Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker (Post-release)

[Inquisitor Peregrinus]

Dan, as always...

A couple particular points:

What I would far, far prefer is for Star Wars to step away from the "traditional" iconography that has ensnared the EU, fan films, and especially the Sequel Trilogy, leading to a seemingly endless reiteration of the same basic stories over and over again. DO SOMETHING NEW, DAMMIT. I don't need to see Rebellion 3.0/Empire 3.0. The First Order, the Final Order, the Just Kidding I Have One More Order, etc., etc. Star Wars is -- or should be -- about something more than just Jedi vs. Sith and faceless badguys in white and black (and now red!) armor.

It's why I like to look to actual history for rough inspiration. In addition to feudal Japan, there's also how much of George's notes that seems to have gome out of bored high school or college ancient-history lectures. The parallels of the Roman Republic, the Punic Wars, Julius rising for First Citizen and receiving the Imperator (and then his adoptive son becoming the first proper Emperor and transitioning Republic to Empire)... Tell me that doesn't live in the early drafts of George's Old Republic, Clone Wars, Palpatine maneuvering to become President of the Senate before declaring himself Emperor, and then setting out to consolidate Roman Imperial rule throughout Europa the galaxy.

There's a lot the EU got right, as I said, including these larger strokes, but I'm getting ahead of myself...

I never read the Legacy stuff, but that sounds...bonkers. Was that were "Cade Skywalker" was running around fighting new Sith or something?

Yup. 130 years after the films. Cade was Luke's great- or great-great-grandson. It's not explicit, IIRC. But yeah -- there was a guy who decided Palpatine did it all wrong and basically formed himself a Sith commune or ashram (with himself in charge, of course), and they managed to take over the corrupt Galactic Alliance (as the New Republic had evolved into). Meanwhile the Imperial Remnant had evolved into the Second Galactic Empire, but was working from the Rim in, rather than the Core out -- and was mostly fine holding its territory against Sith-driven Alliance incursions rather than being expansionist.

That's sorta where a lot of the EU material is relevant -- after Palpatine's death, various sector Moffs and Grand Admirals and other high-ranking Imperials all decided they were best suited to inherit the throne. Several killed each other off. Some were taken out by New Republic forces as they presented legitimate enough threat. Daala wiped out most of the rest. Then she left Pellaeon nominally in charge of the Council of Moffs of the Imperial Remnant. And all of them were wiped out by Daala after they backstabbed Pellaeon when Jacen Solo went Dark Side and stuff happened. Basically I'm glossing over a lot, but all the unstable, power-hungry Imperial elements kept either weeding themselves out or getting full enough of themselves to get taken out by external forces until some strong, decent people who'd believed the Empire's PR stepped up and took over the leadership.

Legacy is actually a pretty darn good story -- that now can absolutely not happen. At least, not that way.

I dunno. It doesn't really matter to me. I stopped reading the EU stuff around when the Black Fleet Crisis came out.

I don't blame you -- I almost did then, too. Only good part of it, for me, was the return of Cindel Towani.

Zahn's trilogy was great and felt like the real deal, but most things outside of that were just goofy.

I wasn't a huge fan of the Thrawn Trilogy, either. Bits of it I like, but none of the central characters sounded right.

I think you get more mileage out of West End Games sourcebooks, personally.

I don't know if I'd say more. A lot of the KOTOR stuff very much stands up. But definitely a lot. I have "Fragments From the Rim" next to me right now, actually.

Star Wars films generally start in media res in two ways [...] the Jedi delegation approaching Naboo, etc., etc. [That's] middle of the action. Something's already happening as soon as you pop in, and it's usually told visually, at least initially.

Which is one of my problems with TPM. It's Episode One! We shouldn't be coming into the middle of anything. This is supposed to be establishing the setting.

Setting us in the middle of the story bereft of any bearings [...] worked in Star Wars, because we knew nothing about the universe anyway. As the first film, literally everything is new, so in some ways, it's easier to accept that you don't know where you are or what's going on, and it will all be revealed (assuming the movie is good).

More to the point, it was part of the conceit of it being part of a serial that we were "supposed" to know about the people and events being referred to, having "seen" all of that in earlier (nonexistent) episodes. So there were hot-n-heavy allusions to things past without them being vital to comprehending what was going on now.

But, as you say, that can't fly -- with either the PT or the ST -- because no we do have that canon.

what the hell the Knights Who Say "Ren!" were (turns out.....nothing. They were nothing. Just something that sounded cool that was then ignored almost entirely)

OH MY GOD THE KNIGHTS OF REN. *siiiiiiiiiiiigh* There's a missed opportunity of the first caliber. They're terrifying. They're cool as hell...

...And you have to delve into the ancillary material to discover anything about them. This is how not to tell a compelling story. Put the Dark-Side-worshipping cannibal cult from the Unknown Regions in the damn movies as that. Don't make one or two oblique references and nothing more.

I'd quibble perhaps with Rogue One being absolutely necessary. I think it's nice to have, and it does a little to flesh out "How'd we end up here anyway" between ROTS and ANH, but even then, it's basically a snapshot. You don't see how the rebellion really grew, etc. But at least he soooorta sets things up for ANH. At the end of ROTS we see the Death Star under construction and Obi-Wan leaves Luke with Owen and Beru....and then we pick up with the plans for the Death Star being ferried away and landing exactly where a now-grown Luke is about to find them. It doesn't fill in enough of the gaps but at least it isn't leaving you saying "Wait, what the hell is all of this? What's this Empire? Who's this Darth Vader dude?"

This is true, but then, I like both the deleted "formation of the Rebel Alliance" scenes in ROTS and Rebels for showing how things got rolling. I treat Rogue One as an epilogue to Rebels more than anything, and am looking forward to the Cassian & K-2SO series. The buildup of those story elements -- rather than Obi-Wan riding off into the desert as Owen and Beru watch the suns set, as Luke would from that same spot years later -- give the sense of the galaxy being a powderkeg ready to blow that ANH dumps us into.

I think Rogue One helps for context, as does Rebels and Solo. I haven't seen Resistance yet, so I can't comment on it. But helping for context -- while certainly important -- isn't entirely necessary to tell a story in a somewhat new context. Once you get your bearings (which can be done through the narrative itself as information is gradually revealed), you can follow along. By contrast, I think Clone Wars is absolutely critical because it not only helps for context, but also truly establishes Anakin as a hero headed down a dark path, while developing and deepening the relationship between Anakin and Obi-Wan. In other words, instead of simply helping to establish setting and background, it directly serves the central narrative of the films (at least AOTC and ROTS).

That's a much longer discussion about both what should be told, and how to tell it. I feel we should have had glimpses of the direction of Anakin's thoughts, but kept the Vader reveal for Empire. *shrug* But that's not the movies we got. I do think the series is essential for paying off the previous/later (depending on one's point of view) references to the Clone Wars in the OT. Even if I feel let down by the length of the now-singular conflict. What I mean about Rogue One is more that now we see the Rebel "victory" against the Empire and the theft of the plans that the opening crawl of the following film references. In Empire, we have seen the Death Star being destroyed that the crawl refers to. In Jedi, the last thing we were left with in Empire was Luke saying he'd meet Lando on Tatooine, which the crawl says he has. That we have the interlude with the Death Star II first is just an artifact of George's foreshortening of the series by that point. I said "necessary" meaning "important to the narrative throughline implied by the material".

I think the EU was plenty scattershot. And where it wasn't being scattershot it was too often stuck in a fishbowl. I mean, as you say, there are good things from the EU (some of which have survived, e.g., Thrawn, adaptations of WEG sourcebook material, etc.), but there was also a whoooooole lotta trash taken out in the process.

Yup. I gotta agree with you there. But when I say not scattershot... Early on we had only a smattering of things. Splinter of the Mind's Eye was a direct sequel, when George didn't expect to do one. Brian Daley did a delve into the backstory of one of the main characters. As the rest of the OT came out, Marvel gave us some elements that would live on in the post-ROTJ EU -- Lord Shadowspawn, Shadow Troopers, Lumiya, Fenn Shysa, Boba Fett escaping from the sarlacc -- and we got a further delve into Lando's history with the Falcon. When the "Star Wars Renaissance" started in 1991, most of the books went forward from that point in time. There were some dips back into the OT period, but the general trend was ever forward. When the PT came along, the ancillary materials were roughly contemporaneous with those events... as well as continuing the post-ROTJ trajectory. Having gone through it all at the time, it really feels less all-over-the-place than the films and TV series.

That said, I'm glad all the additional material exists. I do find that it enriches my enjoyment of the films. Hell, the Clone Wars cartoon actually got me to a point where I now kinda sorta don't mind AOTC as a starting point (although I don't think it's necessary), and I genuinely enjoy ROTS. They still have their flaws as films, but as part of a larger story that includes the Clone Wars, they end up being a lot better.

I still watch AOTC as an Obi-Wan film. Anakin's mostly partvof my viewing from the Geonosis arena on. But yes.

 

[Halliwax]

Amazed this thread is still going

 

[Bigdaddy]

Amazed this thread is still going

 

[DARTH ANIBAL]

You know what, though? It's productive and civil. I'll allow it!

 

[jkno]

 

[squirk]

A "final, lasting triumph" would require freezing the universe in amber, never allowing it to change.

I enjoyed your post, but I'm not sure I agree with that bit. A final lasting triumph over the Sith wouldn't require the universe to freeze in amber. As I said in my original post, of course there will be crises and challenges - threats both internal and external - but the whiplash of galactic domination over the last 50+ years of galactic history was, frankly, starting to wear me down a little bit.

Another way to put it - when control flips this often in this short a period of time, the good guys' victories start to feel diminished. Like, it's great that they won and all, but when you know that the bad guys are just going to take over again in a few years, it gets harder to get invested in today's ephemeral victory.

What I would far, far prefer is for Star Wars to step away from the "traditional" iconography that has ensnared the EU, fan films, and especially the Sequel Trilogy, leading to a seemingly endless reiteration of the same basic stories over and over again. DO SOMETHING NEW, DAMMIT. I don't need to see Rebellion 3.0/Empire 3.0. The First Order, the Final Order, the Just Kidding I Have One More Order, etc., etc. Star Wars is -- or should be -- about something more than just Jedi vs. Sith and faceless badguys in white and black (and now red!) armor.

And right there is where I think we are on the same page. One of the underpinnings of Rey's story, through Luke's teachings, is that there doesn't have to be this oscillation between good and bad, dark and light. It doesn't have to be - in fact, shouldn't be - dichotomous. As far as the Force goes, she's bringing harmony to the table.

As for GOT - GRR has perhaps a different sensibility to fantasy storytelling that GL, but I walked away from that finale thinking that there was a final victory against the White Walkers - they wouldn't be popping up again in thirty years - and there would be a prolonged period of relative peace under Bran's rule. Will the World still be brutal and violent? Sure. But no supernatural existential threats to life as we know it for a good long while.

Both Rey and Bran are each bringing a wholly new and unique power/perspective to the forefront that changes the dynamics of the game. Both are bringing a paradigm shift that disrupts the cycle of what we've seen before. That should have a lasting impact.

TL;DR - allow your hero's "turning-point" victory some time to breathe, in direct proportion to the magnitude of the victory itself.

 

[HeartBlade]

I’m both happy and sad to see that this thread is still going and the top of the movies thread. Yes, corona has hurt movie viewership so Star Wars is still the biggest release accessible to the public but I also think it shows how strong the Star Wars legacy was compared to say Avengers Endgame.

I agree the good guys maintaining power does not necessarily mean a “win” with no conflicts, end of story. If anything, it’s the beginning of a bigger struggle.

the rebel alliance was really united for a single point, defeat the Empire and its reign of terror over the galaxy. Now that the Emperor and Vader are both killed, there is a huge power vaccum and no clear line of succession. We don’t know the rebel hierarchy or ideology but there would definately be differing ideologies of how the galaxy should be ruled post-palpatine. Hell, ideologies can also change over time, maybe most supporting reestablishing the republic but seeing the same mistakes occurring, a faction within the “good guys” fighting internally for a more consolidated power or more anarchy. Meanwhile, there are several former Empire commanders who create factions to oppose the “good guys”. The Empire must have favored certain plants/people during their rule and losing their benefits, they may support the factions to reestablish Empire rule.

I do think Jedi and the Force are essential aspects of Star Wars but the Jedi must play an incredibly difficult role in the galaxy, being “peacekeepers” when what is peaceful and good may not always be clear. Having a more mature Star Wars tackling such issues would be interesting. Rey could be a powerful Jedi but may not always make the right decisions and needs guidance from Luke who also struggles with morality, Kylo being another student who disagrees fundamentally with some of Luke’s principles and so goes on his own way rather than just be a “sith”.

technically, this was how the Sith were first created according to some lore (not sure if it still canon). Sith have their own mantra similar to the Jedi focusing on power for rule to establish order which they believe to be necessary for peace. Seeing from the Sith perceptive could be very interesting for a Star Wars side story.

basically, Star Wars doesn’t need to rely on just good guys vs bad guys. The franchise has been established and can tackle more morally ambiguous themes and discussions which better reflect the current climate and their more mature audience.

 

[The Terminator]

I really hope (probably a fools hope) that there is never content set after Episode IX. To give the Skywalker saga some weight and finality.

That was one thing I always disliked about Legends. The story continued so far past ROTJ, that it made that whole 1-6 feel like an insignificant blip. There was always a bigger Sith, or some other new threat bigger then Palpatine.

*Palpatine Saga

 

[squirk]

technically, this was how the Sith were first created according to some lore (not sure if it still canon). Sith have their own mantra similar to the Jedi focusing on power for rule to establish order which they believe to be necessary for peace. Seeing from the Sith perceptive could be very interesting for a Star Wars side story.

The Sith code (I think it’s canon because I think Maul recited it in “Clone Wars”) actually doesn’t focus on “order” as much as it does on “personal freedom” and “self-determination.”

It’s a very dim view of the universe - someone is always going to try and wield power over you, enslave you, put you in chains. Only by tapping into your passion can you find the power to break those chains. Through that, the Force will set you free.

Obviously, you can see how that can become a vicious circle or self-perpetuating cycle whereby the powerful oppress the weak until the weak find their own power and become oppressors themselves. Wash, rinse, repeat.

But I still think it’s interesting that the Sith code - in and of itself - really isn’t that bad of a concept. Self-empowerment. Self-determination. Freedom. Nothing in it says that you have to use your power to be cruel, merciless or evil, right? It’s just when people take the Code too far is where we run into trouble.

“The Old Republic” MMO does an excellent job of delving into this. A Sith is, in essence, the ultimate individual. Now, certainly, that individuality can only go so far; the individual must cede some self-interest if the society as a whole is going to function. The Sith must impose order because if everyone ran around acting 100% purely in their own self-interest, a society could not function. For lack of a better phrase, the need for order is a by-product of the Sith Code.

And Dave Filoni once made this excellent point about how the Jedi maybe went too far the other way (and I am paraphrasing here): they became so dispassionate that they became uncompassionate. It’s like they became so selfless, they almost forgot to care.

 

[Inquisitor Peregrinus]

Only problem with the Sith Code is when it bumps up against someone else's freedom and self-determination. To quote Oliver Wendell Holmes, "My right to swing my fist ends where the other man's nose begins." There are two ways forward there: Utter anarchic, survival of the strongest Wallace-ism... or civilization, where some of that absolute freedom is voluntarily ceded as social lubricant, via government. But that relies on said government working. The Republic, ultimately, didn't. Too many conflicting philosophies and viewpoints to actually get much done. Part of Anakin's fall.

 

[squirk]

Only problem with the Sith Code is when it bumps up against someone else's freedom and self-determination. To quote Oliver Wendell Holmes, "My right to swing my fist ends where the other man's nose begins." There are two ways forward there: Utter anarchic, survival of the strongest Wallace-ism... or civilization, where some of that absolute freedom is voluntarily ceded as social lubricant, via government. But that relies on said government working. The Republic, ultimately, didn't. Too many conflicting philosophies and viewpoints to actually get much done. Part of Anakin's fall.

Agreed. I’m not saying the Sith Code is the better of the two philosophies. As I said above, individualism has to have some limits in order for a society to function. And as you said, the Sith Code - or more to the point, how the Sith Code has been interpreted over millennia - has no express or implied restraint on how one should define “freedom”. So, the Sith have to impose order - by authoritarian military force - to keep that anarchy at bay.

But that gets me back to my original point - Rey is supposed to be the one who puts an end to that diametrical opposition between being too selfish and too selfless. Not saying it has to be an exact 50/50 split (though the Bendu on “Rebels” and the Prime Jedi mosaic on Ahch-To sure make it look and sound that way), but somewhere in the middle of the two extremes.

I like thinking that that idea really takes root under her watch and brings some measure of (again, relative) harmony to the galaxy for a good long while.

 

[Inquisitor Peregrinus]

Mmhm. "Eye for an eye and tooth for a tooth leads to a world where everyone is blind and toothless."

 

[Solo4114]

It's this stuff -- the Sith and Jedi codes being too far in either direction (or having been taken too far) -- that lead me to believe that the Star Wars saga needs to begin to explore concepts of balance and what that means. In other words, instead of light and dark Jedi, we need gray Jedi. At least, that's what we need if the story is to remain fresh.

 

[Joek3rr]

*Palpatine Saga

You can call it that. Just because their is a common enemy throught the series doesn't necessarily make it his Saga. But even if it was, who cares? The Lord of the Rings is Sauron, that whole story is named after the villian.

 

[HeartBlade]

completely agree. I do think the prequel Jedi were too focused on order and that was their undoing. Qui Gon focuses on the living force which was “unorthodox” to the point where he was prevented from becoming a Jedi Master. The Prequel Jedi order was too focused on maintaining the status quo and one route of thinking.

and yes the Sith in the films have been depicted as moustache twirling bad guys but as stated, their creed doesn’t necessitate that and technically we have only met 3 Sith (Maul, Palpatine, Vader).

If Star Wars were to continue after episode IX, I would want it to be a live action tv series. As the last force user, Rey has the chance to actually map out what the Jedi order will become. What their philosophy, stance, etc is and how they will address and actually bring peace to a galaxy with different thoughts and cultures where waving your lightsaber and force pushing everything won’t be the solution. It would be quite philosophical and for die hard fans and theorists but would have the makings of a great tv show if it’s pulled off successfully.

however, this is some would be a much more morally ambiguous series and I heavily doubt Disney could pull it off. It would require Rey to fail, be wrong, show various moral issues and ambiguities with no clear side being “right.” I doubt Hollywood in its current state could film such sort of work

 

[Solo4114]

completely agree. I do think the prequel Jedi were too focused on order and that was their undoing. Qui Gon focuses on the living force which was “unorthodox” to the point where he was prevented from becoming a Jedi Master. The Prequel Jedi order was too focused on maintaining the status quo and one route of thinking.

and yes the Sith in the films have been depicted as moustache twirling bad guys but as stated, their creed doesn’t necessitate that and technically we have only met 3 Sith (Maul, Palpatine, Vader).

If Star Wars were to continue after episode IX, I would want it to be a live action tv series. As the last force user, Rey has the chance to actually map out what the Jedi order will become. What their philosophy, stance, etc is and how they will address and actually bring peace to a galaxy with different thoughts and cultures where waving your lightsaber and force pushing everything won’t be the solution. It would be quite philosophical and for die hard fans and theorists but would have the makings of a great tv show if it’s pulled off successfully.

however, this is some would be a much more morally ambiguous series and I heavily doubt Disney could pull it off. It would require Rey to fail, be wrong, show various moral issues and ambiguities with no clear side being “right.” I doubt Hollywood in its current state could film such sort of work

Four, if you >ahem< count Dooku.

 

[HeartBlade]

true but I don’t know what to make of Dooku. He was pretty strictly a Jedi until a while, defecting to Sith after Qui Gon died.

 

[DARTH ANIBAL]

Four, if you >ahem< count Dooku.

Beat me to it, and it's scary how close that reply is to what I was going to say. GET OUT OF MY HEAD, DAN!

 

[squirk]

Four, if you >ahem< count Dooku.

::sad trombone::

As the last force user, Rey has the chance to actually map out what the Jedi order will become.

Rey was the last Jedi, but she was not the last Force user in the galaxy. There are at least two that we know of, right? Finn and the stableboy. I’d have to think there are many, many more out there.

It's this stuff -- the Sith and Jedi codes being too far in either direction (or having been taken too far) -- that lead me to believe that the Star Wars saga needs to begin to explore concepts of balance and what that means. In other words, instead of light and dark Jedi, we need gray Jedi. At least, that's what we need if the story is to remain fresh.

I think that's exactly what Rian Johnson was setting up in TLJ. Or at least trying to set up, before Abrams and Terrio ****-canned the whole idea.

 

[Psab keel]

Isn't that the title of Episode X?

Star Wars Episode X: The Last Force User from the adventures of Broom Boy and Jar Jar the wise