Rinzler's "The Making of Star Wars: Return of the Jedi"

[Wakeem]

I knew you guys would pick up on this story. I can't wait to get this book. Jedi is my favorite Star Wars movie. I remember George Lucas saying some of this stuff even around the time of Episode 1. Specifically the thing about Yoda not fighting. To me, it was like Yoda was better than that. Stronger in that he wouldn't need a lightsaber just like the Emperor doesn't use one in Return of the Jedi. Even the continuity bits with Anakin and the family and Leia remembering her mother. This was the stuff that made me excited for the prequels. I can't believe George Lucas didn't reference his original notes and decided to go on this strange tangent.

Also, on the whole Yoda teaching thing. Remember Obi-Wan started teaching Luke the more physical stuff. Yoda was trying to teach the internal stuff. Especially the importance of defense first. Which most of the original lightsaber fighting was. It's kind of like when I was learning fencing. I was mostly into defending and attacking only when I wore a person down and saw opportunity. I wasn't doing all these crazy moves like in the prequels. Even though those moves look cool.

 

[Probe Droid]

Some pix from the book here:
5 Exclusive Photos from 'The Making of Star Wars: Return of the Jedi' | Photos | Hollywood.com

 

[Jedi-72]

That picture of McDiarmid sans hood in the Palpy makeup is great. Even the makeup was better executed on the originals. It's really amazing the contrasts between the two trilogies.

 

[TheRealMcFly]

I was generalizing there, not being specific to Yoda/Luke. I meant that a chef who can't taste can't teach you how to make good food. Likewise a martial arts master, needs to know how to employ the techniques he's teaching, or you can't trust that they work or are effective.

They did film Yoda training Luke on Dagobah with the lightsaber for ESB but it was cut from the film.

But I am glad they left it out. Now JJ, please leave midichlorians out of the new ones. Could never believe why George decided to add this obvious limiting factor in potential to his movies which were for kids?

I'm not through making of ESB yet...

 

[blewis17]

They did film Yoda training Luke on Dagobah with the lightsaber for ESB but it was cut from the film.

But I am glad they left it out. Now JJ, please leave midichlorians out of the new ones. Could never believe why George decided to add this obvious limiting factor in potential to his movies which were for kids?

I'm not through making of ESB yet...

Yep... some of the footage is on the Blu-ray. Not much there, just Hamill swinging away with his saber.

 

[SuperFLY]

Ya, the Jedi Master thing threw me. Although I'm a firm believer that we never should have seen Yoda wield a lightsaber. If he fought it should have been with the force, not a blade.

As for the martial artist and chef example I don't think that's entirely valid. Yoda never once instructed Luke how to fight. As a matter of fact one of the first things he tells him is that wars don't make one great. The one time that Luke picks up his lightsaber on Dagobah Yoda tells him he doesn't need it so I see where GL was coming from.

What Yoda DID teach, and obviously from a point of knowledge was how to be more in tune with the force. He was certainly a Jedi. :lol

interestingly it does keep true to the original 'ethos'. the jedi were never meant to be 'warriors' they used the force for peace and protection.

the lightsaber was a 'sith' invention the jedi adopted through necessity to fight them but using a lightsaber is not the jedi way.

(this does make the emperor's comment 'ah yes, a jedi's weapon' in rotj a bit weird though)

 

[Bigdaddy]

interestingly it does keep true to the original 'ethos'. the jedi were never meant to be 'warriors' they used the force for peace and protection.

the lightsaber was a 'sith' invention the jedi adopted through necessity to fight them but using a lightsaber is not the jedi way.

(this does make the emperor's comment 'ah yes, a jedi's weapon' in rotj a bit weird though)

I never heard the Sith invented lightsabers, also doesn't Obi refer to Jedi Knights in SW? Knights in earth history have never been known for peacefulness, unless you look at it from a "certain point of view"

 

[Michael Bergeron]

I never heard the Sith invented lightsabers, also doesn't Obi refer to Jedi Knights in SW? Knights in earth history have never been known for peacefulness, unless you look at it from a "certain point of view"

The Sith invention I had never heard of either so I'm guessing it's EU. From the OT I always assumed that the Sith didn't use lightsabers and the only reason Vader had one was because he was a fallen Jedi. That kind of made him unique and a bad ass. The representation of what Luke could become and the fate of any Jedi who falls from grace.

I also assumed that once one got to a certain level of being "in tune" with the Force (either dark or light) they no longer had need for weapons as evidence of Yoda not having a lightsaber and focusing his teaching on becoming one with the Force. Also evidence in the Emperor using Force lightning to finish off Luke.

The PT changed almost all of that though. Yoda and the Emperor wield a lightsaber, Dooku uses Force lightning like it's nothing, every Sith has a red lightsaber.

Last but not least I always saw the Jedi as being peacekeepers more than anything else, using their lightsabers as a last resort. Take the examples from the OT:

- First use Ben tries to diffuse the situation by saying Luke "isn't worth it" and offering to buy a drink. It isn't until a gun is drawn that he pulls out the saber and removes the threat. Immediately returning the hilt to his belt.

- Two Jedi face off against each other, lightsaber is the weapon of choice.

- Yoda places no emphasis on use of the lightsaber in his training.

- Two Jedi face off against each other, lightsaber is the weapon of choice.

- Luke uses his lightsaber to defend himself from an immediate threat of the Wampa attacking.

- Luke tries to diffuse the situation with Jabba first and doesn't even have his saber with him until R2 launches it.

- When on Endor Luke doesn't charge in lightsaber swirling, he uses it sparingly to deflect shots.

- Luke is tempted with his lightsaber by the Emperor. Him using it is the potential gateway to the Dark Side. Him tossing it aside is a confirmation that he's choosing the way of the Light Side.

Now, one could argue, rightly so, that the effects budget in the OT didn't include a lightsaber in every shot. But that limitation created an atmosphere where a Jedi uses his weapon sparingly. Contrast that with the PT and Jedi lighting up their sabers every time they hear a loud noise and it paints a different, much more militant, picture.

 

[SuperFLY]

perhaps saying they invented them was over stating the matter, they made them more usable.

the origins of the lightsaber started as a rakata invention; forcesaber/protosaber or frozen blaster but required huge power and the first lightsabers required users to have a belt mounted power pack. they were also quite unstable.

the sith improved the design and make it a more effective killing tool.

that said, most sith still preferred the use of swords

"Although lightsabers are a superior weapon, there is still nothing quite as satisfying as feeling the warm spray of blood when one cleaves through one's enemy with a real sword."
―Komok-Da[src]

i guess when the jedi started using lightsabers as well the sith had to.. a blade is no good against a lightsaber that'll just cut it in half

this was all pre-cursor to the old republic and the sith wars so i guess you could call it EU.

there's only so much you can read into from the OT but agreed with the above

 

[Bigdaddy]

Re: Rinzler's "The Making of Star Wars: Return of the Jedi"

The Sith invention I had never heard of either so I'm guessing it's EU. From the OT I always assumed that the Sith didn't use lightsabers and the only reason Vader had one was because he was a fallen Jedi. That kind of made him unique and a bad ass. The representation of what Luke could become and the fate of any Jedi who falls from grace.

I also assumed that once one got to a certain level of being "in tune" with the Force (either dark or light) they no longer had need for weapons as evidence of Yoda not having a lightsaber and focusing his teaching on becoming one with the Force. Also evidence in the Emperor using Force lightning to finish off Luke.

The PT changed almost all of that though. Yoda and the Emperor wield a lightsaber, Dooku uses Force lightning like it's nothing, every Sith has a red lightsaber.

Last but not least I always saw the Jedi as being peacekeepers more than anything else, using their lightsabers as a last resort. Take the examples from the OT:

- First use Ben tries to diffuse the situation by saying Luke "isn't worth it" and offering to buy a drink. It isn't until a gun is drawn that he pulls out the saber and removes the threat. Immediately returning the hilt to his belt.

- Two Jedi face off against each other, lightsaber is the weapon of choice.

- Yoda places no emphasis on use of the lightsaber in his training.

- Two Jedi face off against each other, lightsaber is the weapon of choice.

- Luke uses his lightsaber to defend himself from an immediate threat of the Wampa attacking.

- Luke tries to diffuse the situation with Jabba first and doesn't even have his saber with him until R2 launches it.

- When on Endor Luke doesn't charge in lightsaber swirling, he uses it sparingly to deflect shots.

- Luke is tempted with his lightsaber by the Emperor. Him using it is the potential gateway to the Dark Side. Him tossing it aside is a confirmation that he's choosing the way of the Light Side.

Now, one could argue, rightly so, that the effects budget in the OT didn't include a lightsaber in every shot. But that limitation created an atmosphere where a Jedi uses his weapon sparingly. Contrast that with the PT and Jedi lighting up their sabers every time they hear a loud noise and it paints a different, much more militant, picture.

The PT did change things quite a bit, but before they came out I viewed the Jedi we see in the OT as unique remnants of a shattered order. Ben is war-weary "knight" that has spent the better part of 2 decades contemplating the consequences of his past actions during his "military" career. His teachings are unique (as shown by what we see in the PT) with Luke, as well as his reluctance to resort to violence in the OT. I also never thought of the Sith as having lightsabers unti the PT. The only Sith we saw in the OT never had one, and as pointed out, even he refers to it as a Jedi's weapon. As you said, it made Vader seem like even more of a BA. I figured Yoda never used a saber because A: he never fights in the OT, and B: he was a puppet, and the limitations at the time would have made it look terrible ! I would have liked to see a scene in ESB with him training Luke with his saber, I always wondered who taught him to use it, Obi had a pretty small window of opportunity for physical training with Luke. :lol

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The only knowledge of Rakata I have is from KOTOR, but I view the EU as daydreaming, not canon.

 

[Stormy320]

That picture of McDiarmid sans hood in the Palpy makeup is great. Even the makeup was better executed on the originals. It's really amazing the contrasts between the two trilogies.

The brilliance of the originals was achieved by all the talent behind the scenes that had a passion to get it right (such as Joe Johnson) and many others. George surrounded himself with the wrong people for the prequels.

 

[Bryancd]

The brilliance of the originals was achieved by all the talent behind the scenes that had a passion to get it right (such as Joe Johnson) and many others. George surrounded himself with the wrong people for the prequels.

I don't think that's fair to the people who produced the prequels. What would be more on point is GL surrounded himself with very talented people and then ignored them and they were too afraid to speak up!

 

[Michael Bergeron]

Re: Rinzler's "The Making of Star Wars: Return of the Jedi"

there's only so much you can read into from the OT but agreed with the above

True, but it's still the basis of the franchise and was the sole canon for 25 years.

I figured Yoda never used a saber because B: he was a puppet, and the limitations at the time would have made it look terrible !

Modern technology didn't help it. Still looked terrible!

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I don't think that's fair to the people who produced the prequels. What would be more on point is GL surrounded himself with very talented people and then ignored them and they were too afraid to speak up!

I agree. There were LOADS of very talented people who worked on the prequels. Unfortunately by that point Lucas was really "too big" to question or at least gave that aura. It also seems to me that he was less open to critique that he was with the OT.

 

[Stormy320]

I don't think that's fair to the people who produced the prequels. What would be more on point is GL surrounded himself with very talented people and then ignored them and they were too afraid to speak up!

Yea- you're right. It's too bad he didn't get the "band" back together. To your point, Ben Burtt did his part!

 

[clancampbell]

I still can't get over the simple fact that Jedi KNIGHTS, turned out to be self serving Jedi MONKS......GL didn't even listen to his own description......

Monks are robe wearing-quasi religeous "count-me-out" hooded-mystery-dudes.....their bosses sequesterd in out of the way towers..........Knights.....well....aren't they supposed to ride into battle for the good of the downtrodden, use their own codes and good judgment for the betterment of others???codes of Conduct and Chivalry were their by-words......????? I honestly think George must have gotten the wrong idea...or forgot about the KNIGHT part completely..............

Rich

 

[Michael Bergeron]

I still can't get over the simple fact that Jedi KNIGHTS, turned out to be self serving Jedi MONKS......GL didn't even listen to his own description......

Monks are robe wearing-quasi religeous "count-me-out" hooded-mystery-dudes.....their bosses sequesterd in out of the way towers..........Knights.....well....aren't they supposed to ride into battle for the good of the downtrodden, use their own codes and good judgment for the betterment of others???codes of Conduct and Chivalry were their by-words......????? I honestly think George must have gotten the wrong idea...or forgot about the KNIGHT part completely..............

Rich

Agree completely. They are knights who hold themselves to a high standard only using lethal force when necessary to defend the innocent.

 

[Bigdaddy]

Like this guy Jedi-Knight

 

[Michael Bergeron]

OMG...

By that logic Picard was a Jedi!!!! :lol

 

[Sluis Van Shipyards]

The Sith invention I had never heard of either so I'm guessing it's EU. From the OT I always assumed that the Sith didn't use lightsabers and the only reason Vader had one was because he was a fallen Jedi. That kind of made him unique and a bad ass. The representation of what Luke could become and the fate of any Jedi who falls from grace.

I think they're referring to the comment in the Dark Lord: Rise of Darth Vader novel, but that's backwards. Sidious tells Vader:
"The Sith grew past the use of lightsabers. But we continue to use them, if only to humiliate the Jedi."

 

[Jedi-72]

I don't think that's fair to the people who produced the prequels. What would be more on point is GL surrounded himself with very talented people and then ignored them and they were too afraid to speak up!

It may sound unfair, but rings quite true. No matter how hard they worked, they just didn't have the artistic chops to execute at the same level that we saw in the OT. You watch all the behind the scenes docs on the production...sets, costumes, props, masks, even the Vader helmet and you come away asking how they could have gotten so much so wrong with so much effort and as many resources as you could hope for. Lucas is ultimately to blame, but the level of artistry just was not as apparent in the production of the PT as it was in the OT.

Getting back to the what-ifs that the notes from the Rinzler book raise...the image of the Jedi. We're given very little to go on in the OT regarding who and what it was that the Jedi actually were, which is probably one the greatest aspects of the OT. Like Boba Fett, the allure is really in what we DON'T know, which is what was completely destroyed in the PT. Growing up, I know that nobody I knew saw the Jedi as robe wearing monks. We thought they were warriors. We didn't see Obi-wan's garb as the formal wear of the Jedi at all. We just figured that was how poor people on Tatooine dressed...like Owen Lars. So, to see in the PT that Lucas had chosen a bathrobe as the best all-around wardrobe choice for the Jedi for any occasion or environment...deep sea diving, piloting a fighter, full-scale military combat or one-on-one saber combat, was disappointing and perplexing in the extreme.

The Jedi are Knights, of course, but that doesn't relegate them to a perpetual ceremonial wardrobe. Were a knight to serve in the military, they'd wear the same uniform as anyone else. The lightsaber on their belt would really be the only indicator that they were a Jedi. Maybe a cape worn over the uniform under proper circumstances. I also had the impression that being a Jedi wasn't necessarily a lifelong distinction ala Obi-wan's admission to Luke, "I was once a Jedi Knight, the same as your father". That created the impression that they were an elite group like SEALS or something where you served for a time or perhaps could choose to make it your career. But, he was clearly speaking in the past tense and never once describes himself as still being a Jedi.

The most Jedi-like character in the PT that bares any resemblance to the rough sketch of what a Jedi was that we were given in the OT was the one killed off in the first prequel, Qui Gon. Neeson did a great job portraying a thinking man's gentle wisdom, fallibility and the placid focus of a samurai during combat who has fully embraced his mortality and the temporal nature of his own existence. We got a small taste of what a Jedi could be only to have it snatched away and replaced with the Marvel superhero nonsense of the two remaining films.

Knowing what a fan Abrams is of the OT, one can only hope that the creative team on the new films is pouring over these old notes and sketches to inform the shape that things will take in the new trilogy. He may literally be the "new hope".