Star Trek Into Darkness (Post-release)

He sees Khan as Joker to Kirk's Batman.

Honest question. Is this really a good comparison? I know Khan is an iconic Star Trek villain, but I never once thought of him like the Joker in any respects. The original Khan wasn't really all that evil to begin with, and his villain status came from years of horrible circumstances that I would think would drive anyone insane. If I had to categorize Khan with a Batman villain, Two-Face or Mr. Freeze would be a better example. Two-Face for being a once respected but tough individual driven to madness after a series of circumstances leaves him emotionally driven to hateful revenge. Or Mr. Freeze who has been genetically altered and fights to preserve the lives of the ones he cares about.

The thing about the Joker is that he represents the exact opposite of what Batman stands for. There is nothing about the Joker that Batman respects or admires. Khan on the other hand does have some similarities to Kirk in that they're both admirers of literature, have their own crew and they're seeking out new worlds. There was even that scene in "Space Seed" where when the crew finally figure out who he is, they have to convince Spock that while they acknowledge he is dangerous, there was something admirable about him. Thanks to Bob Orci's line of thinking that Khan is Star Trek's Joker is that we'll probably never see Khan or Kirk come to a respectful understanding. Space Seed didn't end with Khan being send to an Asylum or to a prison planet. Kirk actually gave Khan what he wanted in the end. A world to win and an empire to build. Batman would never do that with the Joker.
 
If you ask me, there is no correlation between Khan & any Batman villain, not even the more tragic ones who didn't start out as villains. The thing with Khan is that he never was just a nice guy and then, because of tragic circumstances, became bad, he was always something of a bad guy and results of Space Seed just turned him from bad to worse. While Khan was no Hitler or Stalin he was still out for world conquest and fought a war to try to accomplish his goals and after his encounter with Kirk and tragic aftermath he then tried to avenge himself upon Kirk and who knows what he would have done afterwards had he succeeded. Name one Batman villain that started out bad and then became worse or personally obsessed with vengeance against Bats after losing an encounter with him and things go tragically wrong as a result? Basically, it's a flawed comparison to start with as there is no Batman villain that remotely resembles Khan,
 
Batman would never do that with the Joker.

(Comic book) Batman allows the Joker to continue to live. That is Batman's "gift" to him considering he has killed over 2000 people (including the second Robin). Even though he is considered insane in the eyes of the law and therefore incapable of receiving the death penalty, any other "vigilante" would have killed him and figured they have done the World a favour.


PS- how you can defend a man (Khan) who easily abuses, both physically and mentally the woman who loves him is beyond me.


Kevin
 
PS- how you can defend a man (Khan) who easily abuses, both physically and mentally the woman who loves him is beyond me.

Compared to what a lot of abusers do to women, Khan comes off as quite tame. He doesn't do it for the sake of doing it and is quite insistent that Marla be with him only if it's what she wants to do. And despite helping Khan take over the Enterprise, Marla still sticks to her standards by not allowing Khan to kill anyone on the Enterprise. Plus when she's given the option to accompany Khan to build an empire on Ceti Alpha Five, he warns her that it will be a struggle just to stay alive. His response after she says she'll go with him?

superiorwoman_zpsee500685.jpeg


Yep. Khan, the genetically enhanced human who bragged about how superior he was to everyone (even calling Kirk inferior) just called Marla, a regular human who actually betrayed him, superior. For someone like him to be so quick to forgive Marla for betraying him and his people, I think there's a side to him that loves her just as much as she loves him.
 
Compared to what a lot of abusers do to women, Khan comes off as quite tame. He doesn't do it for the sake of doing it and is quite insistent that Marla be with him only if it's what she wants to do. And despite helping Khan take over the Enterprise, Marla still sticks to her standards by not allowing Khan to kill anyone on the Enterprise. Plus when she's given the option to accompany Khan to build an empire on Ceti Alpha Five, he warns her that it will be a struggle just to stay alive. His response after she says she'll go with him?

http://i1181.photobucket.com/albums/x436/lordJeyl/superiorwoman_zpsee500685.jpeg

Yep. Khan, the genetically enhanced human who bragged about how superior he was to everyone (even calling Kirk inferior) just called Marla, a regular human who actually betrayed him, superior. For someone like him to be so quick to forgive Marla for betraying him and his people, I think there's a side to him that loves her just as much as she loves him.

Abuse is abuse no matter how you slice it and no matter how much a person may love their victim or vice versa. Just because Khan may truly lover Marla and she him and just because he might consider her to be a superior woman does not justify abuse, mental or physical. I'm really surprised that you, of al people, would defend Khan's treatment of Marla considering how much you deride ST:ID and its portrayal of Carol Marcus along with other posts about strong female characters & what not.
 
Compared to what a lot of abusers do to women, Khan comes off as quite tame. He doesn't do it for the sake of doing it and is quite insistent that Marla be with him only if it's what she wants to do. And despite helping Khan take over the Enterprise, Marla still sticks to her standards by not allowing Khan to kill anyone on the Enterprise. Plus when she's given the option to accompany Khan to build an empire on Ceti Alpha Five, he warns her that it will be a struggle just to stay alive. His response after she says she'll go with him?

http://i1181.photobucket.com/albums/x436/lordJeyl/superiorwoman_zpsee500685.jpeg

Yep. Khan, the genetically enhanced human who bragged about how superior he was to everyone (even calling Kirk inferior) just called Marla, a regular human who actually betrayed him, superior. For someone like him to be so quick to forgive Marla for betraying him and his people, I think there's a side to him that loves her just as much as she loves him.

Wow, this is shocking coming from you. Khan may have loved Marla but he physically and emotionally abused and manipulated her to his will. This completely invalidates all your credibity and supposed passionate defense of how women are portrayed in the new ST universe. More proof that you troll as much as actually engage in a thoughtful conversation.
 
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So, I started listening to the aforementioned Mission Log podcast interview with Bob Orci.

I think some folks here might be interested in what Orci has to say. It's actually a really long interview and I've not even gotten halfway through it, but there's already been some tidbits that I thought were interesting.
1) Khan was not inserted as "fan service," as speculated above. Orci's goal was that STID work as a standalone film, and that Khan was inserted in spite of what they knew was going to be controversy from the fans. He sees Khan as Joker to Kirk's Batman.
2) The first part of the film addressing Kirk's demotion was done in response to criticism of the first film, that he was promoted to Captain too fast.
3) Scotty was given more meat to chew on, so to speak, including the angle about his resigning over the "military" mission the Enterprise was undertaking
4) The plot was indeed conceived as a "message" movie about justice, the use of preemptive force, and the inherent contradictions in being a "peacekeeping armada." Orci feels strongly that this is in line with the ideals of Trek (I happen to agree with him).
5) Orci hopes that ST09 and STID have given them enough 'weight' to bring in a more Sci-Fi angle on the next film.

They also talk about developing ST09...as I said I'm not even halfway through, so I'm sure they go into lots more. Thus far though, if you have the time, I think it's a worthwhile interview that will give some more insight into the making of the film.

Point 1 is slightly invalidated given all the other clearly fan service moments in the film (Carol, Kirk's death, KAHHHHHHHHN). Comparing Khan to Joker betrays a gross misunderstanding of the characters and their relationships with their respective nemesis. Best case he's a Moriarty, an antagonist who the layperson latched onto as the true antagonist despite having the barest of appearances in the canon.

Point 2 was a waste of time given he's demoted for all of five minutes. Maybe if he'd stayed demoted long enough for it to actually impact the story in anyway it would have been more than a hollow token gesture that made Pike look a tad bipolar in his attitude towards Kirk.

3 and 4 I'll grant them.

Point 5... sure they will. They had plenty of "weight" after the first one made a ton of money and brought in new fans and made Star Trek "hip." They could have gone with something more Sci-Fi in this film, but gave us a "Space Seed/WoK" hybrid that they admit was written to exclude the character they felt compelled to include, bad idea be damned.
 
Riceball said:
I'm really surprised that you, of al people, would defend Khan's treatment of Marla considering how much you deride ST:ID and its portrayal of Carol Marcus along with other posts about strong female characters & what not.
SSgt Burton said:
So this is acceptable behaviour to you, because it "isn't as bad as bad can be"?
Bryancd said:
This completely invalidates all your credibity and supposed passionate defense of how women are portrayed in the new ST universe. More proof that you troll as much as actually engage in a thoughtful conversation.

I believe abuse is something that should not be tolerated, but I also believe that some things can be forgiven and that there are people who can forgive. And isn't that what the ending to Space Seed was kind of all about? Kirk giving Khan and his people a chance to do what they set out to do despite what they did? Giving Marla a chance to not face a court martial and be with someone she obviously wants to be with? Am I saying that the abuse was good for Marla's character? No. Am I defending Khan abusing her? No. It was a dark and brooding moment where Marla becomes the victim of abuse, but in the end she is able to stand up to Khan's extremities and do the right thing in order to save the crew of the Enterprise. And she didn't need any other character to tell her to do the right thing. Yep. She did it all on her own. That is not something you would normally get in a story like this, especially for being a product of the 60s. And as for all of you being so surprised that I wouldn't be bothered by this, I've watched all of the original series and I can tell you right now that you would be hard pressed to find another one-shot female character like Marla in the original series who was able to stand on her own and make things happen. She had that tough moment, but she rose the occasion.

And Bryancd, she was ready to follow his will before he even woke up! :p

And I'm serious about women in Star Trek. Remember Vina from "The Cage"? The character who was abducted when she was young, being used as breeding stock and routinely tortured? Well now that she's free, she doesn't want to go with Pike because she feels her life is useless as long as she's not beautiful. Written by Gene Roddenberry. As for "Number One"? Well, he turned her into a love struck nurse.
What about "Mudd's Women" where a con artists smuggles women around to be brides to people who like them only for their beauty? Written by Gene Roddenberry.
Or how about "Assignment: Earth" where the character of Gary 7 continuously strokes his female cat (who's true form is actually very human) or the portrayal of Roberta being the ditsy, clumsy, no-good character who is a danger to herself and others? Written by Gene Roddenberry.
And my favorite, "Turnabout Intruder", an episode that not only cements the idea that Starfleet IS a sexist organization that doesn't allow women to be Captains, but the female character who does want to be a Starship Captain is a crazy mass murdering psychopath. And being the last episode of the series, it ends with the line "Her life could have been as rich as any woman's. If only...if only...". Because everything we've seen in this series sure reflects a rich life for women in Star Trek. Written by Gene Roddenberry.

Funny how among the roster of female characters in Star Trek that the one who actually had a rich and emotional presence in the whole series, Edith Keeler,*is the only one that not only dies in the end, but was written as NEEDING TO DIE. We can't have characters like that in Star Trek unless they need to be some emotional anchor.

Damon Lindelof recently said that Star Trek Into Darkness actually had a different ending in mind that would have involved a Klingon Fleet approaching Earth for retribution for what happened on Qu'nos. With Kirk dead and Spock duking it out with Khan on Earth, it would have shown Uhura on a battered and crippled Enterprise facing the Klingon fleet and using diplomacy to turn the Klingons away. Damon Lindelof said this was tossed early on because "it didn’t feel intimate, cool, or earned." So when it came to Uhura's involvement in the ending, one involving making peace with the Klingons to just beaming down with a gun, beaming down with a gun proves more interesting.... Even if it did end up being another "Earth is in danger!" moment, the idea of a crippled Enterprise facing a Klingon armada that could easily squash it like a fly, but don't thanks to Uhura's diplomacy and language skills would have been the coolest thing in the whole movie.
 
So Marla is strong for choosing to stay in an abusive relationship? Right. I guess there must be a lot of strong, abused women out there then and I'm sure that a lot of their "strength" helped them to the hospital and, in some cases, the grave. Since when is leaving an abusive relationship a weak thing? If you ask me, having Marla staying with Khan is just another example of more chauvanistic writing in TOS since back then it was expected of a woman to stand by her man through good and bad, thick and thin, and even if your man abuses you physically &/or mentally.
 
Since when is leaving an abusive relationship a weak thing? If you ask me, having Marla staying with Khan is just another example of more chauvanistic writing in TOS since back then it was expected of a woman to stand by her man through good and bad, thick and thin, and even if your man abuses you physically &/or mentally.

Quoted

For

Truth.


Jeyl- You cannot under any and all circumstances defend the relationship between Khan and Marla. Zero tolerance. He abused her. Period.

She may have stood beside him, however this was the wrong thing to do. He was completely toxic for her as EVERY abuser in EVERY abusive relationship ALWAYS is.

This is the evil nature of the abusive relationship. Go and look up the "cycle of violence."

It starts with treating a person as an object. Verbal/physical abuse. Complete control over another person through the fear of violence, or the "threat" of ending the relationship (something Khan did right away knowing that Marla would not "leave" when he demanded her to).

The uglyness is that the abuser KNOWS they have control over the abused. They might shower them with love, until they go against their wishes (or the smallest thing sets them off). This results in mental or physical abuse. Then the "I'm sorry, forgive me" phase and the "things are wonderful again" phase... and the cycle begins again.

Except that each time, the abuse becomes worse/more intense. As mentioned eventually resulting in a brutal beating that leaves the victim in the hospital or dead. It is not a question of it happening or not, but a question of time.

The insidious nature of the relationship is that the victim is lead to believe that in some way the abuser's behaviour is the victim's fault. That "they" are responsible for the abuser's actions, and so by forgiving them, they are in some way forgiving themselves for upsetting the abuser. They may also come to believe the garbage that the abuser may spout in that they are not "good enough" for any other person and so the abuser is "all they've got." In other words the threat is that if they leave, they will never find someone else ever again as they are too stupid, ugly, fat, or unacceptable for anyone else to want to be with them.

There is also the delusional hope that "things will get better", and each session of violence will be "the last time it happens."

This is just another method of control. Some of which Khan displayed in the very brief meetings between Marla and himself.

These should have set off all kinds of red flags to Marla, but she was too enamoured with him to see them, too naive to recognize them, or outright chose to ignore them. She should have left immediately. It does not make her a "strong female" to have stuck beside him, it makes her a victim who despite it being ABSOLUTELY THE WRONG THING TO DO, still chooses to "stand by her man."

You cannot defend this. You cannot twist her inability to leave Khan as being inner strength. Nor should you ever paint the relationship between Khan and Marla in a positive light. There are no positives. You are dead wrong here.

I completely agree that this is (bad) 60s chauvanistic writing that is along the same lines as the reason behind Vina not wanting to return to Earth... only a thousand times worse.


Kevin
 
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Responding to a few points:

1) Although I agree with Orci on some points, my objective is not to defend his comments, only present them.

2) The point of an analogy is not to make a direct comparison, rather point out similarities. I therefore don't interpret Orci's argument that Khan is Joker to Kirk's Batman as saying that the characters will end up having the same motivations. I interpret his remarks as saying basically that they're drawing from a well known rivalry in the canon.

3) As far as "fan service," having actually listened to Orci articulate why some of those moments were inserted into the film, I don't get the impression that the thought process behind it was "Hey, we'll mention Harry Mudd because TOS fans will 'get' it!" While I agree that the end result was a bit ham fisted, I think their intentions came from a different place than those ascribed to the writers here.
 
I completely agree that this is (bad) 60s chauvanistic writing that is along the same lines as the reason behind Vina not wanting to return to Earth... only a thousand times worse.

And I DO take this crap very seriously, more so than I am conveying here. And let me be honest when I say I love every single reply you guys gave me, even you Bryancd (but would you stop calling me a troll?)! Knowing that everyone here takes this kind of treatment seriously is reassuring, and I'm sorry if what I said bothered you. I'm really with you guys on this. "Space Seed" just happened to be one of those episodes I kind of haven't watched in a while and after just watching it, yeah it's bad. Never mind that abuse part, but we also get to slap Uhura around in the conference room too. You'd almost think that the tough look Uhura gives would show that she's stern and not going to budge, but that feeling is pretty much shot when she quickly cowers at Khan saying that Kirk is dead. I don't even want to imagine what kind of direction was given to Nichelle for that scene.

So I'll end this debacle with a quote from SFDebris' review on said treatment.

*Khan tinkering with Marla's hair*
"Am I the only one who thinks this plays out like an excerpt from an HR Sexual harassment video? Sexual harassment in the work place is no laughing matter. If someone says they want to breed a race of genetic supermen with you, tell them politely but firmly that such talk is unprofessional. Don't be afraid to stand up for your right not to be man handled by a dictitorial superman. The law is on your side."​
 
Of COURSE you can do Batman without the Joker. And you can (and should) certainly do new Star Trek without Khan. There's over 500 hours of Star Trek in existence and until ID, only three dealt with Khan. And that was fine with me.

JJ created a whole freakin' new Universe and what does he do? He screws around with the old one. An entire universe to explore and what do we see? Kronos and Earth and a glimpse of an alien world that's gone in the first five minutes.

I won't be buying the DVD for so many reasons, but here's one of the main ones: The 800 Pound Gorilla.
 
Of COURSE you can do Batman without the Joker. And you can (and should) certainly do new Star Trek without Khan. There's over 500 hours of Star Trek in existence and until ID, only three dealt with Khan. And that was fine with me.

And that's what's so flawed about Orci equating Khan to Kirk with the Joker to Batman, the Joker is Batman's arch-nemesis, represents everything that Batman isn't and fights against and has encountered him (in the comics & Animated Series) a countless number of times while Kirk has only encountered him (in the original timeline) only twice and Khan is hardly the complete opposite of Kirk like the Joker is to Batman. The only similarity between Khan & the Joker is that they're both one of the most memorable villains in their respective franchises but that's about it.
 
I forgive you, now stop being a pain sometimes. :)

And don't look at me, people were calling you a troll back on page 5 of this damn thread!
 
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Which is exactly why I equate him more to Moriarty. People treat Moriarty as the ultimate foe to Holmes, but he was only in one story and mentioned in one other. He has barely any presence, but he was the one who "killed" Holmes so people blow it out of proportion. You can easily do Holmes without Moriarty, Doyle did for years before he got sick of Holmes and killed him off.

I don't think of Kahn as a necessary part of Kirk's story, certainly not the same as Joker is for Batman. Kirk spent more time talking computers to death than he did battling Kahn, but that's not considered an intrinsic part of the Kirk saga that NuTrek has to rehash?

Jlee, sorry if it came off as I was directing my earlier counterpoints to you personally, my intent was merely to profess my difference of opinion with half of Orci's bull***t statements.
 
kirk's nemesis were always the Klingons. They went from an enemy, to a source of irritation, to a personal demon for the death of his son.

yep...Klingons! Klingons I say!
 
I see a little silhouetto of a man,
Scaramouche, Scaramouche, will you do the Fandango?
Thunderbolt and lightning,
Very, very frightening me.
(Galileo) Galileo.
star-trek-2009-klingons.jpg
(Galileo) Galileo,
klingon-jj.jpg
Galileo Figaro
Magnifico.
 
Which is exactly why I equate him more to Moriarty. People treat Moriarty as the ultimate foe to Holmes, but he was only in one story and mentioned in one other. He has barely any presence, but he was the one who "killed" Holmes so people blow it out of proportion. You can easily do Holmes without Moriarty, Doyle did for years before he got sick of Holmes and killed him off.

I don't think of Kahn as a necessary part of Kirk's story, certainly not the same as Joker is for Batman. Kirk spent more time talking computers to death than he did battling Kahn, but that's not considered an intrinsic part of the Kirk saga that NuTrek has to rehash?

Jlee, sorry if it came off as I was directing my earlier counterpoints to you personally, my intent was merely to profess my difference of opinion with half of Orci's bull***t statements.

Let's face it, Nick Meyer and his crew loved Ricardo and his portrayal in "Space Seed", a highly regarded TOS episode, and simply brought him back to make an amazing film. That's what made the character iconic. It was what they did with him, at the time, with that actor. It was a unreasonable assumption to place so much import to Khan in the overall Trek universe beyond name recognition where the new team failed in the writing. It was lightning in a bottle and they couldn't recreate it and were left with fans going huh? and new fans going who cares?
 
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