Star Trek Into Darkness (Post-release)

[Jeyl]

And what exactly was wrong with Alice Eve's changing scene? Sure it was a bit gratuitous but she certainly looked good in it and I didn't feel that it took anything away from the movie, even if it didn't add anything either.

I think you nailed it already. It didn't add anything nor take anything away so it's just pointless. Plus it doesn't really do anything for her character since JJ states it's just there for Kirk to have a moment at her expense. The only other thing she brings to the story is that she has daddy issues, because that trope hasn't already been done to death at this point in this new take of Star Trek.

But in all honesty, this pointless scene alone is not what bothers me. It's how JJ Abrams honestly believes he's made an even trade off with that one shot of Kirk earlier in the film. I'm sorry, but JJ is either delusional or thinks that women only have 1/3 value as characters compared to the male characters.

 

[Zuiun]

And what exactly was wrong with Alice Eve's changing scene? Sure it was a bit gratuitous but she certainly looked good in it and I didn't feel that it took anything away from the movie, even if it didn't add anything either.

The problem with it is that it is lazy, and what it takes away from the film is to reduce Eve's character to an object.

If writers want to convey a man as desirable in a film, they show him as strong and intelligent, a good leader, and willing to sacrifice himself for the greater good. If they want to show a woman as desirable, they show her in underwear.

That's what's wrong with it.

 

[Bryancd]

Well, Trek has never shied away from using sexuality. TOS was lousy with female characters wearing next to nothing. Even Nichelle stripped down to do a fan dance in ST V. In the original Space Seed episode Khan is physically abusive to McGivers.

 

[MooCriket]

Well stated. Although the one woman in the the Mirror Universe episode seemed like a formable character. Shame they did nothing with her character when she appeared on the bridge in the normal universe.

Well, Trek has never shied away from using sexuality. TOS was lousy with female characters wearing next to nothing. Even Nichelle stripped down to do a fan dance in ST V. In the original Space Seed episode Khan is physically abusive to McGivers.

 

[jlee562]

Well, not that I disagree that it's a bit sexist, but JJ showed a deleted scene with Cumberbatch in the shower on Conan....

Benedict Cumberbatch Deleted Shower Scene From "Star Trek Into Darkness"

 

[Bryancd]

This really is the definition of a tempest in a tea pot.

 

[The Mad Professor]

Okay, let's be honest here. If Alice Eve (or any other star) is perfectly okay with scantily-clad or nude scenes, then why the heck are people complaining? If they weren't okay with it, they would never have taken the role in the first place.

 

[Zuiun]

Couple of things here:

First of all, it isn't fair to compare a movie made today, in 2013, to a TV series made in the 1960's, a time period still coming to terms with acknowledging the equality of women in society and still filled with misogynistic attitudes. Or even with a film made in the late 80's, also a time when the objectification of women was considered socially acceptable.

Second, what does it matter if there is a deleted scene of Cumberbatch in the shower...when it was, you know, deleted?

Now don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that Alice Eve isn't an enormously attractive woman and that on some level it isn't enticing to see her in that scene. It is absolutely healthy to find images such as that attractive. We are hard wired to do so.

However, Abrams is claiming that his intent was to show that Kirk is a pig and that HIS attitude is the misogynist one. But he fails at that intent miserably, because Abrams put the focus on Eve and her body and completely minimized Kirk's actions. I don't think the scene is at all necessary (thus gratuitous), but you want to keep it in there AND accomplish the goal of showing Kirk's character? Fine. Put the focus on Kirk and his ogling. You don't need to show Eve posing on display for the audience to convey that message.

Again, it's lazy.

 

[jlee562]

1) Well, if it's not fair to compare the two, then 2/3rds of the discussion in any JJ-Trek thread is invalid.

2) The point that JJ was making, is that he attempted to show some equal opportunity skin. This would be in contrast to claims of sexism.

3) I take your point - and wholeheartedly agree -that the shot itself was lazy filmmaking, and I take it from JJ's response that it was edited poorly that he would agree with that criticism.

 

[Zuiun]

Okay, let's be honest here. If Alice Eve (or any other star) is perfectly okay with scantily-clad or nude scenes, then why the heck are people complaining? If they weren't okay with it, they would never have taken the role in the first place.

You are making the assumption that these people are "perfectly okay" with these scenes, versus wanting to work in film, and yet these are the scenes that are written for them. Time and time again. You don't know how these kinds of scenes are presented before the contract is signed, or even if they are added at a later date.

The attitude that "if they didn't like it they wouldn't do it" is bad, bad logic, at best.

 

[Zuiun]

2) The point that JJ was making, is that he attempted to show some equal opportunity skin. This would be in contrast to claims of sexism.

Sexism doesn't have to be intentional to be present. Most of the time it isn't intentional, and that's part of the problem. People think "it's no big deal."

Abrams "attempted" to show "equal opportunity skin," and yet the scene with Kirk also involved two half dressed women, and the scene with Cumberbatch was deleted.

Further, it could be argued that showing Kirk ogle Marcus wasn't necessary because showing him earlier in bed with two women (and also in another scene blatantly hitting on a woman while walking with Spock to his meeting) were MORE than enough to show Kirk's character.

So the "attempt" was incredibly inept.

 

[The Mad Professor]

You are making the assumption that these people are "perfectly okay" with these scenes, versus wanting to work in film, and yet these are the scenes that are written for them. Time and time again. You don't know how these kinds of scenes are presented before the contract is signed, or even if they are added at a later date.

The attitude that "if they didn't like it they wouldn't do it" is bad, bad logic, at best.

I'll admit that I'm not up to par on Hollywood contracts, but it seems logical that a contract would include any information about nude/semi-clothed scenes to keep the person informed of what they're signing up for. There are actresses who flat out state that they won't do nude scenes, so any script they get will indicate whether or not nudity will be in the film.

 

[Jeyl]

I think this article from TheMarySue.com nails all the points.

Star Trek Shower Scene | The Mary Sue

 

[Bryancd]

I think this article from TheMarySue.com nails all the points.

Star Trek Shower Scene | The Mary Sue

As a strong advocate for women's issues you should be more open about yourself and not fear being judged by this community.

 

[jlee562]

Sexism doesn't have to be intentional to be present. Most of the time it isn't intentional, and that's part of the problem. People think "it's no big deal."

Abrams "attempted" to show "equal opportunity skin," and yet the scene with Kirk also involved two half dressed women, and the scene with Cumberbatch was deleted.

Further, it could be argued that showing Kirk ogle Marcus wasn't necessary because showing him earlier in bed with two women (and also in another scene blatantly hitting on a woman while walking with Spock to his meeting) were MORE than enough to show Kirk's character.

So the "attempt" was incredibly inept.

Didn't I already agree with you?

 

[Bryancd]

Sexism doesn't have to be intentional to be present. Most of the time it isn't intentional, and that's part of the problem. People think "it's no big deal."

Abrams "attempted" to show "equal opportunity skin," and yet the scene with Kirk also involved two half dressed women, and the scene with Cumberbatch was deleted.

Further, it could be argued that showing Kirk ogle Marcus wasn't necessary because showing him earlier in bed with two women (and also in another scene blatantly hitting on a woman while walking with Spock to his meeting) were MORE than enough to show Kirk's character.

So the "attempt" was incredibly inept.

So would this also apply to the ST V fan dance scene? Or Lt. Ilia in the shower in TMP? Or is this just a non-issue for people to get excised about and pillory JJ Abrams?

 

[jlee562]

For me anyway, it's not the depiction of nudity (or in these cases, near nudity) that is the problem. With the case of Uhura in V, it was the allure of her body and movement that was drawing those guys away from their camp.

In Into Darkness, it was Kirk just being a womanizer.

That's the distinction for me, YMMV.

 

[Bryancd]

I would suggest both scenes were played more from the standpoint of humor as opposed to mysogeny.

 

[Mola Rob]

I have no issue with nudity or semi-nudity in movies and I find Alice Eve incredibly beautiful. That said I have to say the whole lead in to the scene is silly because it just doesn't fit it with what we know about Star Trek. Marcus leads Kirk to the shuttle while telling him they will need to move the torpedo off the Enterprise to disarm it. Fine but why not request the use of a shuttle and change in your quarters? It's a moment that is there only for the bit where she is changing. It's more soap opera than Star Trek.

 

[Jeyl]

As a strong advocate for women's issues you should be more open about yourself and not fear being judged by this community.

I'm judged here on a constant basis so I'm not worried about that at all. That being said, when it comes to being an advocate for women's issues, I always try to get as many different perspectives on the issue as I can, especially from other women. The Mary Sue is a website I visit daily just to get the scoop on what's happening with women everywhere, and it's not just about irksome topics like this mess. So when I come across this article written by Susana Polo, I decided to share it here so anyone who's interested in reading up on the matter from a woman's viewpoint may do so. I think that's a far better thing for me to do than simply take chunks from her article and reword it in my own way. Despite english being my one and only language, I do have a hard time conveying a point I want to get across, and when others manage to do just that, I put a link to their work and try to let others know that their feelings towards the matter are the same as mine.