Star Wars EU: True Canon vs. Legends Canon

[glunark]

Two Jedi in an entire galaxy.

Its not unreasonable that most people would not know about them.

Even back at their height, how many people would have regularly interacted with jedi?

I mean ninjas existed in our world, but how many people have met one?

 

[jcoffman99]

I think it makes sense the Emperor would take over the temple. It would be like a giant middle finger to the Jedi. Plus he could lock down all of their knowledge and systems.

 

[Redtogusa]

Two Jedi in an entire galaxy.

Its not unreasonable that most people would not know about them.

Even back at their height, how many people would have regularly interacted with jedi?

I mean ninjas existed in our world, but how many people have met one?

Ninjas have never had a 'Ninja Temple the size of the Vatican and been major figureheads in world politics. If they had they would defiantly be well remembered 20yrs after their existence.


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[glunark]

People believe what it says on the news, after 20 years of misinformation, and the disappearance of a few people who didn't buy into it, and most people probably believe the jedi were nothing more than conmen and sideshow magicians.

 

[tcsmit29]

I'm sorry I know I'm helping to derail this thread but this has always been a bugbear for me with regard to the prequels. "Hokey religions and ANCIENT weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side" spells it out pretty clearly. To me that always suggested that the Jedi had been long extinct.

I agree with you. But to keep it in perspective, the word ancient couldn't refer to any time older than Obi Wan's own age. Obi Wan was clearly a jedi and a public figure since he was a general in the clone wars. I don't know Obi Wans age during ANH but I guess 60-70?? Twenty years doesn't seem like very much. Maybe 30 to 35 years would be more realistic.:unsure

 

[Solo4114]

^ I suggested that elsewhere a couple months ago and got roundly shouted down. I totally agree. It should start with the Emperor's self-coronation as the most recent Zero-point.

--Jonah

The ABY classification in fandom makes sense because it predates the PT. Back when all you had was the OT and the EU materials, none of which touched on what would become the PT-era, referencing something like the Emperor's coronation would be meaningless, since it had no relation to the fixed points in time that we had to work with -- namely the films.

"Ten years before the fall of the Republic" wouldn't really tell you anything in relation to the films. It could've been 15 years before the films or 50. You'd have no idea.

Hmmm, interesting. I think we may have a canon contradiction because the glimpse of it we see in ROTJ shows it looking pretty much like it did in the PT, iirc.

Maybe this just means that the Special Editions are no longer canon.

I'd be FINE with that. Han shot first.

Jedi tended to operate near the centers of government and unrest. Han was a fringer most of his life. On the other hand, George borked the timeline irreparably with the Prequels. The Clone Wars originally were supposed to take place earlier, Anakin was supposed to be older, the Wars -- plural -- were a series of related conflicts spread out over decades, the rot was setting in in the core systems before they ended, the Jedi were already fading before Vader started hunting them down. By the time the Jedi were wiped out, no one really felt any connection to them any more. They'd been aloof for too long. They'd already become near-myths even when they were still around. Most people had already stopped believing in them while they were being run to ground and slaughtered. Popular opinion on the major "civilized" planets was that the Force was something that only some addled navel-gazers who used to use fancy plasma-swords would go on about, and they were long gone, weren't they? Only people really in the know... knew. Like Tarkin. Even if he had his own spin on things.

--Jonah

Yeah, I gotta say, the PT really kinda screwed up the bulk of the timeline. The Clone Wars cartoon has been pretty good, and so I largely forgive the PT for its failures...but it really, really could've been handled better, at least with respect to what we heard abotu that era before the PT existed.

Oh well. Nobody's gonna retcon the PT, so we're stuck with it.

 

[seelsa73]

The ABY classification in fandom makes sense because it predates the PT. Back when all you had was the OT and the EU materials...referencing something like the Emperor's coronation would be meaningless, since it had no relation to the fixed points in time that we had to work with ...

True. Now we do have those reference points though, so it wouldn't be hard to choose the formation of the Empire as a base for the dating system.

 

[Solo4114]

True. Now we do have those reference points though, so it wouldn't be hard to choose the formation of the Empire as a base for the dating system.

Right. I don't disagree with you on that. I'm just saying I think that's why the reference is what it is currently. I suppose that's also why you have people pushing back on reclassifying. It's what they're familiar with and what's always been the reference point. Me, I don't think it really matters one way or the other.

 

[Paul Andrew]

Also, who knows how long 'the new cannon' will be in effect. The movie will always be the movie and therefore always a solid frame to reference from (though in the current era of interminable reboots, who can say? I like to think EPIV is timeless and exempt from reboot, but I guess you never know).

 

[Bryancd]

Also, who knows how long 'the new cannon' will be in effect.

For whatever duration of time Disney retains ownership of LucasFilm.

 

[seelsa73]

Why would they bother changing/redefining canon at all if they didn't plan on keeping it around forever?

 

[Bryancd]

Why would they bother changing/redefining canon at all if they didn't plan on keeping it around forever?

Yeah, Disney vacated previous material to make room for their new creations. Current canon is going to be around a LONG time, far exceeding the previous EU.

 

[Solo4114]

Yeah, I wouldn't expect that Disney will reboot whatever canon they establish willy-nilly.

I realize that it's now popular to reboot this or that continuity every few years (in comics it seems to operate on a 5-year cycle), but with films like this, I think it'll be unlikely. Disney basically wanted to take over Star Wars and do with it what it wants. Towards that end, it rebooted the rather-haphazardly-maintained EU. And let's be honest. The EU was a MESS in terms of continuity. It often required mental leaps and acrobatics that would put Cirque du Soleil to shame in order to have it make perfect sense, and -- more to the point -- it completely hemmed in any future development that wasn't set, like, several generations into the future. Which, in turn, calls into question the value of the franchise, if you're gonna go all "The Next Generation" on it and push the timeline waaaay into the future just to avoid stepping on a hodgepodge of comic books, video games, and novels.

Disney's approach to the Star Wars universe purports to apply to all media, too. It's not like, say, the Marvel Cinematic Universe, which stands apart from the comics universe (or, indeed, other Marvel properties owned by rival companies like Sony and Fox). ALL Disney Star Wars stuff is canon. There's no "EU" in the sense of different levels of canon. Stuff on Rebels defines what happens in all other media, if those other media touch on the same stuff. Same goes for the novels. The novels can now define the movies. They couldn't, before. If that's the case, I just don't see Disney saying "Well, that was fun. Time to hit the reset button" and just totally rebooting the continuity.

 

[Bryancd]

And more, more to the point Disney will be HEAVILY investing in both merchandise, theme park attractions, and content built around a single cohesive canon they will maintain.

 

[Sluis Van Shipyards]

Plus in the new cannon the Jedi temple is built on ancient Sith ground.

I missed this too. What? Do they really think the Jedi would mistake that? Yoda knew about a little tiny spot that was corrupted by the Dark Side. So they're saying somehow the millions of Jedi have lived there and never sensed something was off? Not to mention they go through the trouble of recruiting BABIES so they aren't influenced by the Dark Side. No problem living on top of a Sith site though...

I think it makes sense the Emperor would take over the temple. It would be like a giant middle finger to the Jedi. Plus he could lock down all of their knowledge and systems.

I think it makes more sense of him keeping it as it was as a reminder and warning to anyone else who thinks about going against him. I don't know how covering it up with more building would do that. Also Palpatine strikes me as someone who would build a building ten times bigger, right next door, to show the Sith's power. Even though it sounds like the general public never knew they were Sith.

This is the problem with Disney declaring all of the new EU canon. You're going to have to keep the crap with the gold.

 

[jcoffman99]

I think the temple was built to guard the Sith area. I just read that part, but my book is at work so I can't check for sure.

 

[Inquisitor Peregrinus]

"BBY/ABY" evolved from the earlier "BSW/ASW" ("Before Star Wars" or "After Star Wars") as a real-world way of keeping track of when events occurred relative to the zero-point of the first film. By the time of the Prequels, the EU had exploded beyond the seven books and one comic series that were around at the time of the Original Trilogy. The role-playing game, video games, anthology collections, Heir to the Empire, Jedi Academy, Shadows of the Empire, Dark Empire, Tales of the Jedi... There was a lot more in the late '80s and early '90s. All the creators had gotten used to using BSW/ASW and having the first film be their dating referent. So they just shunted it across in-universe as the event at the climax of that film. It could just as easily have been BDA/ADA (Before the Destruction of Alderaan/After the Destruction of Alderaan) or something for Tarkin's death, or Obi-Wan's. Whatever.

Point is, like so many things in the EU, not enough thought was given to it at the time of its creation. One thing I'm actually hoping is that the Story Group goes back to primary sources, starting with the first film, chronologically, and going from there to determine stuff. Like reclassifying the troops on Leia's ship. They've been called "Rebel Fleet Troopers" for so long, by so many people, in so many places that it's not even noticed any more. But think about it. If they're wanting to pass as a consular ship ferrying an Imperial Senator, why in hell would they have uniformed Alliance soldiers aboard? That's dumb, and beyond idiocy for the Captain to keep maintaining it to Vader whilst wearing said uniform and gasping out his last. Scrub the conjectures and assumptions and go back to what we can glean from what's in the actual films. Then go from there.

My take on those troops is this: Their helmets are similar to the helmets the black-uniformed Imperial soldiers are wearing (Stormtrooper enlisted personnel in garrison uniform, BTW -- same process of deduction). Perhaps this is the time period's garrison uniform for the Imperial Senate Guards. And the Captain whatever the Judicial Fleet has become. Wors better than uniformed Rebels crewing that ship.

As I mentioned above, the original notion John Mollo had for the Imperial uniforms was the black ones were for the "SS" types -- the Stormtrooper armor is the battle dress, but the black uniforms are the garrison uniforms. And, like the Grand Army before them, and like the Marine Corps today, they maintain their own pilots and armored-vehicle operators independent of the Imperial Starfleet chain of command, but are subordinate to it. So the black-jumpsuited, Stormtrooper-faceplated TIE Fighter Pilots and black-uniformed, clamshell-helmeted Imperial Gunners are all Stormtroopers.

Or how about this solution to the change of ranks displayed from ANH to ESB -- Tagge and Motti are both listed as Generals in the credits. Tagge and Bast are seen consulting at the conference table, and sitting on the opposite side from Motti. There is clear animosity between Tagge and Motti. Bast is seen relaying the signal to fire to the gunners. So maybe Motti is the Army facility commander, Bast is the commander of the facility's/Tarkin's Stormtrooper garrison (Tarkin, incidentally, being what the TK represents), and Tagge having arrived on the Devastator as the General commanding the embarked Stormtroopers (hence "Dangerous to your Starfleet" spoken to an Army officer), a role Veers held on the Executor. So the single-row rank badges are all Army badges, and incorporate all three primary colors in displaying rank in various ways.

In ESB we saw the Navy mode of displaying rank, and Veers and the Snowtrooper Lieutenant adopting a two-row mode for ease of marking chain-of-command. Finer ranks than our contemporary O-1 to O-10 are used via non--visual means. All the plaques show are paired sets of low (one red and one blue), medium, (two of each), and high (three of each) line officers, embarked Commander of Ground Forces (four of each), and Fleet Command (six of each). Finer distinctions are unnecessary in verbal address (Ensign, Lieutenant, Captain, etc.), and each section aboard ship will have their own established internal heirarchy.

Naturally, each branch considers their mode of rank display superior to the other's.

Don't get me started on the ranks in ROTJ.

Yes, I can see you warming up the tar and sharpening the pitchforks. Hold off on your knee-jerk reactions, though, and stop to think about it all for a bit. Let go of the EU and open your mind. Through the Force, things you will see...

--Jonah

 

[Solo4114]

On the other hand, there's the issue in the award ceremony, where similarly dressed troops are all assembled and clapping for Luke, Han, and Chewie, so there's an argument to be made either way.

Personally, I think it's more like just a generic uniform. I mean, for the most part, many national military uniforms follow very similar patterns. So, maybe the guys on the ship were just "generic troopers" or "Alderaanian Senatorial Honor Guard" or something. Maybe the Alliance adopted this stuff because (A) It was available as surplus, (B) it was to honor the fallen at Alderaan, or (C) some reason we haven't heard yet. I mean, the uniforms could just be, like, Republic-era planetary garrison uniforms for the local, non-Grand Army/Clone Army troops. After the Imperial takeover, you probably had a crapload of surplus floating around, which would likely have found its way into the hands of the Alliance.

I mean, when you look at rebel groups throughout history, those that had anything approaching the kind of organization to have uniforms usually have military surplus, or uniforms that are like a generation older than whatever the regular army has.

 

[Riceball]

On the other hand, there's the issue in the award ceremony, where similarly dressed troops are all assembled and clapping for Luke, Han, and Chewie, so there's an argument to be made either way.

I was going to bring up that point myself and while it does complicate things a bit it doesn't completely mess up IP's theory. It's also possible that the blue clad troopers that we saw during the awards ceremony were just the remaining forces from Alderaan and after their home world blew up they were recruited into or absorbed into the ranks of the Rebellion. Of course this begs the question of how they would know to head to Yavin and why would you head there with the threat of the Death Star waiting to blow it up like Alderaan? The last place I'd want to send people is to my secret base that could be blown up by your enemy's super weapon at any time, esp. when they wouldn't be able to do anything but sit their and get blown up along with the rest of the Rebels on the planet, I'd instead send them elsewhere to set up another base and to continue the Rebellion in case the worst happens and you can't defeat the Death Star.

In the end we just don't see enough of these uniforms to get any idea of who or what they are, we only see them twice in ANH and never in Empire or Jedi where we see different field uniforms in each of them. Sadly, I don't think that we're likely to ever see anybody ever address this issue either although there is a some hope that we might see something during Rebels that might give us a better idea about those uniforms.

 

[Solo4114]

Yeah, this is why I like the "Clone-War-Era military surplus" argument. Sure, some guys might be Alderaanians, but maybe the Alderaanians -- who, according to Leia, have no weapons -- weren't even the ones guarding the ship, and they were just hired security with below-Imperial-milspec gear.

The simplest answer I have is that this was, at one time, the equivalent of the uniform for the Republic's "National Guard" units. As such, after the Empire took over, they were gradually phased out, or simply left to sit in lightly guarded warehouses, until they found their way into the hands of the Alliance as a stopgap measure until they could purchase or manufacture other, better armor. It would be a perfect explanation as to why all the Alliance troopers we see appear to have some kind of uniform that's visually very different from the Imperial troopers. Plus, that could then be used as, like, a visual cue for the Alliance -- they wear the uniform of the former local Republic garrisons, not the white armor of the Empire or the black, grey, or drab uniforms of the Imperial army and fleet. In a way, that's symbolic of what the Alliance is fighting for.