Star Trek Into Darkness (Pre-release)

[Bryancd]

Sorry but it will ALWAYS be compared to the Original, how can it not, it is after all Star Trek.

Now take the name off the first movie and I would still say it was a horrible waste of film.

As a veteran of oh, at least 200 Trek cons, and that is a very conservative number, the various Series and Movies of the franchise will always be compared with each other amongst the fans as JJ's films will be.

I used to hear all the arguments of how Next Gen was a pale succesor to TOS, how DS-9 was not even in the same Galaxy that the Great Bird intended, how Voyager was a cheap unimagintive re-hash of TNG, etc as finitum.

As long as it has Star Trek in the title it will always be compared to previous incarnations and rightly so

You missed my the part where I said "continually compare". Certainly it can, will, and should be evaluated as a STAR TREK film first and foremost. However the film was released in '09 and now we have a second iteration coming out in a few weeks. People are certainly free to continue to rehash the same argument as to why or why not this new version of the franchise is effective but at some point the films can and should stand on their own and evaluated as such.

 

[Apollo]

Nope did'nt miss that part.

Probably misunderstanding you though! :lol

Bottom line and I am sure you are in agreement with this is that JJ's films will be compared to prior installments of the Franchise correct?

Oh and Hows Chip?

You are not chasing him around with that new Flamegun are you!

You missed my the part where I said "continually compare". Certainly it can, will, and should be evaluated as a STAR TREK film first and foremost. However the film was released in '09 and now we have a second iteration coming out in a few weeks. People are certainly free to continue to rehash the same argument as to why or why not this new version of the franchise is effective but at some point the films can and should stand on their own and evaluated as such.

 

[jlee562]

I 100% agree.

There *are* things about the new Trek that annoy me, but the more and more I look at it, the less sense it makes to me to continually bash it for failing to adhere to the original series. The entire POINT of this new franchise was to re-create Trek with a different set of rules. No one is obligated to like the new take on it, but it really isn't fair to bash it for failing to be something it was never intended to be.

Indeed, I agree with this and Nicky's excellent post.

It seems to me the whole point of creating an alternate timeline is so that the characters don't have to be the exact same. Secondly, in response to those who say that the characters are in a way "too different" from their 'prime' counterparts, again, I think they're supposed to be. That was the point in showing them as cadets. I'm willing to bet that there is more character exposition in the second film which moves them closer to the 'prime' characters, and that there was some sort of long term plan there.

 

[Bryancd]

LOL! Chip is getting too old to chase but the flamegun was a hit on Halloween! :lol

What I am trying to say is we have all established that new Trek is different from old. I actually look at it as a complete reboot. And we can debate how well it compares to old Trek. But at some point, shouldn't we move from trying to figure out if it's different or the same and just ask is it any good? I think it is.

 

[Apollo]

Ok I Got ya now!

At the Trek Cons when I was dragged into the arguments I used just say "hey man it's all good IDIC ya Know! :lol

RoddenBerry was a Genius!!!

Give Chip a pat on the head for me!!

LOL! Chip is getting too old to chase but the flamegun was a hit on Halloween! :lol

What I am trying to say is we have all established that new Trek is different from old. I actually look at it as a complete reboot. And we can debate how well it compares to old Trek. But at some point, shouldn't we move from trying to figure out if it's different or the same and just ask is it any good? I think it is.

 

[NakedMoleRat]

I would have agreed with this.......If Leonard Nimoy had not been put in just to force the point that "This is actual real Star Trek!"

You can varnish a turd, but all you'll have is a shiny turd!

Now, If Nimoy had not been there, and it was just straight out called a reboot! No problem! But they insist that this is the same universe. And don't give me, alternate, parallel, etc. Spock said, "Whatever our destinies would have been, they have been altered now." Uhura than came back with, "An alternate time line?" (Or something like that) NO WHERE in the ENTIRE movie did they establish themselves as an alternate reality/universe, etc. Nero and Spock went back in time, in THEIR time and change it, therefore changing the future as it played out for each of them, but not yet for those currently in that time frame.

Show me one line of proof FROM THE MOVIE that this is what happened, not just a bunch of fan boy wanking trying to wrap their brain around how this 'could be!' and making an excuse so that they won't have to be so mad about it!

But other than that, and the stupid onslaught of LENS FLARES, I enjoyed the movie!

Just to restate my supporting position in the avalanche of negativity:

Many of the fan complaints, here and elsewhere, regarding the difference in Kirk's backstory (vs. TOS) pertain to his rapid promotion, brashness, delinquency, etc. To my eyes, this is the purposeful thematic backbone of the film. Trek '09's temporal setup allows the character of Kirk to explore both contemporary and timeless "coming-of-age" themes, specifically in regard to his relationship with his father. The internal conflict of the absent parent fuels Kirk, and is the ultimate thematic hurdle he must reconcile by the film's end.

Can he reclaim an abandoned destiny? Or a destiny that was taken from him as his father was? When Kirk meets Spock Prime, his first question is about his father. In crisis, he offers pertinent information gleaned only from his obsession with his father's disappearance. ("Lightning storm in space.") Led to isolating, rebellious behavior by his perceived slight, his experience with is future crew allows him to transcend his own inner demons and become the man he was meant to be.

Does the film leave him as that man? No. It was a first step. A glimpse. I loved the glimpse, and I love the dramatic structure from which it was experienced. Kirk's journey is an inverse parallel to Spock's and it is only together they can reconcile their individual internal struggles.

Why didn't this land with many Trek fans? Aside from the obvious, it came to me when I was analyzing The Original Series: Trek fans seem to be used to perceiving the stories of Trek in a dialogue-based fashion. Their pallet has been taught, over decades of series, to derive thematic content through almost exclusively textual means. Clearly there are diversions, but on the whole, most Trek installments expound on the theme in some form of dialogue acknowledgment.

Trek '09 simply doesn't deal with thematic issues in the way fans are accustomed. There's very little (read: almost none) recap or blatant explanation of theme in the movie. It is a purely cinematic experience. It is visual storytelling. The character's arcs, while not mentioned outright, are implied through the actions of the characters in the face of the opposition depicted. It is the choices made by the filmmakers out of which a theme can be derived, not dialogue.

This fundamental storytelling difference is alienating certain viewers, and delighting others. It doesn't boil down to the presence of action, or the recasting of actors, because beyond all that, the "drama-and-character-that-converge-to-imply-theme" of Trek is still there.

TL;DR : Not all Trek fans hate the new movie. And that doesn't make them mindless sheep.

 

[Jeyl]

I've always been critical about the last film for the opposite reasons why so many fan bash it. Not that I don't agree with their complaints, I just think that what JJ does to emulate the original series are the wrong things to emulate.

Star Trek has to be sexy. That’s in keeping with the original spirit of the series. In the 1960s they were limited because of the time, but so much was insinuated.

I disagree. Not that sexy things in Star Trek is a bad thing, but on the fact that Star Trek HAS TO BE SEXY. While some do consider sexiness helps give Star Trek a 'visual' identity when compared to other shows, it by no means should make or break the story or sacrifice any other sense of Star Trek's unique style. Like Seven from Voyager. Despite wearing that skin tight outfit, do you really think any of the show's scripts that deals with her character emphasizes on her skin tight uniform? I don't think so because nobody ever really notes how she's not wearing a uniform (Which by the way I think she looks way more attractive in). Basically the sexiness of the show doesn't play a major factor to the story or it's characters. Seven could be played by an actress who doesn't rank on any "sexiest women" list and still pull that role off. That unfortunately isn't how JJ Abrams sees his characters.

Part of the fun of our first movie was playing with the idea that Uhura and Spock were a couple. This movie takes that further and asks how that’s possible. Why would she be interested in that kind of guy, and why would she put up with him? It’s obvious what he would like about her. I mean, it’s fu***** Zoe Saldana.

Yes. That's JJ Abrams saying that Spock basically loves Uhura pretty much for her looks and that's to be expected. Since their relationship came out of nowhere and their chemistry had next to zero substance, I'm not surprised that was the mindset of everyone on the high court. Now if he's talking about Zoe Saldana herself as a nice, caring and intelligent person, I understand. But unfortunately, this isn't Zoe Saldana playing herself in Star Trek, so who she as a real person should have no relevance in describing her character.

Yeah, I think Star Trek did ok when it didn't have to be sexy.

 

[Jet Beetle]

Now, If Nimoy had not been there, and it was just straight out called a reboot! No problem! But they insist that this is the same universe. And don't give me, alternate, parallel, etc. Spock said, "Whatever our destinies would have been, they have been altered now." Uhura than came back with, "An alternate time line?" (Or something like that) NO WHERE in the ENTIRE movie did they establish themselves as an alternate reality/universe, etc. Nero and Spock went back in time, in THEIR time and change it, therefore changing the future as it played out for each of them, but not yet for those currently in that time frame.

I don't mean to nitpick - but I believe Patton Oswald has cemented the term "Time Ribbon" when universes collide = we should respect that.

And Kirk and Nero are perfect examples on how lots of people were effected by their journey against the clock. Kirk's dad, Kirk, his mother, everyone on Vulcan - or are you saying those events are now in the one and only universe? if that be the case - wouldn't old Spock have known exactly how this mission ends and simply forgotten everything about where he came from -- Nero too for that matter. He would have arrived in the past and said "What are we doing here?"
I was watching a NG episode the other day and someone referred to Romulas as if it was still there - so... ah crap this is all too much. I have a feeling JJ is going to be bagged and tagged one day, shoved back in time where a LOOPER will be waiting for him.

 

[DARTH SABER]

I would have agreed with this.......If Leonard Nimoy had not been put in just to force the point that "This is actual real Star Trek!"

You can varnish a turd, but all you'll have is a shiny turd!

Now, If Nimoy had not been there, and it was just straight out called a reboot! No problem! But they insist that this is the same universe. And don't give me, alternate, parallel, etc. Spock said, "Whatever our destinies would have been, they have been altered now." Uhura than came back with, "An alternate time line?" (Or something like that) NO WHERE in the ENTIRE movie did they establish themselves as an alternate reality/universe, etc. Nero and Spock went back in time, in THEIR time and change it, therefore changing the future as it played out for each of them, but not yet for those currently in that time frame.

Show me one line of proof FROM THE MOVIE that this is what happened, not just a bunch of fan boy wanking trying to wrap their brain around how this 'could be!' and making an excuse so that they won't have to be so mad about it!

But other than that, and the stupid onslaught of LENS FLARES, I enjoyed the movie!

So you want a quote from the movie that says its an alternate reality, but yet you're exempting the line in the movie where Spock and Uhura say its an alternate reality? LOL too funny.

 

[Jeyl]

So you want a quote from the movie that says its an alternate reality, but yet you're exempting the line in the movie where Spock and Uhura say its an alternate reality? LOL too funny.

To be fair, the movie itself doesn't know how it wants to depict it's alternate reality thing anyways. If this is indeed an alternate reality, why does Prime Spock refer to this reality's Vulcan as his home? Shouldn't "his" Vulcan be just fine?

 

[seelsa73]

Now, If Nimoy had not been there, and it was just straight out called a reboot! No problem! But they insist that this is the same universe. And don't give me, alternate, parallel, etc. Spock said, "Whatever our destinies would have been, they have been altered now." Uhura than came back with, "An alternate time line?" (Or something like that) NO WHERE in the ENTIRE movie did they establish themselves as an alternate reality/universe, etc. Nero and Spock went back in time, in THEIR time and change it, therefore changing the future as it played out for each of them, but not yet for those currently in that time frame.

Show me one line of proof FROM THE MOVIE that this is what happened, not just a bunch of fan boy wanking trying to wrap their brain around how this 'could be!' and making an excuse so that they won't have to be so mad about it

Spock:...Nero's very presence has altered the flow of history, beginning with the attack on the U.S.S. Kelvin, culminating in the events of today, thereby creating an entire new chain of incidents that cannot be anticipated by either party.
Uhura: An alternate reality.
Spock: Precisely. Whatever our lives might have been, if the time continuum was disrupted, our destinies have changed.

You can't get better proof than that...but wait, that doesn't count apparently, so never mind.

Part of the fun of our first movie was playing with the idea that Uhura and Spock were a couple. This movie takes that further and asks how that’s possible. Why would she be interested in that kind of guy, and why would she put up with him? It’s obvious what he would like about her. I mean, it’s fu***** Zoe Saldana.

Yes. That's JJ Abrams saying that Spock basically loves Uhura pretty much for her looks and that's to be expected.

You took that too literally; it was obviously a joke

 

[DARTH SABER]

To be fair, the movie itself doesn't know how it wants to depict it's alternate reality thing anyways. If this is indeed an alternate reality, why does Prime Spock refer to this reality's Vulcan as his home? Shouldn't "his" Vulcan be just fine?

I dont know about you, but if i ended up in an alternate reality with no way back, I would call alternate Earth home...Regardless of whether its an alternate version.

 

[NakedMoleRat]

So you want a quote from the movie that says its an alternate reality, but yet you're exempting the line in the movie where Spock and Uhura say its an alternate reality? LOL too funny.

Not exempting it at all! I'm USING the quote to make my point! An alternate reality.....Their reality (The timeline they would have lived) has been altered because Nero came back in time!

 

[Jet Beetle]

Remember the scene when Nero's kicks the tribble crap out of the USS Kelvin at the very beggining and they show this girl sucked out of the Kelvin screaming "Commander" or something - well, that was Picard's great grandmother - so guess what - no "soft" captains later on --

Thank you Nero
Your Pal
Jet Beetle

 

[NakedMoleRat]

Remember the scene when Nero's kicks the tribble crap out of the USS Kelvin at the very beggining and they show this girl sucked out of the Kelvin screaming "Commander" or something - well, that was Picard's great grandmother - so guess what - no "soft" captains later on --

Thank you Nero
Your Pal
Jet Beetle

Earl Grey futures just went to hell!

 

[NakedMoleRat]

I don't mean to nitpick - but I believe Patton Oswald has cemented the term "Time Ribbon" when universes collide = we should respect that.

And Kirk and Nero are perfect examples on how lots of people were effected by their journey against the clock. Kirk's dad, Kirk, his mother, everyone on Vulcan - or are you saying those events are now in the one and only universe? if that be the case - wouldn't old Spock have known exactly how this mission ends and simply forgotten everything about where he came from -- Nero too for that matter. He would have arrived in the past and said "What are we doing here?"
I was watching a NG episode the other day and someone referred to Romulas as if it was still there - so... ah crap this is all too much. I have a feeling JJ is going to be bagged and tagged one day, shoved back in time where a LOOPER will be waiting for him.

To be fair, my friend.....there were a few really spot on good moments in the movie. I wish there had been more.

Maybe we'll get a few more of those with "Herbert!?"

 

[DARTH SABER]

Not exempting it at all! I'm USING the quote to make my point! An alternate reality.....Their reality (The timeline they would have lived) has been altered because Nero came back in time!

Correct, THEIR reality has been altered, but the original reality has not...thus an alternate reality.

 

[seelsa73]

Not exempting it at all! I'm USING the quote to make my point! An alternate reality.....Their reality (The timeline they would have lived) has been altered because Nero came back in time!

But that line doesn't corroborate your point. Quite the opposite in fact.

 

[Michael Bergeron]

Remember the scene when Nero's kicks the tribble crap out of the USS Kelvin at the very beggining and they show this girl sucked out of the Kelvin screaming "Commander" or something - well, that was Picard's great grandmother - so guess what - no "soft" captains later on --

Thank you Nero
Your Pal
Jet Beetle

I like you Jet, I really do. But don't make me throw down in defense of my man Picard! :lol

 

[NakedMoleRat]

But that line doesn't corroborate your point. Quite the opposite in fact.

Sigh.....New timeline that they are in, which would not HAVE been if Nero had not come back! If Nero had NOT come back, Nu-Spock would have lived the same life Prime Spock did, Kirk, et. all. It's really not that hard to wrap your brain around..... :lol