Redrawn copy of my Raiders map on Ebay...need advice

[DARTH SABER]

Just found this auction on Ebay -
Indiana Jones - 1:1 scale Chachapoyan Map replica prop - eBay (item 180553384869 end time Sep-02-10 19:50:19 PDT)

It looks like this was redrawn based on my Raiders map. The only real differecne I see is the big square face and the placement of the text next to the pyramid.
The description of the auction also gives credit to the artist who redrew the map...How about some credit for me?

Could I still be able to have this pulled from Ebay?


DS

 

[Moviefreak]

They look to have changed some stuff, and added some lines in the pyramid, so convincing Ebay that it is yours might be tough. They can claim they did most of it by hand.

 

[DocTony]

Have you contacted him, my first thought is he is honest, being as he is given credit to the guy who he "thinks" made it, he may not be aware you are the original artist

 

[DARTH SABER]

Well, I have a vero account with eBay.
I just send them an electronic notice a claimed infringement and they usually delete the auction, no questions asked.

 

[Moviefreak]

Can you post pictures to compare? I saved one off the free paper section a while ago, but I am not sure it is yours. I compared this one to the one I saved and there is nothing in common. So i am thinking I don't have yours to compare the seller's item to. Thanks

 

[DARTH SABER]

Can you post pictures to compare? I saved one off the free paper section a while ago, but I am not sure it is yours. I compared this one to the one I saved and there is nothing in common. So i am thinking I don't have yours to compare the seller's item to. Thanks

Here it is -http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v471/jedifyfe/Paper%20Props/raiders-map-W.jpg

 

[Jedifyfe]

I actually think this guy is a member here. Here is a thread in the paper prop section about him:

http://www.therpf.com/f40/seller-cavedweller72-ebay-89076/

Here is his pics from his NT2 auction:

Here is a yourprops.com member "Moki" that states this is his self made prop:

http://www.yourprops.com/Booth-Diar...ure-2--Book-of-Secrets--2007--prop-35755.html

And his Riley Polle book:

http://www.yourprops.com/Riley-s-bo...ure-2--Book-of-Secrets--2007--prop-34848.html

 

[Moviefreak]

So is the problem that he redrew your item? I looked over them both, and there is ALOT changed. He did not photocopy yours, it looks like they drew their own version.

View attachment 32771
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So the question lies there:
Is it wrong to take someone's idea and redraw it or recreat it yourself? I mean, isn't that what we do here on the RPF? We take pictures of an item, and screen caps, and recreate it by hand and we say it is okay. Sure we infringed on a copyright, but we say, because we built it by our own hand, that its is okay.

I apologize if I am crossing a line asking that, but I am confused on the extent of where we call something recasted. They obviously drew their own copy and version, with differences... so is that recasting? Or is it creating a replica?

I in no way hope this has sounded rude or offensive and I mean no disrespect to you Darth Saber.

 

[Moviefreak]

I actually think this guy is a member here.

Could be... he has some stuff that looks like the free paper section for sale.

Do you know who did the Polypotion page? He is selling that... perhaps he posted about it here somewhere.

 

[Serenity]

In my opinion, the best version of the Polyjuice Potion page out there is done by Juno. It's hard to tell if it's her version though because of the size of the photo, but perhaps she can check it out too...

Also of note: if he really did get the Riley Poole book spread from Ross (as noted in the yourprops page), and isn't just selling his only copy, then he's guilty there too...

 

[Moviefreak]

If you go to the MyProps page link and click on other items by the poster.... you see the poly juice page. They also have a link to their home page which links to Myspace.

 

[DARTH SABER]

So is the problem that he redrew your item?

Infringement is not based on how the item was created (by hand, photocopy, computer etc.). It is based on the finished product, and whether it looks too much like the original version.
As soon as I saw the image, I noticed that it was redrawn copy of my map my map (aside from the aspect ratio, the square faced statue)...That alone tells me that it's too close to my original map.
THe worst part, is that the guy who copied my map gets credit for the art...WTF?

I looked over them both, and there is ALOT changed. He did not photocopy yours, it looks like they drew their own version.

I have to disagree this the assertion that there are a lot of changes.
The illustration style of the native medallion is the same (stippling style) and it's in the same location as my map.
The the style of the mountain illustrations and the position are that same as my map.
The golden idol also the same position as my map.
The river runs in the same directions as my map.
The entrance to the cave is in the same postion.
The pyramid in the same position and the same 3/4 angle.
And finally, the text is the same as my map.

So the question lies there:
Is it wrong to take someone's idea and redraw it or recreat it yourself?

Yes, it's copyright infringement.
If I were to recreate a copy of a painting and sold it on Ebay, the artist would have every right to sue the pants off of me....Regardless of whether it was hand drawn or photocopied.

I apologize if I am crossing a line asking that, but I am confused on the extent of where we call something recasted. They obviously drew their own copy and version, with differences... so is that recasting? Or is it creating a replica?

Well, technically it's not a copy of a replica...Because no one knows what the original map looked like. You can't replicate something which has never been seen.
I created that map based on my idea of what the prop might have looked like, if it had been see.
As you can see I actually own the copyright on this map -
WebVoyage Record View 1

I in no way hope this has sounded rude or offensive and I mean no disrespect to you Darth Saber.

No, problem.

 

[Serenity]

Yup, just saw that. Definitely not juno's polyjuice page... She uses the same authentic fonts as the original and has a much better eye for detail.

 

[Moviefreak]

Also of note: if he really did get the Riley Poole book spread from Ross (as noted in the yourprops page), and isn't just selling his only copy, then he's guilty there too...

Looking through his previous sales, he has sold this set before. So if he was given one from the Ross guy, he is now making copies and selling them. That is a no no!!!!

 

[Moviefreak]

Infringement is not based on how the item was created (by hand, photocopy, computer etc.). It is based on the finished product, and whether it looks too much like the original version.
As soon as I saw the image, I noticed that it was redrawn copy of my map my map (aside from the aspect ratio, the square faced statue)...That alone tells me that it's too close to my original map.
THe worst part, is that the guy who copied my map gets credit for the art...WTF?



I have to disagree this the assertion that there are a lot of changes.
The illustration style of the native medallion is the same (stippling style) and it's in the same location as my map.
The the style of the mountain illustrations and the position are that same as my map.
The golden idol also the same position as my map.
The river runs in the same directions as my map.
The entrance to the cave is in the same postion.
The pyramid in the same position and the same 3/4 angle.
And finally, the text is the same as my map.



Yes, it's copyright infringement.
If I were to recreate a copy of a painting and sold it on Ebay, the artist would have every right to sue the pants off of me....Regardless of whether it was hand drawn or photocopied.




Well, technically it's not a copy of a replica...Because no one knows what the original map looked like. You can't replicate something which has never been seen.
I created that map based on my idea of what the prop might have looked like, if it had been see.
As you can see I actually own the copyright on this map -
WebVoyage Record View 1




No, problem.

All valid arguments and good points. Especially that you own the copyright on it...After hearing that, I would have to agree with you then. You were in the right to report it.

 

[Deathstalker II]

It seems like we have this conversation a lot around here. Fact is, if Lucasfilm/Paramount wanted to freak out on you guys - THEY could - and then maybe the both of you would be utterly screwed. It's a pretty grey market. People complain about being recast - but isn't the activity here basically intellectual property theft in the first place? A company buys the rights to a property, creates a product, markets the product - but three hundred dudes here are still trying to make Iron Man helmets (and sell them for three hundred dollars)...which some might see as copyright infringement.

Fine, you sculpted/painted/drew the thing yourself - but it is someone else's thing.

I mean - I feel you. I've had my art ripped off on a massive scale. When I was in school, I worked on my school paper. My advisor showed me an ad we were supposed to run, said it looked like ****, and asked me to redraw this company's stick figure logo (the business was a start up, and the guy sent over a bogus logo on a piece of steno pad). So I worked something up, we ran the ad...and six months later the logo I designed was on this guy's building, his swag, his jackets, his truck, his TV commercials, his legit print ads, his BILLBOARDS...I branded this guy's business FOR FREE.

It got funnier when he expanded out of state.

As for the copyright claim - that's an easy application, and it doesn't fall under much scrutiny. If the office figured out - or were notified by Paramount/Lucasfilm - that you've attempted to copyright something intentionally crafted to evoke their Indiana Jones property, your attempt at copyright is irrelevant.

I've always thought a neat thing to do if you were recast or stolen from would be to sell your replica on EBay and actually put in the sale text that you know THIS SPECIFIC SELLER has copied your work, and why settle for the poorly photocopied version when you can have the original attempt? Show people the differences, and tell them to choose. You have the superior product - they'll choose you. And if they don't, they wanted the cheaper one, and they suck.

 

[DARTH SABER]

It seems like we have this conversation a lot around here. Fact is, if Lucasfilm/Paramount wanted to freak out on you guys - THEY could -

Um...No they couldn't....Unless they can provide proof that they held the copyright to that image prior to the time that I got my copyright. WHich they can't.

As for the copyright claim - that's an easy application, and it doesn't fall under much scrutiny. If the office figured out - or were notified by Paramount/Lucasfilm - that you've attempted to copyright something intentionally crafted to evoke their Indiana Jones property, your attempt at copyright is irrelevant.

Sorry, but you couldn't be more utterly wrong.

-Nowhere on my map does it say "Indiana Jones (Which is LFL copyrighted).

-Nowhere on my map does it say "Raiders of the Lost Ark" (Which is LFL copyrighted)

-THe chachapoyan fertility god is an actual relic (not copyrighted by LFL)

-Evoking Indiana Jones has absolutely justification whatsoever.
There are dozens of films, books, artworks out there which have been evoked by Indiana Jones...THe reason LFL doesn't do anything is because there is no direct copyright infringement. LFL cannot sue someone for creating something that "evokes" Indiana Jones, unless that person uses something that is actually copyrighted by LFL.

-Unless Lucas can provide copyright proof that the artwork on my map was created by them (before I created my map) then they have no grounds to sue.
The only thing ever showed in the film was the blank part of the back of the map.

-Even if LFL notified the copyright office, they would have to provide proof that they actually owned the rights on that image, prior to my copyright claim....Which is impossible.

- I have never sold my map for profit online or anywhere else.

I mean - I feel you. I've had my art ripped off on a massive scale. When I was in school, I worked on my school paper. My advisor showed me an ad we were supposed to run, said it looked like ****, and asked me to redraw this company's stick figure logo (the business was a start up, and the guy sent over a bogus logo on a piece of steno pad). So I worked something up, we ran the ad...and six months later the logo I designed was on this guy's building, his swag, his jackets, his truck, his TV commercials, his legit print ads, his BILLBOARDS...I branded this guy's business FOR FREE.

You should have sued the guy.
It's been nearly 35 year ssince the copyright law has been amended to provide more protection for the original artist. The moment you create your original art, it instantly becomes your copyrighted and intellectual property.
Registering your art with the government copyright office is no longer required (Although having actual government documents comes in handy when legal problems arise.)

Trust me, the Ive had several experiences with copyright infringement, and won both of the infringement suits I have claimed.
The only real "grey" area is just how much someone can change an existing piece of artwork, before it is no longer considered their artwork.


DS

 

[propologist]

It seems like we have this conversation a lot around here. Fact is, if Lucasfilm/Paramount wanted to freak out on you guys - THEY could - and then maybe the both of you would be utterly screwed. It's a pretty grey market. People complain about being recast - but isn't the activity here basically intellectual property theft in the first place? A company buys the rights to a property, creates a product, markets the product - but three hundred dudes here are still trying to make Iron Man helmets (and sell them for three hundred dollars)...which some might see as copyright infringement.

Fine, you sculpted/painted/drew the thing yourself - but it is someone else's thing.

I mean - I feel you. I've had my art ripped off on a massive scale. When I was in school, I worked on my school paper. My advisor showed me an ad we were supposed to run, said it looked like ****, and asked me to redraw this company's stick figure logo (the business was a start up, and the guy sent over a bogus logo on a piece of steno pad). So I worked something up, we ran the ad...and six months later the logo I designed was on this guy's building, his swag, his jackets, his truck, his TV commercials, his legit print ads, his BILLBOARDS...I branded this guy's business FOR FREE.

It got funnier when he expanded out of state.

As for the copyright claim - that's an easy application, and it doesn't fall under much scrutiny. If the office figured out - or were notified by Paramount/Lucasfilm - that you've attempted to copyright something intentionally crafted to evoke their Indiana Jones property, your attempt at copyright is irrelevant.

I've always thought a neat thing to do if you were recast or stolen from would be to sell your replica on EBay and actually put in the sale text that you know THIS SPECIFIC SELLER has copied your work, and why settle for the poorly photocopied version when you can have the original attempt? Show people the differences, and tell them to choose. You have the superior product - they'll choose you. And if they don't, they wanted the cheaper one, and they suck.

great points, I think we all forget that we are technically ripping off someone else's work everyday and everything we produce . It's just a HUGE elephant in the room we don't like to talk about.

 

[KramStaar]

I feel for you mate because there is nothing worse than finding out that someone has profited off your hard work but that said, I'm afraid that DeathstalkerII is quite correct when he refers to the fact that LFL and/or Paramount could take you on - just ask Magnoli.

The argument of creative copyright can only really apply when the work is totally original (although the grey areas referred to apply if say you've used Indiana Jones in a painting of your own layout, concept and making - but NOT a copy of a Drew piece etc. etc.).

The fact that the studios tolerate members here (and elsewhere) making copies of their intellectual property is really a luxury because they by rights can issue a C&D to EVERYONE involved, be it Grail Diaries, Lightsabers or Pulse Weapons.

There is no straight answer here and I in no way am wanting to trivialise the feeling you are experiencing of violation through someone profiteering out of your efforts. Its a nasty thing to find, but if you want to retain your copyright then you need to transfer your considerable skills to your own unique pieces of art..

Bood luck mate and I hope you find closure here

Regards and wishes

MARK

 

[DARTH SABER]

I feel for you mate because there is nothing worse than finding out that someone has profited off your hard work but that said, I'm afraid that DeathstalkerII is quite correct when he refers to the fact that LFL and/or Paramount could take you on - just ask Magnoli.

Yes, but did Indy Magnoli get issued a C&D based on a piece of art that never appears in the film, or in/on any LFL product?