Round2 Acquires Star Wars License

I guess box scale, it is! :D
:D I think we associate "box scale" with a general criticism that the model company isn't even trying when it comes to their sci-fi offerings -- not only in terms of scale but in accuracy as well. In many cases in the past this would be true. I think what is a more accurate goal is a sense of uniformity between various subjects. I don't care what actual scale the TIE Bomber is going to be, but in choosing a size it would be nice if R2 made it similar to any of their other TIE kits. So I'm okay with "box scale" as long as there is a good faith effort to keep the subject consistent with similar subjects. I just want model companies to care about sci-fi kits with the same passion as their car or military kits.
 
I thought it was separate from quality. More along the lines of: If it fits, it ships, attitude. If it looks good and fits in the box, ship it! Sometimes looking good was definitely an option.
 
Really the ILM guys didn’t know what scale these ships were to represent, it’s sci-fi

& when Mpc & later Revell got to manufacture the kits, they had no guidance of what scale to make them at, & especially the early days with MPC, they couldn’t waste time with all that crap

Only years later with FineMolds & Bandai did anyone care to try to impose any expert measurements

J
 
My point is simple: If the new TIE is 1/32 at 13.5 inches tall, the old TIEs, at 6 inches tall, are 1/72. Simple math.

You can't have it both ways.
That, I guess, remains my question -- which old TIEs? The original 1978 MPC x1? The 1983 MPC snap Interceptor? The 1999 AMT Fighters? None of them were the same scale to each other, and none of them were 1:72. The Interceptor is closest, but still too big to be that. The 1999 AMT Fighters are more than six inches tall through the wing. The Interceptor is less. The only one that I think fits that is the x1, which I don't own, so can't measure. And since it has drastically differently shapes wings, direct height comparison is nonsensical.
 
That, I guess, remains my question -- which old TIEs? The original 1978 MPC x1? The 1983 MPC snap Interceptor? The 1999 AMT Fighters? None of them were the same scale to each other, and none of them were 1:72. The Interceptor is closest, but still too big to be that. The 1999 AMT Fighters are more than six inches tall through the wing. The Interceptor is less. The only one that I think fits that is the x1, which I don't own, so can't measure. And since it has drastically differently shapes wings, direct height comparison is nonsensical.
The 1999 AMT twin pack. If the gospel according to Jamie is 13.5 inches is 1/32 scale for a TIE fighter, that makes the 1999 AMT TIE fighters 1/72. Based on Jamie's numbers. Case closed.

Since all you want to do, is argue basic math, on to the ignore list you go.
 
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I’m not really bothered by the box- scaleishness of these kits. Especially if the kits are really nice! I’m just glad that the sci fi modeling community is finally being taken seriously and that model companies are making great kits for us to build. If only someone would make a new, or even a repop of Monograms Buck Rogers Starfighter, with a nice interior and pilot id be really happy!
 
I’m not really bothered by the box- scaleishness of these kits. Especially if the kits are really nice! I’m just glad that the sci fi modeling community is finally being taken seriously and that model companies are making great kits for us to build. If only someone would make a new, or even a repop of Monograms Buck Rogers Starfighter, with a nice interior and pilot id be really happy!

There are some really great 3D print kits out there that are worth looking into. Unlike the old Monogram kit, they have full cockpits and accurate Buck figures. If you don't have a printer, I'm sure it wouldn't be hard to find someone who'd print it for you in whatever scale you wanted.

In fact, here's one on CG Trader. Buck Rogers StarFigther Thunder Fighter STL FILE | 3D Print Model
Screen Shot 2023-06-14 at 4.38.34 PM.png
 
In his livestream Jamie said same scale as the ‘other TIES’ I took that to mean the smaller TIE and interceptor re pops.
 
That, I guess, remains my question -- which old TIEs? The original 1978 MPC x1? The 1983 MPC snap Interceptor? The 1999 AMT Fighters? None of them were the same scale to each other, and none of them were 1:72. The Interceptor is closest, but still too big to be that. The 1999 AMT Fighters are more than six inches tall through the wing. The Interceptor is less. The only one that I think fits that is the x1, which I don't own, so can't measure. And since it has drastically differently shapes wings, direct height comparison is nonsensical.

I always thought the old AMT/ERTL/MPC Twin pack (and now Round2 repop with better proportioned wings) were the same scale as the Tie Interceptor, so much so that the body/cockpit sizes are the same (hence the repop of the interceptor with the regular tie body)

What scale that actually winds up being is if course is up for debate, but they seem in scale with each other at least to me. And the MPC A-Wing seems to be similar if not matching scale. X-Wing is Fine Molds 1/48

3D4nP9R.jpg
 
Hunk,
That looks amazing, thank you for the info!
I had to do a double-take. When you shorten his "name" to "Hunk" it kind of changes things. :cautious:

But seriously, I too salivate over the Starfighter. Is that Alliance kit still available? The website hasn't changed in years.
Mike Todd
 
Numbers without context are meaningless. I was debating in good faith, but, alas, the Edgelord won't hear my counter unless one o' y'all quotes me or tells him what I said, if you feel it's relevant...

The TIE Fighter has been one of the most problematic things recreated from the get-go. The scale and the wing proportions (to themselves and to the cockpit ball) are all over the place. The studio model is assumed by many to be 1:24 because it has a 1:24 figure in it, but it can't be. That figure wasn't modeled to look like a TIE Fighter pilot, was just an unpainted gray pilot figure from one of the donor kits, and is too big for the space, plus eyeline doesn't line up. But the old official size in the '80s was based on the assumption that miniature was 1:24, and they arrived at a fore-to-aft length overall of 6.3 meters. That is also the basis of Round 2's new kit being advertised as 1:32. 1:32 is 75% of 1:24, and the Round 2 kit is 75% the height of the filming miniature.

I have some of the old models and some of the new models. I do not have others. I never got the old Darth Vader TIE Fighter, so I can't speak to its dimensions or scale. I trust the model nerds on the internet who say it's 1:32, but only provisionally. I don't know what that's based on, and I'll get to The Problem™ in a bit, here...

I do have a couple of the old MPC snap-together TIE Interceptors from 1983 (and one of the more recent Round 2 repops). Many depictions and recreations give the Interceptor misproportioned or shrunken wings compared to the studio miniatures, but this kit got it pretty close. There is no scale listed on the original box, and I can't remember if the repop box has one. But...

I also have the 1999 AMT TIE Fighter two-pack (the first commercial injection kit of the TIE Fighter released). The box says 1:48 scale, and the cockpit halves, despite being split vertically rather than horizontally (as with the MPC Interceptor), are an almost perfect overlay with the '83 kit parts, and the viewports can be used interchangeably. The wings are 12.5cm fore-to-aft. Basic math from a 6.3m official full-scale length yields about 1:50. Which is darn close to 1:48. And means both this and the above kit are that size -- if the studio miniature is 1:24. Which, as I said, it can't be.

But here's The Problem™: A never-clearly-seen unpainted and inaccurate 1:24 scale model-airplane pilot does not trump the blueprinting drawings Joe Johnston made, the sets built from those, or the animation reference from Rebels which agrees with both. There is more room in that cockpit than there can be at 1:24. From those drawings and the set, the forward viewport works out to around 1.65 meters across. (This also means a big asterisk on everything from Rogue One, because all the viewports are smaller, proportionally, than the OT ships'.) I need to go do more research to see if I can find dimensions of more of the components of the studio miniature (the rest of the wing dimensions besides height, and the viewport frame diameter would help immensely). But comparisons show a 1:32 model-airplane figure would have been a more apt drop-in. There was a reason I likened it to the differently-scaled pilot figures in the two A-Wing filming miniatures.

So with upscaling the miniature to 1:32 and going with a 1.65-meter-diameter viewport (until I can get more accurate measurements of the miniature), that makes the TIE Fighter longer than 6.3m. The figure has fluctuated, and I'd love to chase down the whys of that, but it currently sits at 7.24m. Without knowing the fore-to-aft length of the filming miniature, I can't do math to figure out what that might be derived from. I do know the largest figure for a TIE Fighter's length was over eight meters, which would be consistent with a 1:32 scale filming miniature... Since the pilot in the model was obviously not meant to be seen clearly, I do prefer to go by the consistent depiction of cockpit size from the sets, their drawings, and the animation reference bible. Going by lengths derived from overlaying cockpits and viewports, and presuming a1.65m viewport...

With the MPC Interceptor, going by the wings the kit is about 1:58, and going by the cockpit ball and viewport, it's about 1:55. I'll point out that length is accurate only if one is going by measurements derived from the studio models -- the official length is currently 88% of what it should be (which is a whole other math thing), which would skew the wing scale the other way, to about 1:50.

And the AMT TIE Fighter would also be 1:55, based on the cockpit and viewport... but the wings are a travesty. They are, as Edge said, six inches tall. If the filming miniature is a bit over 18" at the assumed 1:24 of the time, at 1:48 the AMT kit's wings should be about nine inches tall. As I said above, the fore-to-aft wing length works well enough given all the other assumptions, but that means the aspect ratio proportions are all off. Ironically, the fore-to-aft length, adjusted, would make them also 1:58, as with the Interceptor's. Bizarre place to find consistency. When I read that Round 2 fixed the wing proportions with their re-pop, I thought that meant they'd made them taller, but the height still says "6 inches", so I don't know what they did. I don't own one.

This also drops both annoyingly in the no-man's-land between 1:48 and 1:72. The closest it comes to anything is the S scale (1:64) of model railroad. They are fine for me for using for Legion setpieces, though. I may get a Round 2 TIE wing sprue to see how they differ. I also have 3D files I could print parts from if I feel the 1:58 wings are too small to be happy with. *shrug*

But there's still a problem...

Remember up top where I said wing depiction is the most inconsistent element for the TIE Fighter? The original studio miniature was a skosh over eighteen inches tall. The current official dimensions place a TIE Fighter at 7.24m long and 8.8m high (an aspect ratio, incidentally, of about 1.22:1). Since I know the height of the miniature, that would make it 1:19 scale. A 1:19 pilot wouldn't really have fit in there at all. Certainly not had the cockpit be as roomy as it's shown to be. Regardless of whether the studio model is 1:24 or 1:32, the official height is way off. If it's 1:24, the real TIE's wings would be 11 meters high. If 1:32, they would be almost 14.7m high. In neither case are they only 8.8m high. The depth seems fairly close, though. Say... aspect ratio of 1.84:1, instead.

There's an annoying dearth of square-on orthogonal pictures of the original filming miniatures where you can compare features with minimal distortion. The length seems about right, but the height seems way off -- but, further, if the wings need to be made that much taller, that throws off the proportions. That's a pretty huge difference. I'd never really delved this deep into it, and need to retire to do more research. The takeaway right now is that Round 2's 1:32 scale figure for their new kit is wholly dependent on the filming miniature being 1:24 (which it can't be). But if the studio model were more properly something like 1:32, then the new kit would be about 1:43 instead.

What all this means for the older kits I'll sort out later once I know more. But that's why it mattered to me which kits were being talked about, and what the base scale assumptions were and why.

Oh -- and if anyone wants the old low-detail Death Star base from that TIE Fighter two-pack, it's free to a good home. Never taken off its sprue.
 
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I always thought the old AMT/ERTL/MPC Twin pack (and now Round2 repop with better proportioned wings) were the same scale as the Tie Interceptor, so much so that the body/cockpit sizes are the same (hence the repop of the interceptor with the regular tie body)
Yeah, the MPC Interceptor was bigger than I remembered it being -- and the AMT Fighter wings shorter. I went back and dusted everything off and measured. The AMT TIEs aren't repops of the MPC. The latter had the cockpit halves as top and bottom, with the canopy and reactor as molded surface detail and the rear window housing being a hinged hatch. The AMT Fighter has the cockpit halves as front and back, with the rear window molded in and the canopy and reactor as separate pieces. But they are fantastically close in size, even if not in detail. It does bug me that the wings for both are underscaled to the cockpit, and that the aspect ratio of the Fighter's wings is almost as visibly off as the old Kenner toy's.

I need to see how the MPC A-Wing compares to the Bandai one. I don't have either (used to have the MPC one, but it died a slow death years ago). I appreciate that the Interceptor is ostensibly 1:48, based retroactively on the Fighter, and that the B-Wing was 1:144. I feel that can't have been accidental. A sort of... "let's see what actual scale works that will also see these fit in the boxes" sort of thing. We already went over the X- and Y-Wings over in your Red Squadron build thread...
 
It appears there was no official scale for the original studio models and Lucasfilm doesn't have official dimensions for the ships. It is up to the manufacturers to interpret inconsistent information to produce a product at a listed scale. Different people will interpret the data differently. Unfortunatly the size of the pilot figure can't be relied on.

I would think the best guide is to compare the sizes of the ships when they appear close to each other on screen. At least that should help get the sizes consistent relative to each other. The size of the models is irrelevant to the size of the ships in universe.
 
I need to see how the MPC A-Wing compares to the Bandai one. I don't have either (used to have the MPC one, but it died a slow death years ago).


MPC A-Wing is larger than the Bandai, probably closest to 1/48 where the Bandai one is probably in the 1/57 or so range

I actually wound up using the Tie Interceptor pilot as my A-Wing pilot as it was better looking than the actual kits pilot and slightly larger to fill more of the cockpit like the filming model. The old Tie Interceptor pilot in no way looked like either Tie pilot, not the studio model pilot

I forgot to get a pic of him before painting, but found this one here (although with a slightly altered helmet)

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The Interceptor also came with those landing gear. Wonder if they made it into the repop?

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Didn't Bandai (or perhaps first FineMolds) take the measurements of the Studio Models of the X-wing, Y-wing and TIE Fighter, interpret them as 1/24, then determine the rest of their scales from that?

They had to have a baseline to start with.

TazMan2000
 
Didn't Bandai (or perhaps first FineMolds) take the measurements of the Studio Models of the X-wing, Y-wing and TIE Fighter, interpret them as 1/24, then determine the rest of their scales from that?

They had to have a baseline to start with.

TazMan2000
I'm pretty sure Bandai used the offical numbers from Lucasfilm/starwars.com
 
MPC A-Wing is larger than the Bandai, probably closest to 1/48 where the Bandai one is probably in the 1/57 or so range
I'm in the "larger A-Wing camp", and like that Bandai went by the one with the smaller, non-animated pilot figure, to set theirs at 1:72. Maybe that makes the MPC kit close to the 1:63 of the snap X-Wing? I never understood MPC not bothering to make figures for their model kits that even slightly resembled who they were supposed to be. Like the random spaceman for the Millennium Falcon. What? (Okay, the TIE x1 had a Vader figure, in a D&D temple statue sort of way...)

Sadly, the re-pop doesn't have the landing legs. I was hoping to use them for another project. Why I went and got another vintage one. One thing I do like about Round 2's re-pops is that the clear parts are now clear, where they were smoked in the original kits.

It appears there was no official scale for the original studio models and Lucasfilm doesn't have official dimensions for the ships. It is up to the manufacturers to interpret inconsistent information to produce a product at a listed scale. Different people will interpret the data differently. Unfortunatly the size of the pilot figure can't be relied on.
The size of the full-size cockpit is probably the best metric. Even the physical ship setpieces can be questionable. The Viper on BSG was infamous for having to be shot from only certain angles due to how they'd so drastically foreshortened the nose. But the cockpits have known dimensions and the human actors to measure them against. Barring things like the ANH to ESB upsizing of the Falcon's cockpit (why Lucas thought a cramped cockpit was a good idea, I do not know).

Lucasfilm does have sizes for many of its ships, but one has to see the methodology to be able to trust it. The pilots in the X- and Y-Wing fighters being 1:24 works well. They were more deliberate in sizing the Millennium Falcon, Slave I, and Tantive IV, as well as the A- and B-Wing fighters in ROTJ. The TIEs being 1:24 doesn't work, though, and so their sizes have been all over the place in official sources and on the web site for decades.

I would think the best guide is to compare the sizes of the ships when they appear close to each other on screen. At least that should help get the sizes consistent relative to each other. The size of the models is irrelevant to the size of the ships in universe.
That, unfortunately, definitely doesn't work. There can be a lot of consistency, but then one or another shot throw doubt in. Vader's ship was out in front of his wingmen's, so his ship looks bigger compared to theirs than it actually is, as one for-instance. Composite shots filmed separately, but set against the same background can screw up scale estimates. See the "giant blockade runner" in ROTJ.
 
Didn't Bandai (or perhaps first FineMolds) take the measurements of the Studio Models of the X-wing, Y-wing and TIE Fighter, interpret them as 1/24, then determine the rest of their scales from that?

They had to have a baseline to start with.

TazMan2000

Fantasy Flight Games did that when they were developing the X-Wing game miniature scales. They claimed the previous materials were incorrect and they basically revised/set the Ties "official" size under the premise that the studio model is 1/24 scale based on the pilot figure used in it and the size of the full size set piece. That became canon and Bandai followed along

this a a blurb from the end of the rulebook for the game regarding the scale

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Previously Fine Molds and MPC scales were based on a "full size" tie measurements that worked out to a roughly 1/16 size studio model. As a result, anything using the newer revised numbers will result in a larger size model at the same scale compared to the older numbers
 
*sigh* Swell. *gathers up Bandai TIE kits to re-home* 3D printing it is, then. They can't be 1:24. They can be 1:16 even less. They have to be somewhere in the 1:32 to 1:35 range for the cockpit set to work. I'm trying to nail down the diameter of the studio miniature viewport frame to be able to do some proper number-crunching...
 
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