Sidkit and me, racprops

[themanwoaname]

No you weren't. You said earlier that that people should make casting of found items.

Nick

i think you may have misunderstood.

Noname, I THINK what you said at first is that Rich recast a Steyr, so it's ok for Sid to do the same. But then it sounded like you were defending Rich because he did more work than just drop a Steyr in rubber.

When is it ok for someone to use someone else's work as a springboard for a new and improved version? I think that is the question. If Sid made a carbon copy of Rich's gun and undercut him on price, then I think we would all agree that Sid is in the wrong. However if you read what Andy has said about Sid, it sounds like Sid was a fan who wanted to make a better product for the masses.

I'm confused.

its never been my intention to defend rich. i dont think sid's done anything wrong at all, he didnt make a complete recast of rich's kit if i understood this right, just the original pistol parts that anyone can purchase and copy, and he made his own improvements on his own kit. rich is making the complaint that his parts are recasted, when he himself recasted original parts that anyone can cast.

my other question that no one has addressed, why have i heard more about a sidkit than rac's? that would lead me to believe that sid's kit is not only more popular but is the best of the two.

 

[Wolvster1]

It is called a code of honor amount thieves…

I already stated the rules as I have understood them for about 30+ years.

Rich

That would be " Code of Honor AMONG thieves.. "

 

[racprops]

Right spell checker.... correct spelling wrong word...

Rich

 

[Apollo]

Because you are not well-read on the Blade-runner Blaster?

my other question that no one has addressed, why have i heard more about a sidkit than rac's? that would lead me to believe that sid's kit is not only more popular but is the best of the two.

 

[Mercury]

i think you may have misunderstood.

Rich is making the complaint that his parts are recasted, when he himself recasted original parts that anyone can cast.

my other question that no one has addressed, why have i heard more about a sidkit than rac's? that would lead me to believe that sid's kit is not only more popular but is the best of the two.

let me understand something here.

you recasted original pistol parts and sold a kit.
sidkit, took your pistol parts(basically no different from casting the original guns) and made some things on his own, made the kit out of metal, and improving on his own kit.

why have i heard more about a sidkit than yours? when is streyr going to be contacting you?

this recasting grey area in this community is absurd. you're just as guilty as he is.

This is where you seem to be misunderstanding or the way you're saying it is wrong. Rich modified the originals parts to make it easier to build the BR gun and then cast them. The cast parts from Steyr are not standard but modified by Rich and then cast. So in that sense, if Syd had recast an original Steyr, they would not be the same as Rich's. This is where you're coming off wrong in your posts.

Plus I don't see how you could not know about Rich and his work, and not just regarding the BR gun. I had read info about Rich even before I ever heard of Syd's work, and Syd's work on multiple props is outstanding. I agree with both on this though. Syd wasn't a common variety recaster out to sell crap and score money but was a talented lover of the hobby. Rich is also a talented lover of the hobby but for him it's also a business and still feels wronged. I definitely can see his side of things but don't see how it will ever be resolved to his satisfaction. I wish him and Sid had come to some kind of agreement, as it might have produced some truly awesome pieces.

 

[racprops]

I tried, but Sid seemed more interested in getting more models from me than making a fair deal..(Part of the deal was for him to make other models I had and for me to get a bunch of them as payment.)

When I asked him three times to just repeat back to me the deal (all he would say was " I agree with you Richard...") he then flew off the handle and claimed I was asking way too much, this is after three times I stated my offer and three times he said " Ok", "I agree with you", and "I will do that"... but not once did he state the deal, in his own words nor in any email...

So when I said I would not send any new models until he put the deal in writing it fell apart...

What do you think that was about???

Rich

 

[racprops]

"my other question that no one has addressed, why have i heard more about a sidkit than rac's? that would lead me to believe that sid's kit is not only more popular but is the best of the two."

Well I have been very busy making them..

And Sid kits did indeed sell very well.

And some are still beating the drum for them.

And I waited and stayed out of the fight...I knew this would happen all over again.

Rich

 

[Grey]

And I waited and stayed out of the fight...I knew this would happen all over again.

What, untill he was dead? :lol Posting claims of emails between you and him is bad form when there's noone to dispute them. If you want to argue about what he openly admitted then fine, but you can't prove anything beyond that and since he can't be here to offer his side of the story, it shouldn't be allowed into the context of the situation.

 

[racprops]

It has been about 2 years...

And I am pointing out what he did admit to over at propsummit..a lot of it did indeed happen out in the open, on prosummit...and it is old news, now if his so called partner would stop make models then this would truely be over.

And I also point out my web site tells all, follow the articles and you can make one of your own, and I know for a fact that some have done that and that some have bought one of my models and used it as a guild in making their own models, and at lease they did the work and did not throw rubber over my model.

So I waited for his partner to run out of left overs...seems it has not happend yet.

Rich

 

[racprops]

And before you get to how we/I am hurting the original prop maker..well he should have been very well paid for his work for the studio, and second most of the time we were asked to sign exclusive contracts not to make them for anyone else..we took that to mean another studio adn not to retail them.

So many of us traded with our fellow prop makers, and then we could make copies to sell of someone else’s model.. and he could do the same with one of mine…

We also had an old rule: to remake the model so that it was NOT a 100% reproduction, that most collectors would know it was a remade retailed model not a off the studio original.

Many of us could not make a living with only two to three months income a year so had to find other ways to pay the bills.

Rich

 

[Grey]

And before you get to how we/I am hurting the original prop maker..well he should have been very well paid for his work for the studio, and second most of the time we were asked to sign exclusive contracts not to make them for anyone else..we took that to mean another studio adn not to retail them.

So many of us traded with our fellow prop makers, and then we could make copies to sell of someone else’s model.. and he could do the same with one of mine…

We also had an old rule: to remake the model so that it was NOT a 100% reproduction, that most collectors would know it was a remade retailed model not a off the studio original.

Many of us could not make a living with only two to three months income a year so had to find other ways to pay the bills.

Rich

How exactly do you think your justifications for your actions are any different than Sidero's for copying your model?

You're splitting hairs with this "it wasen't a 100% reproduction" nonsense. You sold a kit based on the popularity of the movie and the fact you we're copying a design that someone else made. That's all there is to it, no wiggle room.

If you're going to debate this issue then you should be prepared to have the same questions fired right back at you. The only reason you care is because it was Sidero copying YOUR copy, I doubt you feel any kind of deep sympathy for the origional prop department guy who cooked the gun up, and that's obvious from your efforts at justifying it.

Yea, I guess musicians have made plenty of money already so lets just stop buying their albums and download them. And those movie stars? Hah, yea, like they need any more money. Lets just pirate their newest film because that's basically your justifaction for why what you did was Ok, but what he did isn't. You can't bring any legal action against him because you don't own the rights to the design in the first place, so all you can do is trash the guy when he's either dead or missing.

 

[racprops]

I have covered the facts, and the way so many of us have done it.

I fought with him and so many like you when he was alive.

Stealing music and coping films is directly taking the money out of the creator’s pocket.

Roddenberry and even Lucas supported our hobby as it helped keep the shows and films alive...

Making a prop that NO ONE IS MAKING harms no one. I made this prop when there were no others being made. I made it out of bits and pieces and hard work and bondo and aluminum and resin and more hard work. I recreated the prop. Read my web site and see how it was done. Welcome To RacProps

I would say taking any Fan made Prop that is being made and sold and ripping it off would hurt their sales and harm them.

I have never done that: I never ripped off a company nor a fan propmaker and made a copy of their work to undercut them and cut into their sales.

I have made my own version of a prop and competed with them, but it would /has been my own model. And often a different type of model, my rep is for putting in Lights and Sound effects into once static models and making them work. It even became a slang to say a working prop had been Coyleised.

Sid did nothing right. He knew I was making them and selling them, and he knew I was doing fairly well with sales, he wanted in. He wanted a piece of my pie and so he stole my model and made copies to then steal some of my sales.

IF he had made his own then we would have been competors and the talks would come down to price, features and accurately. A fair completion and part of life.

SO To recap, ripping off a work/model that someone is currently making and selling and making and selling a recast copy of that work and stealing their sales is stealing, double stealing as you using their own work to rip them off.

THAT IS WHAT THIS IS ABOUT.

And as long as they are being made and sold as new on eBay this is not over.

Rich

 

[Grey]

I made it out of bits and pieces and hard work and bondo and aluminum and resin and more hard work. I recreated the prop. Read my web site and see how it was done.

Anyone can learn the skills to copy anothers work, being creative enough to come up with an origional idea is a wholly different matter entirely. You profited from what someone else created.

Sid did nothing right. He knew I was making them and selling them, and he knew I was doing fairly well with sales, he wanted in. He wanted a piece of my pie and so he stole my model and made copies to then steal some of my sales.

Sales which you have no legal right to lay claim to. You don't own the intellectual property, so you have no real standing to do anything about it. Same as above, you're making money by riding on the coattails of a popular film.

And as long as they are being made and sold as new on eBay this is not over.

It never began. You can make a stink about it all you like but at the end of the day there's nothing you can really do about it. Sure, maybe he was a snake for ripping off what you already copied, and sure, maybe it was less work for him to do so than starting from scratch like you did, but at the end of the day you're both going to be judged by the same rules. The only thing he's guilty of is violating an imaginary code among thieves. Would I go and buy a recast? Well, as much as i'd like to get up on my high horse and say NO WAY, I can't really answer that since i've never been in a position to buy one. I might have some kind of moral objection to it, but it's all hipocracy.

 

[racprops]

Well you ride your horse and I ride mine.

Question if you so againts any idea of fair play and so on why are you here??

All we do is rip off the studios.

That is why this place is. The RPF...

Rich

 

[Grey]

Well you ride your horse and I ride mine.

Question if you so againts any idea of fair play and so on why are you here??

All we do is rip off the studios.

That is why this place is. The RPF...

Rich

Against it? I've never said a single word about anyone stopping what they're doing, I just take an issue with people getting up on their moral highground whenever it suits them and getting back down into the mud when nobody's looking.

I come here because I love seeing what other people are able to create, you wan't to try so dearly to draw some imaginary line between you and the recasters, but there isn't one. It's all the same, they're just ripping you off and so it's hitting closer to home than when you're ripping of some big studio that seems far away and too rich to care.

 

[themanwoaname]

Well you ride your horse and I ride mine.

Question if you so againts any idea of fair play and so on why are you here??

All we do is rip off the studios.

That is why this place is. The RPF...

Rich

how is it you are making so many errors not only in judgment but in your responses? ive had to read alot of your posts a few times to get your point.

i dont believe for a second after reading your side, that had he done his own work that you feel was recasted, that you wouldnt be having this conversation now. i think truly, you're scorned because you simply had competition because you made your bread and butter making replica props. syd passed on, and now you can say whatever you want.

your victory is hollow. go you!

 

[benhs1898]

Anyone can learn the skills to copy anothers work, being creative enough to come up with an origional idea is a wholly different matter entirely. You profited from what someone else created.

You are missing the point. The point is that Coyle did research and work to recreate something that is seen on film.

Sid took a finished product and reproduced it purely for profit.

At one point I was thinking of how I would go about reproducing noisy cricket models and wanted to buy an Unobtanium model, but understanding the definition of recasting here on the RPF I will no longer pursue that.

It's about the research and the customization starting from the lowest point of screen accuracy (original parts, had sculpted parts, or closely replicated machined parts).

 

[racprops]

Do you have any idea how many have left this hobby never to return because of recasting of their work.

It can take months of hard work to create a first model and then to have someone make a copy of it and steal your work and your sales??

If you can not see the differnat between all of this, then I am talking with a blindman, and thus wasting my time.

Rich

 

[Grey]

You are missing the point. The point is that Coyle did research and work to recreate something that is seen on film.

Sid took a finished product and reproduced it purely for profit.

At one point I was thinking of how I would go about reproducing noisy cricket models and wanted to buy an Unobtanium model, but understanding the definition of recasting here on the RPF I will no longer pursue that.

It's about the research and the customization starting from the lowest point of screen accuracy (original parts, had sculpted parts, or closely replicated machined parts).

Like I said in my post, I agree there was far more work involved in what he had to do to re-create it, than what Sid had to do to outright re-cast his. However, that dosen't make it any less morally reprehensible and i'm tired of the prop community wanting to split hairs between copying/recasting from the studio and copying/recasting from another member. People only complain because it hits close to home, like noname put "it was his bread and butter" and sid cutting into that with his recast probably angered him more than the outright fact that he copied it.

 

[AJK001]

how is it you are making so many errors not only in judgment but in your responses? ive had to read alot of your posts a few times to get your point.

i dont believe for a second after reading your side, that had he done his own work that you feel was recasted, that you wouldnt be having this conversation now. i think truly, you're scorned because you simply had competition because you made your bread and butter making replica props. syd passed on, and now you can say whatever you want.

your victory is hollow. go you!

:thumbsdown