Sidkit and me, racprops

[AJK001]

A recast is a recast is a recast. There is no justification for buying a recasted item no matter how good it is.

And it dos not matter one little bit if the guy is dead or on Mars, if you can still buy it, then it is current and people need to know what is going on. If they really don't care and still want to buy a ripped off prop just because it is cheep, then it is on them and don't come off all holier than though when someone complains about it.

Why should Rich offer completed models at a cheaper price just because some thief stole his work and is selling it as a kit for a cheaper price? That is like telling Efx to sell kits of their Tricorder at half price because you can buy a kit a Rodd.com.

In case some of you haven't checked things out, Rich spent years working on his blaster and has every right to be pissed at Sid and his partner for stealing, yes stealing, his work.

 

[Too Much Garlic]

I was in talks with Sidkit about buying a Firefly Mal Reynolds gun, but then it was revealed that it was recast from the Phillipes resin cast, so I backed out. It was a nice piece, it was just against my principles.

 

[racprops]

Thanks Andy for a fair review of things...

IF this had been a trade of a old Sidkit made by Sid himself, a fan to fan trade I would not have said anything, in fact I have left all such deals alone.

BUT the thread was about buying a brand new model kit off eBay...

And as such sparked interest in fans about buying them, more recasted kits.

So as someone is still making and selling them I made a protest.

Afterall, these sales have been going on for some time, and again I have left things go..like he said left overs..but how many are there?? There seems no end to the left overs.

SD, I am not depressed, I am doing fine...mean thing to post…no love lost here…

And thanks AJK001 that is the point, I did spend years working and reworking this model and yes I am still in production.

And IF I could offer then at a cheaper price I would, but I make and sell these here in the USA, and my COSTS run more that his old selling price, and as these take all of my time to make and as I do not have a Ranch to support me, and this is not a side line or hobby, these are my life and my living.

I am one of the few that does understand marketing...I was wholesaling my models all the way back in the 80s so that my models could be bought by fans all over this country and the world. And I never undersold my dealers.

And I kept my prices at a compatible level of other models by others. Otherwise I could not have lasted over 30 years.

As I said before:
Bad enough that he had a major advantage with the cost of production within Italy, and the exchange rates and that he was a Gentleman Rancher, so this was a hobby to him and he said so, so he could undercut me big time in prices..and did, it is like competing with Hong Kong models, a unfair fight.

I think I have been more than fair, and I have left this thing alone and would have if there was not someone making new models and kits to sell of this old kit, so it is still recasting.

Rich

 

[WinstonWolf359]

A recast is a recast is a recast. There is no justification for buying a recasted item no matter how good it is.

Then I submit the only legit options for owning a Blade Runner Blaster are building a real steel blaster out of the original guns it is made from, or one of Rick Ross' guns that are sculpted from scratch.

Because if you can justify dropping the original guns in rubber for the sake of "accuracy" realize you're already justifying recasting, you've just moved the line between "good" and "bad" recasting to where it makes you comfortable enough to make or buy what you want.

 

[Lichtbringer]

T
Bad enough that he had a major advantage with the cost of production within Italy, and the exchange rates

Pardon,

i don´t care for the story "who did what" - but that argument is really funny.

Im sitting in Germany, not far away from Italy - and yes, their prices are a little bit lower than here, but: If i want something produced cheap, i don´t look for it here in the EC. Then i ship my stuff/plans to the US and have it done there, the prices are noticable lower.

Next step for cheaper production after the US would be east-europe or asia - but also more problems.

 

[rollerboi]

[edited out, Rich's answer is better and more on track than mine, which was more philosophical in nature]

Thank you so much for your writeup, Andy - in my opinion, this settles the matter right then and there and leaves the rest of us to decide what kind of behavior we want to support.

 

[racprops]

Quote:
WinstonWolf359 said:
Then I submit the only legit options for owning a Blade Runner Blaster are building a real steel blaster out of the original guns it is made from, or one of Rick Ross' guns that are sculpted from scratch.

Because if you can justify dropping the original guns in rubber for the sake of "accuracy" realize you're already justifying recasting, you've just moved the line between "good" and "bad" recasting to where it makes you comfortable enough to make or buy what you want.
End quote.

First, I had to modified those real gun parts dropped into rubber, check my article on my web site.

Second I then had to create parts from scratch.

Third: The rules have been: Steal from the studios..OK. Steal from other model makers not OK.

All prop/models makers in this hobby, no one is getting rich doing this and some barely cover their costs, so ripping off a fellow model maker hurts him and us, because many great model makers no longer will make models for sale due to the rip offs.

Forth: Recasting a studio made models is OK. They made millions off it with the film and up to now did not offer any kind of prop reproductions, only real crappy toys.

Fifth: Recasting a long dead no longer in production older model is kind of OK, it is nicer to get a permission slip..

Sixth: so is I am drawing a line, good recasting and bad recasting.

Rich

 

[racprops]

Ouote:
Lichtbringer said:
Pardon,

i don´t care for the story "who did what" - but that argument is really funny.

Im sitting in Germany, not far away from Italy - and yes, their prices are a little bit lower than here, but: If i want something produced cheap, i don´t look for it here in the EC. Then i ship my stuff/plans to the US and have it done there, the prices are noticable lower.

Next step for cheaper production after the US would be east-europe or asia - but also more problems.
End quote.

Add a country local price advantage, and in a exchange rate advantage, add in that to him it is a hobby and he could sell at a lost if he wanted to (and may have..) and add in that this happened before the current money crash…

It adds up to a major advantage…

And consider, he had a whole line of models to sell, this model was not his sole support….

I get the feeling from how his understanding of English which when from bad to good depending on which point he wanted..that he knew full well what was going on and I think he was laughing at us all.

And here is something to consider: Sidkits appeared full blown, top notched from the start.

Follow anyone life work in this hobby and most of the time you will see their growth, from early models to better work and models.

There seems to be no early models by Sid. No growth.

He started full grown.. so I have wondered if it was Sid’s work or a small local model shop doing the models for him? That all he did was hire them to make these models..

He could have waited until he was good before coming out..that is a possibility, most would have been selling early models to support their work..but it is possible.

We may never know.

Rich

 

[themanwoaname]

let me understand something here.

you recasted original pistol parts and sold a kit.
sidkit, took your pistol parts(basically no different from casting the original guns) and made some things on his own, made the kit out of metal, and improving on his own kit.

why have i heard more about a sidkit than yours? when is streyr going to be contacting you?

this recasting grey area in this community is absurd. you're just as guilty as he is.

 

[marsattack]

Rich , I have not read the threads , but here are my 2 blasters!
(Another opportunity to show off aswell!!!:love)
Sids above and yours below, both unfinished.
2 very different blasters. 2 very talented makers!
I can tell you at least 25 differences on these 2.

I have built both from scratch and have posted progress on yours as you know.
I have a question though, if THIS is your model and has not changed with the molds and so forth, Sids blaster is slightly bigger, grips are bigger etc.
I wont get into describing what better or not.
Just so I know , you claim he put yours in silicon ? or did he grab yours and resculpt it?
Like I said , I did not read the threads but is that what is in question?

 

[marsattack]

I did read about the bulldog frame, which I understand you casted it from a real one , and he of yours????
If so, the bulldog frame would be FAIR GAME to recast correct?
As this part is real?

 

[Lichtbringer]

Add a country local price advantage, and in a exchange rate advantage, add in that to him it is a hobby and he could sell at a lost if he wanted to (and may have..) and add in that this happened before the current money crash…

It adds up to a major advantage…

I´m not taking any side of the battle - i have my personal view to the whole recasting problem, as everyone here and wherever, but that doesn´t matter.

I just see no advantage from his region - as the major market for such stuff is in the US. And it was always cheaper to produce in the US than in EC, as long as i can think of (and i´m no young man anymore).


Well, his advantage to not need it for his living - thats life.

I have a nice office, with a big leather chair, that makes my income - when i master one of my kits, i do it for the fun, to relax in my shop from my daily work in the management of our company, making things from scratch. When the master is ready, i can give it away for free, for a small amount for expense allowance, or for as much as i can grab. I even can show the pics in the forums, and then, instead of let them go for casting, just glue them together - or throw them in the garbage bin.

According to you it is a big advantage that i can give them away for cheap - yes, it is. But is it a bad thing? No, not for me, i still had the fun doing the "art"part of the production. Is it bad for the casting company?, No, they can make better prices than if they had bought it from a fulltime pattern-maker. Bad for the customers? No, they get the stuff for less as if it was made from a fulltime pattern-maker (i have a eye on the casting company, so they don´t suck the advantage).

I´m sure that one or another fulltime pattern-maker hates that fact that i can do so - but is it my concern? Should i stay away from the bench, from what i love, creating things - just to please them?

The market rules it all. If someone wants a original from you, from me - he buys that. If someone has no money, he buys the best he can afford, how cheap or crap that may be - without having more money to spent, he would havn´t bought our stuff, cause he couldn´t. And if someone takes our stuff, reworks it (so he put his love and work in it, instead of just recasting it as it) and the people like his more (for what reason ever, it´s their money), then our product couldn´t stand in their eyes, othervise they would have stayed with ours.

If people love a object, they buy the best they can afford. The only thing we can do is to offer the best, or at least that with the best value for money ratio.

 

[MattMunson]

many did not care about the act of recasting, as long as they got a good model cheap.

In my experience, you have just summed up the ethical limitations of the RPF. Everyone likes to take a stand on how wrong recasting is. But the minute a recast is the only way to get something that you want, it's open season.

There's all kinds of justifications for it, and people have written hundreds of posts on how to justify their actions based on their needs.

I think the real trick is to just not let it bother you. Yes, it bothers me when it happens to my stuff, but I try not to let it. There's nothing you can actually do about it, other than make a stink and try to keep customers informed. After all, there IS the off chance that a customer will pay more for a better quality product. Though again, that has not been my experience.

 

[racprops]

Lightbringer that is a good answer, and yes I could hate for your advantage..but that is pointless...I also then have to hate everyone younger, healther, and better off that I...wait, I do...

I would say, if your going to give them away you should offer them to the model maker(s) your going to have the most impack on, say for credit and a small roylity, that would be fair...you get your fun, the hobby gets your newest model and perhaps a better model and you do not kill a hard working model maker is so doing..

I for one would welcome such a offer.

I maybe wrong about the price differances between our countries, but I have always understood that, up until now, it is in many way cheaper to live over there than here...

Not in all things, we get cheaper gosoline, and a couple of years ago a normal house was costing $200,000.00 USD...

But I am not wrong about this being his hobby, and I am not wrong about his recasting, and there were others as well.

Your way of enjoying is at lease honest, sadly his was not so honest.

Rich

Not in all things we do get cheaper gasoline...but a couple of years ago a full house was costing $200,000.00 USD.

 

[racprops]

Matt we are in total agereement on this...

I felt I need to inform the newcomers of the facts, and have done so I am settled.

Thanks for a fair minded post.

Rich

 

[Nwerke]

The market rules it all. If someone wants a original from you, from me - he buys that. If someone has no money, he buys the best he can afford, how cheap or crap that may be - without having more money to spent, he would havn´t bought our stuff, cause he couldn´t.

That was excellent.

I'm doing my best to see both sides of the debate but Lichtbringer's post sums it up for me. That's the reality of it; if you put something out there it is going to get copied. (Yes I've had it happen to me too.) Rich, I'm sure price was the bigger factor but there'd have to be Sidkit buyers who just want to build the piece themselves - are you doing yourself out of some market share by not offering kits? I would kill for a nice metal kit of this gun but have close to zero interest in a obtaining a built up, painted piece.

Also WinstonWolf's post on IP. Not sure I'd take it quite that far and Rich does have every right to complain IMO, but modified or not, I can't see why Steyr and CA wouldn't have the same right.

 

[Mr Webber]

I wonder what the guy who put together the hero, forget the name, thinks of all this?
Anyone send him a cheque lately?

 

[defstartrooper]

That was excellent.

I'm doing my best to see both sides of the debate but Lichtbringer's post sums it up for me. That's the reality of it; if you put something out there it is going to get copied. (Yes I've had it happen to me too.) Rich, I'm sure price was the bigger factor but there'd have to be Sidkit buyers who just want to build the piece themselves - are you doing yourself out of some market share by not offering kits? I would kill for a nice metal kit of this gun but have close to zero interest in a obtaining a built up, painted piece.

Also WinstonWolf's post on IP. Not sure I'd take it quite that far and Rich does have every right to complain IMO, but modified or not, I can't see why Steyr and CA wouldn't have the same right.

It would be but it's very often not a case of someone not being able to afford the original, in most cases it's people just wanting something on the cheap.
Recasters are out to make money from the stuff they sell so they're going to market their recast product at as high a price they can get away with and still be a more attractive deal than buying from the original guy.
It's not like we're ever talking about a $10 price tag for a recast and a $1,000 price tag for an original, the truth is in 99.9% of cases if someone can afford the recast they could if they really wanted to afford the original, even if it means saving up for a little bit longer.

 

[racprops]

Quote

Marsattack said:

I have built both from scratch and have posted progress on yours as you know.
I have a question though, if THIS is your model and has not changed with the molds and so forth, Sids blaster is slightly bigger, grips are bigger etc.
I wont get into describing what better or not.
Just so I know , you claim he put yours in silicon ? or did he grab yours and resculpt it?
Like I said , I did not read the threads but is that what is in question?

End Quote:

As for size, things happen, Andy stated his system cause swelling, and his Worldcon had some newer and different parts…

But he was still using my modified Bulldog and Steyr receiver and my hand made bolt etc, so other that grips and perhaps a couple of other details it was mainly still a recast of my model.

As a model maker you know you do your best, BUT little mistakes and flaws creep in and in some cases you misread the photograph your working from and make your best guess as to what is there.

I have seen a few of my little mistakes and flaws repeated by just about every version of the model Other than Rick Ross’s, and these are tells.

Rich

 

[racprops]

Join propsummet and look in the propshop.

Rich

That was excellent.

I'm doing my best to see both sides of the debate but Lichtbringer's post sums it up for me. That's the reality of it; if you put something out there it is going to get copied. (Yes I've had it happen to me too.) Rich, I'm sure price was the bigger factor but there'd have to be Sidkit buyers who just want to build the piece themselves - are you doing yourself out of some market share by not offering kits? I would kill for a nice metal kit of this gun but have close to zero interest in a obtaining a built up, painted piece.

Also WinstonWolf's post on IP. Not sure I'd take it quite that far and Rich does have every right to complain IMO, but modified or not, I can't see why Steyr and CA wouldn't have the same right.