have been perfect (Admiral Holdo vs Poe, Finn and Rose's pointless adventure), but it would've been better.

Honestly, I would have been cool if had Luke ended up becoming a Gray Jedi, like Jolee Bindo from KOTOR. He would've been a balance of both the light and dark sides of the Force, which would have been an interesting twist on the whole "bringing balance to the Force" prophecy.

 

[The Terminator]

It's this stuff -- the Sith and Jedi codes being too far in either direction (or having been taken too far) -- that lead me to believe that the Star Wars saga needs to begin to explore concepts of balance and what that means. In other words, instead of light and dark Jedi, we need gray Jedi. At least, that's what we need if the story is to remain fresh.

Something I liked about Kyle Katarn. He didn't subscribe to either side. Basically a "good guy", wielding a blue lightsaber and shooting lightning from his hands.

Kyle was originally the one who stole the plans for the original Death Star. In the Dark Forces game series. Which I still think is what should have happened in Rogue One.

 

[squirk]

I agree. Ultimately, I think if Luke had been written better, TLJ would've gone over better with fans. It still wouldn't have been perfect (Admiral Holdo vs Poe, Finn and Rose's pointless adventure), but it would've been better.

Honestly, I would have been cool if had Luke ended up becoming a Gray Jedi, like Jolee Bindo from KOTOR. He would've been a balance of both the light and dark sides of the Force, which would have been an interesting twist on the whole "bringing balance to the Force" prophecy.

I think TLJ is my favorite of the three, but not by a wide margin due to the Luke stuff. As you said, if RJ had handled Luke differently, TLJ would be my favorite by a country mile.

I know that they had to have Luke step aside so as not to overshadow Rey as the new hero of the franchise, so while killing him off was predictable, I understand it, and I like how he went out. If he'd been able to show up in person, he would have handed Kylo his ass, right?

But as you suggested, Luke as a Grey Jedi consigliere of sorts for Rey would have been just fine, too.

I liked Poe/Holdo, especially the Holdo Maneuver, though they should have added a bit about why people cannot or do not do these desperate hyperspace suicide jumps all the time. I think the (new) EU material stated that she had to time the jump so that she intersected with the Supremacy at precisely the right moment. Too soon, and she'd just ram it, which would cause some damage to the Supremacy itself, but nothing catastrophic, and nothing that would affect the other capital ships. Too late, and she might already enter hyperspace and not have any effect at all. The only way she was able time it that perfectly and that quickly was because she was Force-sensitive. Or something like that?

And while I really liked Rose and recognize that RJ had to give she and Finn something to do, I 100% agree that the Canto Bight subplot was a complete waste of time. Their efforts weren't just pointless; they actually made things ten times worse.

 

[HeartBlade]

I think TLJ is my favorite of the three, but not by a wide margin due to the Luke stuff. As you said, if RJ had handled Luke differently, TLJ would be my favorite by a country mile.

I know that they had to have Luke step aside so as not to overshadow Rey as the new hero of the franchise, so while killing him off was predictable, I understand it, and I like how he went out. If he'd been able to show up in person, he would have handed Kylo his ass, right?

But as you suggested, Luke as a Grey Jedi consigliere of sorts for Rey would have been just fine, too.

I liked Poe/Holdo, especially the Holdo Maneuver, though they should have added a bit about why people cannot or do not do these desperate hyperspace suicide jumps all the time. I think the (new) EU material stated that she had to time the jump so that she intersected with the Supremacy at precisely the right moment. Too soon, and she'd just ram it, which would cause some damage to the Supremacy itself, but nothing catastrophic, and nothing that would affect the other capital ships. Too late, and she might already enter hyperspace and not have any effect at all. The only way she was able time it that perfectly and that quickly was because she was Force-sensitive. Or something like that?

And while I really liked Rose and recognize that RJ had to give she and Finn something to do, I 100% agree that the Canto Bight subplot was a complete waste of time. Their efforts weren't just pointless; they actually made things ten times worse.

I think TLJ has the most potentially interesting ideas but was the one that killed the ST. I really don’t like the ST because it comes off as a money grab, not a story that needed to be told and also destroys the meaning of the previous movies by coming into existence.

I completely disagree that Luke needed to be killed for Rey to make an impact. If they wanted Palpatine to come back, Luke should have been the one to fight and bring him to an end for always tormenting his family.The connection and rivalry is much more prevalent and would be a good nod back to RotJ.

there would be much more tension and an interesting battle if Rey then just focused on Kylo Ren (although Kylo needed to be much stronger). It would challenge Rey and be the culmination of 3 movies of constant rivalry between Rey and Kylo, something that was missing in the previous trilogies.

no matter how powerful Luke or Rey is, they are still one individual and can’t be everywhere at once. For TLJ, you could have had Luke protect the rear while the Alliance retreated and have Rey face off with Kylo who was waiting for them at the exit for example.

I disagree with Rose’s value as well. She really doesn’t add anything to the plot and results in overflowing an already big cast as is, resulting in less character development. Rose ends up a soapbox on why war is bad and makes the fat cats rich and an unrequited love interest which is a disservice to the character if you are adding her in.

 

[squirk]

I think TLJ has the most potentially interesting ideas but was the one that killed the ST. I really don’t like the ST because it comes off as a money grab, not a story that needed to be told and also destroys the meaning of the previous movies by coming into existence.

I completely disagree that Luke needed to be killed for Rey to make an impact. If they wanted Palpatine to come back, Luke should have been the one to fight and bring him to an end for always tormenting his family.The connection and rivalry is much more prevalent and would be a good nod back to RotJ.

there would be much more tension and an interesting battle if Rey then just focused on Kylo Ren (although Kylo needed to be much stronger). It would challenge Rey and be the culmination of 3 movies of constant rivalry between Rey and Kylo, something that was missing in the previous trilogies.

no matter how powerful Luke or Rey is, they are still one individual and can’t be everywhere at once. For TLJ, you could have had Luke protect the rear while the Alliance retreated and have Rey face off with Kylo who was waiting for them at the exit for example.

I disagree with Rose’s value as well. She really doesn’t add anything to the plot and results in overflowing an already big cast as is, resulting in less character development. Rose ends up a soapbox on why war is bad and makes the fat cats rich and an unrequited love interest which is a disservice to the character if you are adding her in.

Well, I didn’t say Luke needed to be killed; I said he needed to be “bumped” because this trilogy is Rey’s story, not his. I just recognized that killing him off was an understandable, if predictable (since we already killed off Han), way of doing it.

I do like your idea that Luke should have beat Palpatine because it’s “unfinished business” for the Skywalker family. But having Luke be the one to defeat the trilogy’s Big Bad would take the spotlight off of Rey. Maybe it shouldn’t have been Palpatine at all. Or as you said, maybe Kylo could have been the bigger threat, so his fight with Rey was still at the top of the fight card.

But yes, Luke living would have been preferable for me. An advisor to Rey as she took point in planning for the future at the end. Just as Leia handed the reins to Poe.

As for Rose, maybe it’s more accurate to say I liked what Kelly Marie Tran did with the material she was given. It felt to me like RJ was trying to set her up as reflecting the Everyman (Everyperson?) “soul” of the Resistance. I guess the moralizing didn’t bug me as much because I wasn’t invested in the whole Canto Bight thing in the first place.

I agree that it’s stupid to invest that much time and effort into introducing a new character into an overstuffed cast and then do nothing with her, and that goes back to my point about the ST feeling disjointed. One filmmaker introduces a big idea, the next filmmaker completely ash-cans it.

So many things in the ST were “tacked on” and/or poorly retconned at different times by different people, it doesn't feel coherent. It’s like a Frankenstein’s monster of a blockbuster trilogy.

As you said, at least with the PT, you knew GL had a singularly overarching story that he really wanted to tell. Poor screenwriting and questionable acting choices aside, the PT feels far more thematically clear and consistent.

 

[sztriki]

Something I liked about Kyle Katarn. He didn't subscribe to either side. Basically a "good guy", wielding a blue lightsaber and shooting lightning from his hands.

Kyle was originally the one who stole the plans for the original Death Star. In the Dark Forces game series. Which I still think is what should have happened in Rogue One.

I actually said that to a mate that it would be so funny if R1 was just the first level of Dark Forces gameplay and after 5 mins everybode just went home...

EDIT and more on topic:
I think the biggest mistake of the ST is not utilizing the characters enough. TFA was what it was but there was a lot to springboard from in terms of taking the characters in interesting directions. Then in TLJ almost everyone is a different character. Finn's natural direction of character development could have been the fact that he stood up to the evil regime at the end of TFA, how does it reflect on his old First Order comrades, are there more like him, etc. Plus his injury could have been developed into something interesting.
Poe...well, it's been talked to death. I never got the feeling in TFA that he was a bull headed reckless moron who just wants to blow things up. When he crashes the TIE on Jakku the first thing he does is report back to HQ instead of going rogue and trying to find BB8 or Finn. By the book.
Kylo was interesting, not sure there was a lot left to play with him at the end of TLJ though.
Rey...well, she at least had some themes but I dunno...I get the theme of failure but she doesn't seem to get much out of it...
I'm gonna say it, TLJ spends waaaaay too much time on Luke. As much as I love Mark Hamill and his performance (not the character in TLJ itself) spending that much time on him and going nowhere did not allow the new guys to develop organically and in an interesting way. Dagobah was a place where Luke is developed and expanded. Not Yoda...
Then TROS just hits a reset button on tons of stuff again while basically nullifying Finn and Poe while lot of new change stuff came right out of left field.
Shame. Corporate moneygrab, committee or whatever, there was potential in this and it just got muddled.
I just watched Jenny Nicholson's video on Colin Trevorrow's Ep9 script...I don't know if it's comforting to know that nobody had any interesting or satisfying ways of wrapping up this trilogy. If you want some hysterical stuff check her video on the Alan Dean Foster treatment, my god...
The only one who I think had a decent fanfic idea (and I'm not into fancfic) was Thor Skywalker with his Ep8 treatment. He took quite an amount of the kernels from TFA and managed to develop them organically even if it's not a perfect story.

 

[squirk]

I actually said that to a mate that it would be so funny if R1 was just the first level of Dark Forces gameplay and after 5 mins everybode just went home...

EDIT and more on topic:
I think the biggest mistake of the ST is not utilizing the characters enough. TFA was what it was but there was a lot to springboard from in terms of taking the characters in interesting directions. Then in TLJ almost everyone is a different character. Finn's natural direction of character development could have been the fact that he stood up to the evil regime at the end of TFA, how does it reflect on his old First Order comrades, are there more like him, etc. Plus his injury could have been developed into something interesting.
Poe...well, it's been talked to death. I never got the feeling in TFA that he was a bull headed reckless moron who just wants to blow things up. When he crashes the TIE on Jakku the first thing he does is report back to HQ instead of going rogue and trying to find BB8 or Finn. By the book.
Kylo was interesting, not sure there was a lot left to play with him at the end of TLJ though.
Rey...well, she at least had some themes but I dunno...I get the theme of failure but she doesn't seem to get much out of it...
I'm gonna say it, TLJ spends waaaaay too much time on Luke. As much as I love Mark Hamill and his performance (not the character in TLJ itself) spending that much time on him and going nowhere did not allow the new guys to develop organically and in an interesting way. Dagobah was a place where Luke is developed and expanded. Not Yoda...
Then TROS just hits a reset button on tons of stuff again while basically nullifying Finn and Poe while lot of new change stuff came right out of left field.
Shame. Corporate moneygrab, committee or whatever, there was potential in this and it just got muddled.
I just watched Jenny Nicholson's video on Colin Trevorrow's Ep9 script...I don't know if it's comforting to know that nobody had any interesting or satisfying ways of wrapping up this trilogy. If you want some hysterical stuff check her video on the Alan Dean Foster treatment, my god...
The only one who I think had a decent fanfic idea (and I'm not into fancfic) was Thor Skywalker with his Ep8 treatment. He took quite an amount of the kernels from TFA and managed to develop them organically even if it's not a perfect story.

I think all those things you mention are a byproduct of Disney/LFL literally "making it up as they go".

 

[cboath]

Speaking of pissing on what came before - I know I’ve said this earlier in the thread, but it bears repeating:

Johnson’s biggest - and arguably most unforgivable - sin was having Luke knowingly abandon the galaxy in the face of a rising threat from two extremely powerful dark-side Force users, and becoming a bitter old hermit.

Nobody wanted to see that.

You want to give Luke layers, complexity, moral failings, self-doubt, disillusionment with the Jedi Order? I’m all-in.

But he would not have done that.

You can find posts all over where i've said the exact same thing

 

[sztriki]

Kinda random but can I just say how much I hate that you can just deflect force lightning by simply holding a lightsaber in front of you...? I know it's a prequel thing but mleh...I also have to say I'm probably the only one who was glad that there wasn't an actual parade of forceghosts at the end, less in your face fanservice and the main character gets to have her victory and proper agency.

 

[squirk]

I also have to say I'm probably the only one who was glad that there wasn't an actual parade of forceghosts at the end, less in your face fanservice and the main character gets to have her victory and proper agency.

I agree with you; I didn't need to see them. I also agree that it was way too fan-service-y in that the Jedi who spoke were all Jedi that we were supposed to recognize, even though Rey didn't know most of them from a hole in the ground.

 

[sztriki]

I agree with you; I didn't need to see them. I also agree that it was way too fan-service-y in that the Jedi who spoke were all Jedi that we were supposed to recognize, even though Rey didn't know most of them from a hole in the ground.

I was thinking it was the same with the Han Solo scene. It was a cool and emotional scene but it was for the audience. I understand externalization as a technique but the dialogue was not between "two characters", not even one character representing his own thoughts but a scene specifically for the audience. I mean how on earth did Kylo know the I love you/I know schtick was a thing or did Han always pull that? It's typical JJ, much like the Khan namedropping in Into the Wrath of Khan.

 

[squirk]

I mean how on earth did Kylo know the I love you/I know schtick was a thing or did Han always pull that? It's typical JJ, much like the Khan namedropping in Into the Wrath of Khan.

Until you said that, I never thought of Han's "I know" in that scene to be a call-back to his "I know" of ESB.

I always thought of ROTS's "I know" as Ben is struggling to find the words to say, and "Han" is helping him out, saying "I know you're sorry. You don't have to say it."

But what you're saying makes sense.

 

[cboath]

That line is so a part of the character that it's impossible to think he didn't say stuff like that throughout ben's childhood/teens/etc.

As far as it being Rey's victory....eh....it's a weak one frankly. How is the ultimate payoff to a trilogy defeating someone you didn't even know was the actual bad guy for nearly 70% of the saga? I don't think having the ghosts show up makes it any worse or better frankly. It was actually EVERYONE's fight to defeat the emperor, not just hers. It was a defining time of their lives, for a lot of them, substantially moreso than Rey. The amount of time of her life she even knew there was an emperor to defeat is the time (whatever it was) that encompassed TRoS.

 

[squirk]

That line is so a part of the character that it's impossible to think he didn't say stuff like that throughout ben's childhood/teens/etc.

Yeah, I was just thinking the same thing.

As far as it being Rey's victory....eh....it's a weak one frankly. How is the ultimate payoff to a trilogy defeating someone you didn't even know was the actual bad guy for nearly 70% of the saga? I don't think having the ghosts show up makes it any worse or better frankly. It was actually EVERYONE's fight to defeat the emperor, not just hers. It was a defining time of their lives, for a lot of them, substantially moreso than Rey. The amount of time of her life she even knew there was an emperor to defeat is the time (whatever it was) that encompassed TRoS.

Well, yes, everyone needs to fight against Palpatine, but "hero journey" stories like these (versus, say, a film like R1) are plotted with the central hero defeating the central villain.

But you're right. They should have let Palpatine's ultimate defeat rest with Luke and, more importantly, Anakin in ROTJ. If they *had* to bring him back for TROS, it should have been Luke to take him down for good. Rey didn't have any skin in that game.

And I think that is another example of fan-service and making things up as you go. Palpatine wasn't even in the Trevorrow script at all; he was never part of an overall storyline for the trilogy because there never was an overall storyline for the trilogy.