Lichtbringer
Master Member
As you are so hot in this battle - may i sincerly ask how many Props/Kits YOU made? Not for your own, but the kind of stuff that other people can/will buy?
No offense, i´m just curious.
Sidkit and me, racprops
- Thread starter racprops
- Start date
As you are so hot in this battle - may i sincerly ask how many Props/Kits YOU made? Not for your own, but the kind of stuff that other people can/will buy?
No offense, i´m just curious.
androidandy
Sr Member
They support fans making them for themselves, not making a business out of it. Both these camps have also changed their minds on how much fan made stuff they want out there too and have basically stopped any fan made stuff from being sold at conventions.
Andy
I'm glad some of you don't care where your prop comes from as long as YOU don't have to pay too much for it and can get what you want.
I'm sick of others who complain that Rich should cut his prices just because a thief undercut him.
I've had my say and none of you who think Sid and his blaster are they next coming of you know who is going to change my mind. He was nothing but a thief and I hope he is roasting wherever he is now!
I'm sick of others who complain that Rich should cut his prices just because a thief undercut him.
I've had my say and none of you who think Sid and his blaster are they next coming of you know who is going to change my mind. He was nothing but a thief and I hope he is roasting wherever he is now!
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In the 70's I tried to get a license and his response to me was,"If you are making money, god bless you, you don't need a license. "
To some, He was the great bird, to others......:lol
To some, He was the great bird, to others......:lol
ABSOLUTELY NONE. I only buy and make things for myself and will NEVER knowingly buy something that is from a suspected recaster. I even thought about buying a few things from Sid in the past because I liked some of the things he was selling, but once I heard some of the stories about him, I decided to go elsewhere.
Is it so hard to believe that some people have ethics. I don't believe someone who purposely stole someone else's hard work and admitted it deserves to profit from it. Even if he is dead, someone connected to him is still making money on it. I don't support recasters, and again, I'm talking about the people who steal from others in this community, not the studios or the studio propmakers.
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Not in my case Gene knew quite a few people were making money off the franchise.
It was not untill way later that the STUDIOS realized how much money could be milked out of the Franchise.
It was not untill way later that the STUDIOS realized how much money could be milked out of the Franchise.
defstartrooper
Sr Member
Have you ever on any occasion whatsoever seen a studio propmaker come forward and complain about someone selling copies of a studio produced original that they built or sculpted ?
Of course you haven't because that's not how it works, they produce the piece for the studio and they are paid for their work, it's a job.
They have no financial interest in the piece, there's plenty of people here in that position of building and sculpting for studios ask any of them.
You think studio propmakers would earn more if people didn't bootleg studio production originals ?
You think they get a cut of the profits from the studios from all the licensed merchandise ?
And after all the milking found out it was not all that much...
Consider both Icons and MR both more or less failed, and MR had the money, the marketing plan, and Hong Kong cheap models with great markup!!
Do you really want to feel cheated?? Consider the $300.00 MR Classic Com, to the ST Experience Com @ $49.00 to the Diamond Select Com @ $25.00, talk about rip offs…All three seem to come out of the same factory and tooling, so why $300.00 for the first one??
And consider that MR was just about giving away their ST N. Gen Phasers; they were sell so poorly…
At lease when you pay a fan propmaker 90% goes for his cost and labor, and again none of us are getting rich doing this.
So I feel sure the studios now know this is a small collector’s hobby and not worth any more fuss, they now know how much money we are spending and it is not all that much.
Rich
Consider both Icons and MR both more or less failed, and MR had the money, the marketing plan, and Hong Kong cheap models with great markup!!
Do you really want to feel cheated?? Consider the $300.00 MR Classic Com, to the ST Experience Com @ $49.00 to the Diamond Select Com @ $25.00, talk about rip offs…All three seem to come out of the same factory and tooling, so why $300.00 for the first one??
And consider that MR was just about giving away their ST N. Gen Phasers; they were sell so poorly…
At lease when you pay a fan propmaker 90% goes for his cost and labor, and again none of us are getting rich doing this.
So I feel sure the studios now know this is a small collector’s hobby and not worth any more fuss, they now know how much money we are spending and it is not all that much.
Rich
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Grey
Sr Member
Hardly, i've said right from the beginning it was a moral objection. Not because I think it's wrong for someone to recast a studio piece and sell it, but because I don't draw a distinction between someone recasting a studio piece, and someone recasting another 'artist' on the forum.
And since some people want to keep reading imaginary words into what i'm saying, no, I don't think that means recasting another member is OK, and no, I have never knowingly bought recasted parts. I considered buying a Sidkit in the past and went elsewhere. My only stake in this issue is that all people should be judged by the same coin, instead of this recasting grey area where sometimes it's O.K, and sometimes it's not.
Spike, let me try to make it clear…
We know that: we know we are doing a slightly immoral thing and we know we are by legal standards committing copyright infringement.
We know we are thefts..it is just we crossed one line, only one line, that is we steal from the Rich/Studios and give to our selves: props…
Stealing is a funny word here, by enjoying this hobby we buy more videos and many bought Blue ray so we can see the props better, we go to more showings of a film and buy much of their legal products as well and we are not taking any money from them…
Even copyright law considers Harm, does it harm or not harm the owner, consider a parody, like Sat.Night Live’s shows making fun of Star Trek, or MAD magazine, this is call fair use and allowed.
We admit we are bad people… but we have drawn a line: do not do upon us what we do upon the studios..do not rip your fellow propmaker off.
Rich
We know that: we know we are doing a slightly immoral thing and we know we are by legal standards committing copyright infringement.
We know we are thefts..it is just we crossed one line, only one line, that is we steal from the Rich/Studios and give to our selves: props…
Stealing is a funny word here, by enjoying this hobby we buy more videos and many bought Blue ray so we can see the props better, we go to more showings of a film and buy much of their legal products as well and we are not taking any money from them…
Even copyright law considers Harm, does it harm or not harm the owner, consider a parody, like Sat.Night Live’s shows making fun of Star Trek, or MAD magazine, this is call fair use and allowed.
We admit we are bad people… but we have drawn a line: do not do upon us what we do upon the studios..do not rip your fellow propmaker off.
Rich
androidandy
Sr Member
Let me explain what I was saying to be more clear. We can not say here that it is okay to "Steal from the studio", because they can pull the plug on us at any time. They are usually cool with us because we help support the franchise, and help build fan base and therefore their market for their stuff they sell.
As far as recasting, it is an act of taking a cast original or later generation, and making a new mold and casts from it. Doing it when nobody who is involved could care less or has given permission is totally 100% okay. If however the creator is selling their stuff, and/or is a member of the underground community of these prop replica makers, than it breaks the code for this forum, and need to be signed onto by all members here. Like it or not.
Andy
As far as recasting, it is an act of taking a cast original or later generation, and making a new mold and casts from it. Doing it when nobody who is involved could care less or has given permission is totally 100% okay. If however the creator is selling their stuff, and/or is a member of the underground community of these prop replica makers, than it breaks the code for this forum, and need to be signed onto by all members here. Like it or not.
Andy
Onigiri
Sr Member
Its people that dont see the distinction that jeopardize the hobby. It cant be made any clearer. We are talking about an internal set of rules that we play by. You recast a studio piece purchased at auction and the original sculptor isnt going to leave Hollywood in a huff because you havent affected him financially. You recast someone here in the hobby who has invested time and money to sculpt or procure a piece and they simply will stop bringing those pieces to market. In this case Rich went out an purchased expensive and hard to find original gun parts to produce his masters. Sid didnt...he let Rich invest all the time and research and money in getting the original parts and simply knocked him off. Why would somebody like Rich ever feel the need again to use his research, knowledge, skills and money to bring anything to us here again when there are folks like you and manwoaname that 'see no distinction'. You try and dance around the subject and obfuscate with claims you dont really support recasting but when folks like you continually post saying,"you dont see the difference' you ARE supporting recasting. Its like that NY Imam saying he's a moderate and against terrorism but refusing to call HAMAS a terrorist organization. If you dont stand against it then you stand with it. When you make these statements you only embolden those who actually recast because they think they have a sympathetic ear.
defstartrooper
Sr Member
Appreciate that but i'm of the opinion that if someone has an objection about their property being copied i'll respect that.
If the studio has an objection that's fine i respect that, if a licensee has an objection i'll respect that.
Likewise if a garage builder has something that they have produced copied and have an objection i'll respect that too.
I see no issue with copying a studio original if the studio doesn't why would i ?
If a studio or a licensee does have an objection they can and will put a stop to it.
If a garage builder has an objection they can't put a stop to it, all they can do is look to their fellow propmakers/collectors for support in the way of boycotting the recaster.
Lichtbringer
Master Member
Pardon me, but that´s exactly what i estimated.
And that is exactly the part i don´t believe.
I know some of the producing guys, some get hit by a C&D, others stuff was recast - and usually (there is always one or another who loves to complain endless) they are angy for some days/weeks, and then they come over it. We know that we have no real rights on our stuff, that´s a part of the business, a risk we have to take. And the most accept that.
Interestingly most of the shouting comes from the fans and the collectors.
Why? Cause they are afraid to get no longer any stuff to buy/collect
It´s not ethics - it´s that they are freightened to loose the possibility to acquire stuff cause the makers refrain from doing new stuff. Thats all. Plain and simple.
I never said "don´t care", or "cut your prices" - but it´s funny to see all the lamenting, where most of the makers accept, shut up, and do another project.
And only cause i´m part of the building process, i see no need to defend our action as completly acceptable, while always the others are not.
My lines are simple
- someone who copies another work without modifications is a bad recaster (no matter if his quality is good or bad)
- someone who alters the parts to fit his own visions uses resources (as I/we use real worlds stuff to create something others from it)
- Doing this as a real income with max profit without a license is bad, doing it "from fan for fans, with a small margin just for the spend time and money" is OK, even without a license.
But i still don´t judge the other side.
As a example:
There is a shipmodel, it is a direct cast from a studiomodel(or a deformed Vader Helmet) - and someone has this cast and produces and sells 1:1 copies of the studioship, with all it´s good and it´s bad parts. And there is amarket for such stuff. I assume that is OK for you?
Now there are also people who don´t like these 1:1 copies - they want parts that look as on the screen after the PC has done its work - a heroized Version, shiny and sweet. Now there is someone who buys a cast of the deformed original, cuts it down, is making fixes, doing upgrades, and so on - makes a mold and offers casts of HIS heroized Version, remember, it´s not any longer the original version. I assume you call him a recaster? Unless the fact that he has put multiple the time in it, the 1:1 original studioship/helmet seller has put in it? And the customers who like a clean made ship have to wait forever, or buy the mess of the studiostuff-copy?
I never done that, i build from scratch, but such has happened - there is no black and no white part in this business. Mostly a dark grey.
I don´t know any of the 3 horses in this race (Rich/Sid/the guy who sells the stuff now) more than having read from them, so i take no side - but some people are to easy on judging. Esspeccially the ones that are afraid of beeing cut off from the cool toys.
Lichtbringer
Master Member
And iirr there is still the fact that JMS (Babylon 5) did exactly that at conventions. He had nothing to loose with ignoring them selling the stuff, and he still went after them.
defstartrooper
Sr Member
You're telling me JMS has no financial stake in B5 ?
Lichtbringer
Master Member
No, but as they (studio/JMS) where not offering any own stuff to the buying masses then, many say it is OK to make stuff and sell it.
And cause they don´t sold any stuff then, he had lost no money due to customers buying that not existing stuff from other competitors.
And he was still pissed as hell - and he was right, from every point of view (OK, maybe the guy who wanted to buy the stuff thinks different about that)
Too Much Garlic
Master Member
If the studio isn't okay with it they issue C&Ds and the prop maker stops producing.
Grey
Sr Member
Which is... basically exactly what i've been constantly repeating. Nobody cares untill it hits close to home. I'm not sure why you parade that around like some kind of trait you should be proud of. I guess you'll just have to forgive me for not feeling any sympathy twords money someone might be losing on here for selling a piece they never had the right to sell in the first place, no matter how much time they put into it.
Of course, defstartrooper put an interesting viewpoint into the arguement which I haden't though of, in that the origional sculptor who created _item_ was already paid a lump sum by the studio. Since he never expected to get anything else out of it after the fact, then technically he shouldn't be bothered by someone else profiting from his work. As an artist myself in a similar field of Graphic Design I have been in parallel situations, and even though i'm not losing any money since i've already been paid for my work, it bothers me to see someone profiting from my designs.
First of all, I was never a potential customer for Rich. I have moved onto the long journey of making my own props, so regardless of what I say it's not as if he would have ever had me as a customer, and I don't think he's so emotionally unbalanced as to drop everything and quit based on what some random guy on the internet whose opinion means nothing said.
I suppose that's a fair enough claim, but theres always going to be two sides to every arguement or discussion, and I would rather debate with someone and hear their reasoning then just tell everyone to shutup because we're afraid of what it may or may not do.
feek61
Sr Member
That pretty much says it all. How can you be in this hobby and not have heard of Coyle? You seem nothing more then a troll.
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