Star Wars: The Force Awakens (Pre-release)
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Re: Star Wars Episode VII
Yeah, I agree Dan. Ep1 was a very major stylistic departure, one which I actually really liked, I thought it was an interesting aesthetic and didn't get bogged down in any preconception if what a pre ANH universe "should" look like. And the CGI is definitely an artificial look.
Yeah, I agree Dan. Ep1 was a very major stylistic departure, one which I actually really liked, I thought it was an interesting aesthetic and didn't get bogged down in any preconception if what a pre ANH universe "should" look like. And the CGI is definitely an artificial look.
Solo4114
Master Member
Re: Star Wars Episode VII
Personally, I don't particularly like the Ep. 1 look, but I can't tell how much of taht is purely stylistic, and how much of that is association with an otherwise deeply unsatisfying movie. That said, had it been more models and less CGI, I think it would've at least looked more "real." I can also see an argument for a bit more diversity of design, particularly to highlight cultural influences across the galaxy. Naboo is apparently a society that pays attention to elegance, beauty, and the like, so it'd make sense that their starship design would follow suit. Since all the action focuses on what happens around Naboo, it'd make sense that the dominant themes visually are oriented around this. The droid army seems like more of a misstep to me. the basic grunts don't look like combat models (and certainly end up not being particularly capable). There's still some other ships that maintain similar design features to the OT, though -- the Republic ship from the very beginning, for example, looks like it fits with the rest of the PT and could segue into OT designs.
What I think is more flawed, though, is the sort of "high tech" nature of so much of the design throughout the film, from computers to the droids, to the ships. It all seems much more advanced, and as if the OT era has "forgotten" so much. But the problem with the PT in general is that, narratively, the films themselves don't really hint at why the decline happened. It's not really concerned with it. I suppose whether that's a good or bad thing depends on one's views of the PT in general, but whatever. I do think that the different visual style of TPM can be at least partially explained away as cultural differences, and I can at least respect the attempt to differentiate the culture portrayed from the rest of the stuff we've seen.
Personally, I don't particularly like the Ep. 1 look, but I can't tell how much of taht is purely stylistic, and how much of that is association with an otherwise deeply unsatisfying movie. That said, had it been more models and less CGI, I think it would've at least looked more "real." I can also see an argument for a bit more diversity of design, particularly to highlight cultural influences across the galaxy. Naboo is apparently a society that pays attention to elegance, beauty, and the like, so it'd make sense that their starship design would follow suit. Since all the action focuses on what happens around Naboo, it'd make sense that the dominant themes visually are oriented around this. The droid army seems like more of a misstep to me. the basic grunts don't look like combat models (and certainly end up not being particularly capable). There's still some other ships that maintain similar design features to the OT, though -- the Republic ship from the very beginning, for example, looks like it fits with the rest of the PT and could segue into OT designs.
What I think is more flawed, though, is the sort of "high tech" nature of so much of the design throughout the film, from computers to the droids, to the ships. It all seems much more advanced, and as if the OT era has "forgotten" so much. But the problem with the PT in general is that, narratively, the films themselves don't really hint at why the decline happened. It's not really concerned with it. I suppose whether that's a good or bad thing depends on one's views of the PT in general, but whatever. I do think that the different visual style of TPM can be at least partially explained away as cultural differences, and I can at least respect the attempt to differentiate the culture portrayed from the rest of the stuff we've seen.
Riceball
Master Member
Re: Star Wars Episode VII
I don't think that was intentional, I think it had more to do with the problems inherent in doing a sci-fi prequel decades after the original; what's high tech 10 - 20 years ago no longer looks high-tech now. The producers and design staff on Enterprise ran into the same problem when designing the bridge of the NX-01, how do you make things look like old tech without looking old and dated.
As far as the CG ships and stuff goes, I don't think that it's anything inherent in CG in general as much as the way it was done. I think that ILM has lost their touch and are no longer as good as they once were. I think that they're modeling department is still as good as ever but their comp dept. has really gone down and their digital comps that they do now are no better and may even be worse than the optical comps from back in the days of the OT. That's where they're lacking and it's a problem that I've noticed ILM has had since at least JP2.
I don't think that was intentional, I think it had more to do with the problems inherent in doing a sci-fi prequel decades after the original; what's high tech 10 - 20 years ago no longer looks high-tech now. The producers and design staff on Enterprise ran into the same problem when designing the bridge of the NX-01, how do you make things look like old tech without looking old and dated.
As far as the CG ships and stuff goes, I don't think that it's anything inherent in CG in general as much as the way it was done. I think that ILM has lost their touch and are no longer as good as they once were. I think that they're modeling department is still as good as ever but their comp dept. has really gone down and their digital comps that they do now are no better and may even be worse than the optical comps from back in the days of the OT. That's where they're lacking and it's a problem that I've noticed ILM has had since at least JP2.
Solo4114
Master Member
Re: Star Wars Episode VII
No argument there. It's a really difficult thing to do (and cuts in favor of saying "Don't bother, man."). While I still want my archival version of the OOT, that's one of the things I don't mind as much about some of the more minor "tech harmonizing" aspects of the SEs. For example, if they'd changed the displays on the cockpit screens in the Death Star run, it wouldn't bother me quite as much as, say, the Mos Eisley introduction. I've yet to watch them, but I hear the updated f/x on ST:TOS do a decent job of this. There's some stuff you just can't get around, though.
They could, however, have explained how resources were growing more scarce, or how the clone wars devastated heavy industry throughout the Republic, or how changing fashions led to far more focus on functional in the wake of the war than on the ornamental. But...they just didn't care that much, and I can see where that'd require a lot of effort for not as much payoff.
Yeah, I could see that being the case. Some CGI works fine. Other CGI looks...I dunno...off. It's more noticeable with organics, but even machines can look a little too "gleaming" or "clean" at times. I suppose some of it may be hubris. A model catches light however it catches light. But with CGI, you can light it with a "LOOK AT MEEEEEEE" quality. I guess if you spend all that time designing the thing, you want people to look at it...
No argument there. It's a really difficult thing to do (and cuts in favor of saying "Don't bother, man."). While I still want my archival version of the OOT, that's one of the things I don't mind as much about some of the more minor "tech harmonizing" aspects of the SEs. For example, if they'd changed the displays on the cockpit screens in the Death Star run, it wouldn't bother me quite as much as, say, the Mos Eisley introduction. I've yet to watch them, but I hear the updated f/x on ST:TOS do a decent job of this. There's some stuff you just can't get around, though.
They could, however, have explained how resources were growing more scarce, or how the clone wars devastated heavy industry throughout the Republic, or how changing fashions led to far more focus on functional in the wake of the war than on the ornamental. But...they just didn't care that much, and I can see where that'd require a lot of effort for not as much payoff.
Yeah, I could see that being the case. Some CGI works fine. Other CGI looks...I dunno...off. It's more noticeable with organics, but even machines can look a little too "gleaming" or "clean" at times. I suppose some of it may be hubris. A model catches light however it catches light. But with CGI, you can light it with a "LOOK AT MEEEEEEE" quality. I guess if you spend all that time designing the thing, you want people to look at it...
Riceball
Master Member
Re: Star Wars Episode VII
The same applies for physical models too, they need to be lit too, the only difference being that with CG you can probably go a lot crazier with the lighting than you ever could with physical models since you can only fit so many lights in a given room. Given the size of ILM there's really no reason for bad lighting since a studio that size should have a whole dept. that sets everything for render after the modeling is done and that would include lighting specialists who do nothing but setup the lighting in the scene. The same goes for their texturing and shading, they should have a dept. devoted to just that staffed by specialists who do nothing but create the textures and shaders for their models and people who specialize in applying them to the models.
The same applies for physical models too, they need to be lit too, the only difference being that with CG you can probably go a lot crazier with the lighting than you ever could with physical models since you can only fit so many lights in a given room. Given the size of ILM there's really no reason for bad lighting since a studio that size should have a whole dept. that sets everything for render after the modeling is done and that would include lighting specialists who do nothing but setup the lighting in the scene. The same goes for their texturing and shading, they should have a dept. devoted to just that staffed by specialists who do nothing but create the textures and shaders for their models and people who specialize in applying them to the models.
Lutso
Sr Member
Re: Star Wars Episode VII
You're totally right, but I feel obligated to point out the reason WHY that ship looks so appropriate is only because it was recycled/re-interpreted from McQuarrie designs. It's basically a mashup of the blockade runner and an unused prototype for the Falcon. This was done on request from Lucas who felt it was important to have strong ties to the OT - which I find interesting because he seems to forget that concept for the rest of the trilogy after the first 5 minutes of Ep. I.
Just thought I'd point that out.
I don't know about tech harmonizing as far as narrative is concerned, but the "updated" special fx on TOS are TERRIBLE. The CGI Enterprise looks waaaay cheesier than any plastic model ever could, no matter how bad it was. Just awful, awful stuff. And the title screens for each episode look terrible too. And they used Star Wars sound effects?
Sorry, the updated TOS is very touchy with me, almost as touchy as Star Wars. What is the sick fascination with constantly tweaking the two largest sci-fi franchises around? I don't get it.
You're totally right, but I feel obligated to point out the reason WHY that ship looks so appropriate is only because it was recycled/re-interpreted from McQuarrie designs. It's basically a mashup of the blockade runner and an unused prototype for the Falcon. This was done on request from Lucas who felt it was important to have strong ties to the OT - which I find interesting because he seems to forget that concept for the rest of the trilogy after the first 5 minutes of Ep. I.
Just thought I'd point that out.
I don't know about tech harmonizing as far as narrative is concerned, but the "updated" special fx on TOS are TERRIBLE. The CGI Enterprise looks waaaay cheesier than any plastic model ever could, no matter how bad it was. Just awful, awful stuff. And the title screens for each episode look terrible too. And they used Star Wars sound effects?
Sorry, the updated TOS is very touchy with me, almost as touchy as Star Wars. What is the sick fascination with constantly tweaking the two largest sci-fi franchises around? I don't get it.
jme3
Sr Member
Re: Star Wars Episode VII
I can at least say the updates to TOS were not ones that altered the context of the scene(s) that were modified; they were only "fixes" to the limitations of the graphics of the time. It's just an opinion, but I thought they were well done. But as you say, one can ignore them totally if they wish just by watching the originals.
I can at least say the updates to TOS were not ones that altered the context of the scene(s) that were modified; they were only "fixes" to the limitations of the graphics of the time. It's just an opinion, but I thought they were well done. But as you say, one can ignore them totally if they wish just by watching the originals.
Re: Star Wars Episode VII
That's my feeling on them as well. It's not great CG but I see it as CG the way it would have been done if they could have done it in the 60s. It works for me but if it doesn't for you there's still the originals available. No such luck so far as officially released Star Wars goes.
That's my feeling on them as well. It's not great CG but I see it as CG the way it would have been done if they could have done it in the 60s. It works for me but if it doesn't for you there's still the originals available. No such luck so far as officially released Star Wars goes.
jme3
Sr Member
jme3
Sr Member
Re: Star Wars Episode VII
^I'll second that. Nothing the prequels or special editions did can diminish the fantastic experience that is "Star Wars". If the prequels or the special editions were so bad, then whomever was offended by them can simply ignore them and keep the OOT close to heart. I think the prequels could have
been better, and there are parts of the special edition additions that I've thought were great, but neither GL, the prequels or the special editions have
raped my childhood by any stretch of the imagination. Star Wars is still awesome!
^I'll second that. Nothing the prequels or special editions did can diminish the fantastic experience that is "Star Wars". If the prequels or the special editions were so bad, then whomever was offended by them can simply ignore them and keep the OOT close to heart. I think the prequels could have
been better, and there are parts of the special edition additions that I've thought were great, but neither GL, the prequels or the special editions have
raped my childhood by any stretch of the imagination. Star Wars is still awesome!
rodneyfaile
Sr Member
Re: Star Wars Episode VII
What if I told you I had Doc Brown's Delorean, I have been to the future, and brought back a copy of Episode VII on Bluray? Interested in seeing it? Even though you know absolutely zero about it at this point? Not even one still pic, much less an actual preview? I bet most would say,yes! Doesn't sound like a dead property to me. I'm betting even the biggest prequel/special edition hater out there would be interested.
What if I told you I had Doc Brown's Delorean, I have been to the future, and brought back a copy of Episode VII on Bluray? Interested in seeing it? Even though you know absolutely zero about it at this point? Not even one still pic, much less an actual preview? I bet most would say,yes! Doesn't sound like a dead property to me. I'm betting even the biggest prequel/special edition hater out there would be interested.
jme3
Sr Member
Re: Star Wars Episode VII
There isn't a soul on this board that will not pay the ticket price to see Ep. VII...
There isn't a soul on this board that will not pay the ticket price to see Ep. VII...
DARTH SABER
Master Member
Re: Star Wars Episode VII
sorry, Doug Chang and Iain McCaig are among the top concept artists in the film industry.
oure under the assumptionthat chang and McCaig had free reign to create whatever they wanted. at the end of the day GL was the one mandating what the the style should look like.
sorry, Doug Chang and Iain McCaig are among the top concept artists in the film industry.
oure under the assumptionthat chang and McCaig had free reign to create whatever they wanted. at the end of the day GL was the one mandating what the the style should look like.
Jedi-72
Sr Member
Re: Star Wars Episode VII
I must respectfully disagree. I remember Chiang saying in interviews that when he saw Star Wars as a kid that the ships and things didn't look quite right to him and that this was his chance to make things look the way that he thought they should. THAT, I have a huge problem with because the visual of style of Star Wars, not the prequels, but Star Wars, was well established and beloved for very good reason....it was PERFECT. It didn't need improving. And, the aesthetic of the prequels rather proves that. Was there one, even one iconic design from the PT trilogy? Once iconic ship?
Chiang may be a talented artist, but his attitude toward "improving" something that did not need improving, and at which he failed, shows an arrogance and disrespect for the artist/s who defined the visual language and style of the OT. What's needed are people who understand that language and who can pick it up and continue to speak it fluently.
I must respectfully disagree. I remember Chiang saying in interviews that when he saw Star Wars as a kid that the ships and things didn't look quite right to him and that this was his chance to make things look the way that he thought they should. THAT, I have a huge problem with because the visual of style of Star Wars, not the prequels, but Star Wars, was well established and beloved for very good reason....it was PERFECT. It didn't need improving. And, the aesthetic of the prequels rather proves that. Was there one, even one iconic design from the PT trilogy? Once iconic ship?
Chiang may be a talented artist, but his attitude toward "improving" something that did not need improving, and at which he failed, shows an arrogance and disrespect for the artist/s who defined the visual language and style of the OT. What's needed are people who understand that language and who can pick it up and continue to speak it fluently.
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