Tan Djarka
Master Member
So the new EU is as bad/silly as the old EU?
Edit: Sorry, this was meant to respond to the previous post on Vader's saber.
Star Wars: The Force Awakens (Post-release)
- Thread starter Vivek
- Start date
So the new EU is as bad/silly as the old EU?
Edit: Sorry, this was meant to respond to the previous post on Vader's saber.
Solo4114
Master Member
I could've sworn that, in ESB, we actually see it get sucked out the air shaft when Luke almost falls out of Cloud City.
Then again, Rey's Cloud City vision may be where Luke's hand and/or sabre get retrieved.
Also, I'm surprised that nobody has yet posited the theory that Snoke is Evil Clone Luke. I mean, seeing as how they've come up with all manner of other cockamamie theories...
Riceball
Master Member
I've already said this once before, Snoke's real name is Smeagol, and I'll just leave it at that.
I actially was discussing this recently and confirmed with Pablo Hidalgo if the LucasFilm story group what you see falling is a piece of the weathervane Luke lands on. When you look down the shaft in Cloud City it's dark at the bottom, it's not open to the atmosphere, the implication is it has a physical bottom.
Solo4114
Master Member
Wow! All this time, I assumed that it was his hand and sabre! Good to know.
oota goota
Sr Member
yeah something new would be cool! I'm concerned that the next two films will follow ESB/ ROTJ too much with everyone taking one 'generational' step over. Luke is now Kenobi, Rey is now Luke, Kylo is Vader and Snook is the emperor or whatever. So Luke trains Rey, Kylo kills Luke, Rey has to confront Kylo to complete her training or something. PLease please don't let it be this
Yes, they are not Sith.
Solo4114
Master Member
If they were Sith, they'd call themselves "Sith." Also, there'd probably be only 2 of 'em. And Kylo Ren would be called Darth Kylo or something.
The Knights of Ren, I think, are probably a small group of warriors that use the Dark Side of the Force, but are organized in a fashion that sort of "mocks" the Jedi Order or whatever the structure of Luke's revived Order was. Basically, they're anti-Jedi, not Sith.
There are other fictional universes where some of this apparently happens. For example, in the Dragonlance series of books, you originally had this order of knights called the Knights of Solamnia. They were instrumental in defeating the evil dragons and beating the dark goddess who sought to enslave their world several times. Eventually, the dark goddess creates her own order called the Knights of Takhesis, who are loyal to her, but who use similar organizational structures, training methods, etc. as the Knights of Solamnia. So, they basically become the evil version of the good organization.
I'm guessing -- just guessing, mind you -- that the Knights of Ren are something along these lines.
I'd further speculate that the overall approach to the Force is going to become a lot more nuanced than just "Light Side/Dark Side" and never the twain shall meet. My sense is that the Light/Dark split is going to be revealed as more philosophical than absolute. The Force is just...the Force. It can be light, it can be dark, but it's all the Force. The Light/Dark discussion makes it sound like there are two Forces, almost, and that they are in opposition to each other. But that has more to do with the people who use it, and how they use it than it does with the nature of the Force itself.
For me, this ties back to the whole "Prophecy of restoring balance," where some interpreted the prophecy to mean that Anakin would destroy the Sith. Technically, he did. But he also sired Luke, who in turn may have sought to (or may yet seek to) "restore balance" by doing away with notions of the Force itself being light on one side, and dark on the other, and looking more to how a Force user interacts with it.
The way I see it, the Jedi approached the Force from the perspective that you could never ever touch the Dark Side, or get too close to it, and that you had to be devoid of emotion to most effectively and safely use the Force. Luke sort of demonstrated that was wrong when he used the force offensively (e.g. choking the guards at Jabba's palace, mind-tricking Bib Fortuna to let him in to the palace, etc.), and he also demonstrated that you could walk away from the dark path. I think that's proof that a good person can use what others might call "Dark Side" powers, provided that they are trying to remain good...but that this general attitude can all too easily lead to people doing great evil and claiming they're doing it for the right reasons. (See also, Kylo Ren.) And, ultimately, that'll be the conflict we see between Rey and Kylo.
The Knights of Ren, I think, are probably a small group of warriors that use the Dark Side of the Force, but are organized in a fashion that sort of "mocks" the Jedi Order or whatever the structure of Luke's revived Order was. Basically, they're anti-Jedi, not Sith.
There are other fictional universes where some of this apparently happens. For example, in the Dragonlance series of books, you originally had this order of knights called the Knights of Solamnia. They were instrumental in defeating the evil dragons and beating the dark goddess who sought to enslave their world several times. Eventually, the dark goddess creates her own order called the Knights of Takhesis, who are loyal to her, but who use similar organizational structures, training methods, etc. as the Knights of Solamnia. So, they basically become the evil version of the good organization.
I'm guessing -- just guessing, mind you -- that the Knights of Ren are something along these lines.
I'd further speculate that the overall approach to the Force is going to become a lot more nuanced than just "Light Side/Dark Side" and never the twain shall meet. My sense is that the Light/Dark split is going to be revealed as more philosophical than absolute. The Force is just...the Force. It can be light, it can be dark, but it's all the Force. The Light/Dark discussion makes it sound like there are two Forces, almost, and that they are in opposition to each other. But that has more to do with the people who use it, and how they use it than it does with the nature of the Force itself.
For me, this ties back to the whole "Prophecy of restoring balance," where some interpreted the prophecy to mean that Anakin would destroy the Sith. Technically, he did. But he also sired Luke, who in turn may have sought to (or may yet seek to) "restore balance" by doing away with notions of the Force itself being light on one side, and dark on the other, and looking more to how a Force user interacts with it.
The way I see it, the Jedi approached the Force from the perspective that you could never ever touch the Dark Side, or get too close to it, and that you had to be devoid of emotion to most effectively and safely use the Force. Luke sort of demonstrated that was wrong when he used the force offensively (e.g. choking the guards at Jabba's palace, mind-tricking Bib Fortuna to let him in to the palace, etc.), and he also demonstrated that you could walk away from the dark path. I think that's proof that a good person can use what others might call "Dark Side" powers, provided that they are trying to remain good...but that this general attitude can all too easily lead to people doing great evil and claiming they're doing it for the right reasons. (See also, Kylo Ren.) And, ultimately, that'll be the conflict we see between Rey and Kylo.
I guess what I'm saying is,more or less be,"grey" Jedi that feel the Jedi did more harm then good and wind up being less the big baddie and more of a "what if they're right" kind of thing.
Kinda would explain Luke taking off and finding a place to think for a long while......
Well there IS another bad guy for the next film so who knows?
*ETA*
Kinda also ties into what I've said before about the force itself trying to change things by wiping out both sides and now we've got two people going at it for distinctly different reasons.
Kinda would explain Luke taking off and finding a place to think for a long while......
Well there IS another bad guy for the next film so who knows?
*ETA*
Kinda also ties into what I've said before about the force itself trying to change things by wiping out both sides and now we've got two people going at it for distinctly different reasons.
Pablo's wrong.
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didnt they just have a article on makingstarwars that there is a extended force vision scene when rey touches the graflex? i read there was allot of stuff cut, including the graflex's travel and hand off from cloud city, and it showing ending up in Maz's possession
annanake
Sr Member
There was also an article about the music saying how they used it ( like in every other star wars movie) very specifically. mixing peoples themes together and reversing themes and using it to foreshadow things and how the new characters got there own new theme music . but apparently they used the Plagueis music from ROTS as Snokes theme by coincidence. Because snoke is NEW and not Sith, he is just a theme music thief. Again they could have used it to throw people off the trail ( really)but they did use it for a reason . they did not just run out of songs and go grab a copy of the ROTS soundtrack and randomly pop it in there !
but of course the fact that the guys who signed a nondisclosure agreement to reveal nothing saying that is not so proves it is not so .
but of course the fact that the guys who signed a nondisclosure agreement to reveal nothing saying that is not so proves it is not so .
The whole "they are not Sith" thing is fine if they actually turn out to be gray or something... But we kind of already knew they aren't.
They are dark side. The one we know just killed his own father because he was too conflicted by lingering goodness and wanted to be fully immersed in the dark.
In which case the "they are not Sith" argument becomes stupid. Of course they are. They changed the name, but act like them, apparently have the same goals, use the same kind of force, they even dress like them.
It's not like the Sith are going to sue them for copyright infringement. Or Snoke forgot to reapply for trademark extension.
In the movies up to now we've always been led to believe that sith is just an adjective anyway, not a proper name.
They are under new management who decides to call it something else. That's fine. Maybe he even runs things differently from the old boss. Doesn't really change that they are evil Jedi.
They are dark side. The one we know just killed his own father because he was too conflicted by lingering goodness and wanted to be fully immersed in the dark.
In which case the "they are not Sith" argument becomes stupid. Of course they are. They changed the name, but act like them, apparently have the same goals, use the same kind of force, they even dress like them.
It's not like the Sith are going to sue them for copyright infringement. Or Snoke forgot to reapply for trademark extension.
In the movies up to now we've always been led to believe that sith is just an adjective anyway, not a proper name.
They are under new management who decides to call it something else. That's fine. Maybe he even runs things differently from the old boss. Doesn't really change that they are evil Jedi.
annanake
Sr Member
The Sith were actually supposed to be a race of people that the dark Jedi conquered and therefore became there masters becoming Lords of the Sith .
My only point being it would be ridiculously strange that they are meticulous about the music and themes then just copy the Plagueis music for a new character makes no sense .
And the " proof" that snoke just showed up one day, unknown to all and took over the remanents of the empire is from people who are not allowed to reveal details of the movie. so of course they are not gonna admit anything whstelse could they do .
And as usual opinions that's why we're here
Confirmed you keep using that word I don't think it means what you think it means lol
My only point being it would be ridiculously strange that they are meticulous about the music and themes then just copy the Plagueis music for a new character makes no sense .
And the " proof" that snoke just showed up one day, unknown to all and took over the remanents of the empire is from people who are not allowed to reveal details of the movie. so of course they are not gonna admit anything whstelse could they do .
And as usual opinions that's why we're here
Confirmed you keep using that word I don't think it means what you think it means lol
Wolfsburg
Master Member
Well the prequels did a poor job of expressing this but I merely thought the "Sith" were a certain school of thought or "denomination" that delved into the dark side. The particulars of what they actually believe or what makes them unique, I don't know, but I never considered the dark side to be tied to the Sith exclusively. I think George took a cool sounding throwaway honorific of Vader's ("Dark Lord of the Sith") that was never actually mentioned in the OT and went a little too "Sith happy" in the PT. AFAIK, Palpatine was merely a powerful darksider in the OT and not a Sith until the PT.
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