Rinzler's "The Making of Star Wars: Return of the Jedi"

[Treadwell]

great post.

 

[Michael Bergeron]

It may sound unfair, but rings quite true. No matter how hard they worked, they just didn't have the artistic chops to execute at the same level that we saw in the OT. You watch all the behind the scenes docs on the production...sets, costumes, props, masks, even the Vader helmet and you come away asking how they could have gotten so much so wrong with so much effort and as many resources as you could hope for. Lucas is ultimately to blame, but the level of artistry just was not as apparent in the production of the PT as it was in the OT.

I completely disagree. You look at the artistry in the PT and it's clear that there is a ****load of artistic talent there, equal to that of the OT in many ways. The problem? It doesn't match the OT look. The Mona Lisa is a fantastic painting but it doesn't match a Van Gogh no matter how hard you try. The resources are a big problem with this because it's difficult to make that OT look without having to dive into the trash bin. There were a lot of happy accidents in the OT that have become iconic. Those accidents are much rarer in today's prop world.

I recall watching some PT behind the scenes stuff where GL overlooks fantastic designs and picks stylistically inferior ones because he doesn't want it to look like the OT. I don't blame the artists for inferior work, I blame them and others not questioning George's decisions. A creative process has to go both ways and that didn't happen on any significant level.

 

[Bryancd]

I completely disagree. You look at the artistry in the PT and it's clear that there is a ****load of artistic talent there, equal to that of the OT in many ways. The problem? It doesn't match the OT look. The Mona Lisa is a fantastic painting but it doesn't match a Van Gogh no matter how hard you try. The resources are a big problem with this because it's difficult to make that OT look without having to dive into the trash bin. There were a lot of happy accidents in the OT that have become iconic. Those accidents are much rarer in today's prop world.

I recall watching some PT behind the scenes stuff where GL overlooks fantastic designs and picks stylistically inferior ones because he doesn't want it to look like the OT. I don't blame the artists for inferior work, I blame them and others not questioning George's decisions. A creative process has to go both ways and that didn't happen on any significant level.

Exactly right. I have seen all the documentaries and behind the scenes content and not once did any if those involved in production, design, art direction, or costuming strike me as phoning it in! Without a doubt the OT was t likely the beneficiary of improvisation being the mother of inspiration.

 

[DaddyfromNaboo]

The simplicity is what makes those earlier concepts so beautiful, believable and fitting. The PT is a mess.

 

[Michael Bergeron]

The simplicity is what makes those earlier concepts so beautiful, believable and fitting. The PT is a mess.

While I totally agree that's very different to saying that the people involved in the PT didn't have the artistic chops. For instance, this design:



Is brilliant. Simple, slick, creative.

The problem? Doesn't really fit into the universe of the OT. Is that the fault of the artist? No, not really, the artist is there to fire out ideas. There's plenty of RMQ and JJ concept artwork that never would have worked in the OT but they produced it anyway because while it was their job to throw out the ideas it was someone elses job to pick which ones made it on screen. THAT'S the position that's to blame for an inconsistent look and it's primarily GL.

Where you can spread the blame is that, as mentioned before, nobody else thought to question him.

 

[Stormy320]

It may sound unfair, but rings quite true. No matter how hard they worked, they just didn't have the artistic chops to execute at the same level that we saw in the OT. You watch all the behind the scenes docs on the production...sets, costumes, props, masks, even the Vader helmet and you come away asking how they could have gotten so much so wrong with so much effort and as many resources as you could hope for. Lucas is ultimately to blame, but the level of artistry just was not as apparent in the production of the PT as it was in the OT.

Getting back to the what-ifs that the notes from the Rinzler book raise...the image of the Jedi. We're given very little to go on in the OT regarding who and what it was that the Jedi actually were, which is probably one the greatest aspects of the OT. Like Boba Fett, the allure is really in what we DON'T know, which is what was completely destroyed in the PT. Growing up, I know that nobody I knew saw the Jedi as robe wearing monks. We thought they were warriors. We didn't see Obi-wan's garb as the formal wear of the Jedi at all. We just figured that was how poor people on Tatooine dressed...like Owen Lars. So, to see in the PT that Lucas had chosen a bathrobe as the best all-around wardrobe choice for the Jedi for any occasion or environment...deep sea diving, piloting a fighter, full-scale military combat or one-on-one saber combat, was disappointing and perplexing in the extreme.

The Jedi are Knights, of course, but that doesn't relegate them to a perpetual ceremonial wardrobe. Were a knight to serve in the military, they'd wear the same uniform as anyone else. The lightsaber on their belt would really be the only indicator that they were a Jedi. Maybe a cape worn over the uniform under proper circumstances. I also had the impression that being a Jedi wasn't necessarily a lifelong distinction ala Obi-wan's admission to Luke, "I was once a Jedi Knight, the same as your father". That created the impression that they were an elite group like SEALS or something where you served for a time or perhaps could choose to make it your career. But, he was clearly speaking in the past tense and never once describes himself as still being a Jedi.

The most Jedi-like character in the PT that bares any resemblance to the rough sketch of what a Jedi was that we were given in the OT was the one killed off in the first prequel, Qui Gon. Neeson did a great job portraying a thinking man's gentle wisdom, fallibility and the placid focus of a samurai during combat who has fully embraced his mortality and the temporal nature of his own existence. We got a small taste of what a Jedi could be only to have it snatched away and replaced with the Marvel superhero nonsense of the two remaining films.

Knowing what a fan Abrams is of the OT, one can only hope that the creative team on the new films is pouring over these old notes and sketches to inform the shape that things will take in the new trilogy. He may literally be the "new hope".

Excellent analysis. I agree 100%.

 

[ghostryder]

http://io9.com/storyboards-reveal-the-amazing-star-wars-prequel-you-ne-510134498

 

[DaddyfromNaboo]

...
Where you can spread the blame is that, as mentioned before, nobody else thought to question him.

I think the problem was that GL did not have to answer to anyone! There simply was nobody who was in a position to question him, because he was omnipotent. Since a movie usually is an artistic and creative collaboration, with the director most often merely has a vague idea of what he wants, if the creatives are just lackeys that churn our designs until the great, wise director approves them, then where is the creative process born out of collaboration and discourse?

GL did not have an opposite to rub against, and even if he did, like with Steven Spielberg and IIRC the first showing of TPM, where Steven said a few critical things, and in the end GL changed those things BACK because he liked them the way they were. It seems like he stopped listening to others. I mean, what screen writer in their right mind wouldn´t have balked at the mess that TPM was? He violated basic rules of screen writing.
With ANH and ESB he went to people who helped POLISH the script. Changing it from a series of events without depth to a really compelling story, where every little scene moves the story forward. And now look at TPM? What do we have here? A series of events without depth !!! If you take the first drafts of Star Wars and compare them to the final draft for TPM, then you should see that there are many, many similarities regarding the narrative structure. GL is neither a screen writer nor a story teller. He is a conceptionist, and a brilliant one. But bringing depth to characters, making them loveable and a story compelling? No, that´s not his cup of tea.

 

[Michael Bergeron]

I think the problem was that GL did not have to answer to anyone! There simply was nobody who was in a position to question him, because he was omnipotent. Since a movie usually is an artistic and creative collaboration, with the director most often merely has a vague idea of what he wants, if the creatives are just lackeys that churn our designs until the great, wise director approves them, then where is the creative process born out of collaboration and discourse?

GL did not have an opposite to rub against, and even if he did, like with Steven Spielberg and IIRC the first showing of TPM, where Steven said a few critical things, and in the end GL changed those things BACK because he liked them the way they were. It seems like he stopped listening to others. I mean, what screen writer in their right mind wouldn´t have balked at the mess that TPM was? He violated basic rules of screen writing.
With ANH and ESB he went to people who helped POLISH the script. Changing it from a series of events without depth to a really compelling story, where every little scene moves the story forward. And now look at TPM? What do we have here? A series of events without depth !!! If you take the first drafts of Star Wars and compare them to the final draft for TPM, then you should see that there are many, many similarities regarding the narrative structure. GL is neither a screen writer nor a story teller. He is a conceptionist, and a brilliant one. But bringing depth to characters, making them loveable and a story compelling? No, that´s not his cup of tea.

thumbsupthumbsup

We are in agreement! He created a situation where he was so high on a pedestal that nobody could contribute creative discourse in a critical way.

 

[Jedi-72]

I always thought that there were more Jedi in hiding throughout the Empire, laying in wait, rather like disgraced Samurai waiting to avenge the death of their Master. Their discipline, honor and dedication to the ideals of the Republic would have mandated their suffering in secret until the time when someone with strength and power enough to lead them once again would be revealed.

You may call me crazy for this, but I also always got the impression that Boba Fett had once been a Jedi. He has a familiarity with Vader, a confidence in the way he addresses him, a swagger that nobody else displays. He doesn't fear Vader. Why? Vader also tolerates the brazenness of Fett without so much as a word. Why? Nobody else is afforded this level of "respect" by Vader. There is respect in the way Vader interacts with Fett, but also a little condescension. Like when he says, "He's all yours...Bounty Hunter". He says it with contempt, yet he treats Fett with a certain respect. Over the years my impression became that Fett had once been a Jedi or perhaps a Learner who came up with Anakin at the same time and who perhaps began to part ways with Jedi dogma as he began to see things starting to deteriorate. Perhaps they had been friends and someone who Anakin trusted and had enlisted during the purge to aid him in hunting down Jedi. Maybe he was even there when Anakin and Obi-wan had their final battle. And with Anakin left for dead, maybe it had been Fett who had rescued Anakin from certain death, severely injuring himself in the process, though not suffering the crippling wounds that Anakin had. Maybe that was why the raspy voice in ESB. Maybe that was why the armour To conceal the scars. And maybe that was why Vader tolerated the sass from this "bounty hunter". And perhaps Vader's chiding "bounty hunter" remark is a disapproving insult since he knows who and what Fett was and what he could have been had he followed Anakin's path rather than walk the path of hired gun to the scum of the galaxy, a dishonorable pursuit for someone who maybe even himself, could have been Vader under different circumstances. I know it's a lot to read into a precious few moments on screen. But, there IS subtext there. So much fun to chew on.

 

[Bigdaddy]

I like that ALOT more than what we got in the PT :thumbsup :cool

 

[Michael Bergeron]

You may call me crazy for this, but I also always got the impression that Boba Fett had once been a Jedi. He has a familiarity with Vader, a confidence in the way he addresses him, a swagger that nobody else displays. He doesn't fear Vader. Why? Vader also tolerates the brazenness of Fett without so much as a word. Why? Nobody else is afforded this level of "respect" by Vader. There is respect in the way Vader interacts with Fett, but also a little condescension. Like when he says, "He's all yours...Bounty Hunter". He says it with contempt, yet he treats Fett with a certain respect. Over the years my impression became that Fett had once been a Jedi or perhaps a Learner who came up with Anakin at the same time and who perhaps began to part ways with Jedi dogma as he began to see things starting to deteriorate. Perhaps they had been friends and someone who Anakin trusted and had enlisted during the purge to aid him in hunting down Jedi. Maybe he was even there when Anakin and Obi-wan had their final battle. And with Anakin left for dead, maybe it had been Fett who had rescued Anakin from certain death, severely injuring himself in the process, though not suffering the crippling wounds that Anakin had. Maybe that was why the raspy voice in ESB. Maybe that was why the armour To conceal the scars. And maybe that was why Vader tolerated the sass from this "bounty hunter". And perhaps Vader's chiding "bounty hunter" remark is a disapproving insult since he knows who and what Fett was and what he could have been had he followed Anakin's path rather than walk the path of hired gun to the scum of the galaxy, a dishonorable pursuit for someone who maybe even himself, could have been Vader under different circumstances. I know it's a lot to read into a precious few moments on screen. But, there IS subtext there. So much fun to chew on.

My first reaction to your opening line was "yes, you're crazy". :lol

But that is an interesting read of the subtext! :thumbsup Good read.

 

[Stormy320]

I always thought that there were more Jedi in hiding throughout the Empire, laying in wait, rather like disgraced Samurai waiting to avenge the death of their Master. Their discipline, honor and dedication to the ideals of the Republic would have mandated their suffering in secret until the time when someone with strength and power enough to lead them once again would be revealed.

You may call me crazy for this, but I also always got the impression that Boba Fett had once been a Jedi. He has a familiarity with Vader, a confidence in the way he addresses him, a swagger that nobody else displays. He doesn't fear Vader. Why? Vader also tolerates the brazenness of Fett without so much as a word. Why? Nobody else is afforded this level of "respect" by Vader. There is respect in the way Vader interacts with Fett, but also a little condescension. Like when he says, "He's all yours...Bounty Hunter". He says it with contempt, yet he treats Fett with a certain respect. Over the years my impression became that Fett had once been a Jedi or perhaps a Learner who came up with Anakin at the same time and who perhaps began to part ways with Jedi dogma as he began to see things starting to deteriorate. Perhaps they had been friends and someone who Anakin trusted and had enlisted during the purge to aid him in hunting down Jedi. Maybe he was even there when Anakin and Obi-wan had their final battle. And with Anakin left for dead, maybe it had been Fett who had rescued Anakin from certain death, severely injuring himself in the process, though not suffering the crippling wounds that Anakin had. Maybe that was why the raspy voice in ESB. Maybe that was why the armour To conceal the scars. And maybe that was why Vader tolerated the sass from this "bounty hunter". And perhaps Vader's chiding "bounty hunter" remark is a disapproving insult since he knows who and what Fett was and what he could have been had he followed Anakin's path rather than walk the path of hired gun to the scum of the galaxy, a dishonorable pursuit for someone who maybe even himself, could have been Vader under different circumstances. I know it's a lot to read into a precious few moments on screen. But, there IS subtext there. So much fun to chew on.

Sounds more interesting than what we got. The Jango Fett father of Boba was ...well... cute.

 

[Wakeem]

Dooku uses Force lightning like it's nothing

When that happened and Obi-Wan simply blocked it with his lightsaber I knew for certain things were wrong with the prequels. It makes Luke look dumb now in Return of the Jedi for tossing his lightsaber.

 

[Sluis Van Shipyards]

When that happened and Obi-Wan simply blocked it with his lightsaber I knew for certain things were wrong with the prequels. It makes Luke look dumb now in Return of the Jedi for tossing his lightsaber.

That was still dumb to me as a 6 year old watching it in the theater in '83!

 

[Wakeem]

That was still dumb to me as a 6 year old watching it in the theater in '83!

I didn't really get it when I was young. Actually I didn't get it till fairly recently. I read the old novel and searched around the Internet. In the book, Luke actually attempts to block the lightning but he isn't strong enough. That's another reason why Yoda looks bad now from the prequels to originals. He doesn't tell Luke to watch out for that Force Lightning. If I remember correctly, Luke shows surprise when the Emperor uses the Force to remove his handcuffs. But I don't know if the book mentions that the surprise is because the Emperor uses the Force or just that he's removing the handcuffs.

 

[Jedi-72]

Re: Rinzler's "The Making of Star Wars: Return of the Jedi"

That's another reason why Yoda looks bad now from the prequels to originals. He doesn't tell Luke to watch out for that Force Lightning.

Since the prequels never happened, Yoda looks just fine.

 

[jme3]

Knowing what a fan Abrams is of the OT, one can only hope that the creative team on the new films is pouring over these old notes and sketches...

...and these threads on the rpf for insight into exactly what makes for good Star Wars... :cool

 

[Wakeem]

Re: Rinzler's "The Making of Star Wars: Return of the Jedi"

Since the prequels never happened, Yoda looks just fine.

I try to forget the prequels too. But there are a few good things that came out of them like Obi-Wan's new lightsaber design. I have that prop. But far more harm than good came out of the prequels.

 

[wizardofthenorth]

The Making of Star Wars (Enhanced Edition)
Amazon.com: The Making of Star Wars (Enhanced Edition) eBook: J. W. Rinzler: Kindle Store

Has anyone tried the kindle enhanced edition (e-book)? Enough new material over the hardcover to warrant a purchase?

Thanks