Recast Alert

[Venture]

Earlier this year a possible recast alert was posted about Azman S. aka Jawaman and TIE pilot armor.

Background infirmation:
I sold Azam his armor in 2003, he promised it would not be used for recasting...

Earlier this year he started offering armor and the pictures he posted were harvested and inpected by other members of this board. When confronted pictures of clay molds were posted on Imageevent.com but we were not allowed to download them to look at them better against our armor... Based on what people had to look at they were almost possitive it was a recast. In time it was forgoten by most here and within the 501st Legion.

Last Friday I went to a 501st event here in the GGG and I found myself looking at armor that looked like ours but I had no memory of making for this person only to find out he got it from "Jawaman" (Azman S.).

Having seen the armor 1st hand I can say that the armor he is offering is in deed a recast of the Hi Impact armor I sold to him.

[Edited - Removed Full Name for Privacy Reasons - RPF Staff]

 

[maniacman7]

theres ALOT of armor recasting going on alot lately. I KNOW
I sold a set of armor to someone in CA and LOE and behold he now sells clone armor. what a co- winky dink.


Lance
TC2640

 

[Venture]

For anyone that questions why Hi Impact doesn't sell, this is why........................................

 

[Skaught]

What details indicate the armor was recast?

Scott

 

[division 6]

The list of details is long and incomplete since smaller resin pieces where copied as well but this should give you an idea.

I had brought this up some time ago but it was swept under the carpet buy members of the 501st as well as members here who apparently have copies as well or could care less if it's recast.

These same hypocritical members still put on face of hating recasters while harboring them with in the community.

D6

 

[Skaught]

I can't really see in these pics the "tells" that are being described (not saying they aren't there).

Were the originals recast from TK armor?

Scott

 

[Venture]

Originally posted by Skaught@Nov 28 2005, 09:39 PM
I can't really see in these pics the "tells" that are being described (not saying they aren't there). 

Were the originals recast from TK armor? 

Scott

[snapback]1124023[/snapback]​

No... The molds were all sculpted by HI members.

 

[Skaught]

What is the the inset detail on the back box...that interior square bit...I can't see that on the "recast" armor. Again, not saying it isn't there. It's just not appearing in the photo.

Scott

 

[rigormortis]

I will say I'm VERY against recasting other people's work and had assumed Az was vindicated long ago with an investigation by the Legion Council and Mountain Garrison CO (of which Azman is a member) when it was first brought up almost a year ago.

I will re-check with the CO and see what happenned to the investigation. Personally, I see similarities in style (the same as GT vs TE) but not in detail (but then again I'm not physically holding the armor against each other), but again, that's not up to me to decide.

I will check on your behalf and post what's being done. I know the deal killer would be to get a set from you and a set from him and physically compare them vs just looking at a pic.

Kev
Mountain Garrison PRO
Spec Ops Det Lead

 

[pnerves]

Firstly, I have Azman's armor and he's a friend, so I wil be defending him, but I think I have valid points. That said, there are similarities, but I would expect those. There are also differences. My armor does not have the 'drop in panel' line that is alluded to on the back piece. My armor does not have the small flaws on the front as the original does- the small dent on the lower right side, or the round protrusion on the top center. Also the bottom of the chest box 'block' on the original armor is nearly parallel with the bottom of the armor. On Azman's armor, the corners are closer to the edge. It also seems that the flared shoulders are more pronounced on Azman's armor. I can't see the pec angle on the original picture. If I'm seeing things that are not there, I aopologize.

 

[Venture]

Originally posted by Skaught@Nov 28 2005, 10:18 PM
What is the the inset detail on the back box...that interior square bit...I can't see that on the "recast" armor.  Again, not saying it isn't there.  It's just not appearing in the photo.

Scott

[snapback]1124063[/snapback]​

There isn't an inset, there is a "bump" in the upper center of the flat area from the rivet that goes through it and yes it is missing on the recast. The "bump" is used to center the chest box on the chest plate.

The last time this was brought up there was never a "final word" on the issue, it simple went away... Now having seen the armor 1st hand it has been brought back into the light. This time we need pictures that can be viewed better than on Imageevent, the right click had been disabled making it more difficult to view the pictures the way they needed to be.

 

[exoray]

Originally posted by Venture@Nov 28 2005, 06:23 PM
Imageevent, the right click had been disabled making it more difficult to view the pictures the way they needed to be.

[snapback]1124101[/snapback]​

Go into your browser settings and disable java script when you visit the page then the right click should work... Or simply go to the top of your browser and click 'File' then along the lines of 'save page as' or 'save page with images as' no right clicking involved...

 

[Tatooine_Todd]

Originally posted by Venture+Nov 28 2005, 11:23 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Venture @ Nov 28 2005, 11:23 PM)</div>

<!--QuoteBegin-Skaught

@Nov 28 2005, 10:18 PM
What is the the inset detail on the back box...that interior square bit...I can't see that on the "recast" armor.  Again, not saying it isn't there.  It's just not appearing in the photo.

Scott

[snapback]1124063[/snapback]​

There isn't an inset, there is a "bump" in the upper center of the flat area from the rivet that goes through it and yes it is missing on the recast. The "bump" is used to center the chest box on the chest plate.

The last time this was brought up there was never a "final word" on the issue, it simple went away... Now having seen the armor 1st hand it has been brought back into the light. This time we need pictures that can be viewed better than on Imageevent, the right click had been disabled making it more difficult to view the pictures the way they needed to be.

[snapback]1124101[/snapback]​

[/b]

I think he is refering to the "box within a box" detail on yours, that I don't see in the suspected piece either.

 

[Venture]

On the back piece in the picture it is very hard to tell if there is a line from the inset on the mold that is also used for our TK armor, the armor I saw on Friday had it clear as day, I know it wasn't the armor I made for Azman due to he got styrene and the stuff I saw looked like ABS.

 

[Jedirick]

Originally posted by division 6@Nov 28 2005, 04:02 PM

I had brought this up some time ago but it was swept under the carpet buy members of the 501st as well as members here who apparently have copies as well or could care less if it's recast.

Swept under the carpet or more a case of differing opinions as to whether it actually was a recast? Some guys are reluctant to label someone as a recaster unless they feel the evidence is overwhelmingly condemning. Apparently there is enough reasonable difference in opinion that the issue has never been fully resolved or at least not publically.

These same hypocritical members still put on face of hating recasters while harboring them with in the community.

D6

That's pretty inflamatory. If, as I suggested, recasting has yet to be fully confirmed then labeling those with a dissenting opinion as hypocritical certainly does nothing to aid in resolution.

From examining the photos above, my conclusion is much like Skaught's I see little similarity, maybe it's there but the tells just do not seem evident. Seems the differences in the armor are much easier to spot.

What rigormortis just said, "I know the deal killer would be to get a set from you and a set from him and physically compare them vs just looking at a pic.", is the way to go.

 

[SithLord]

I'm not a TIE armor expert but are the asymmetries in the original armor unique to this particular sculpt? The similarities in asymmetries are pretty clear to me...is there other fan armor that has these? One thing is that failing any other source it's reasonable to suspect recasting. I agree the best way is to compare them side-by-side. Get measurements of the shoulder strips...that could provide an additional clue...

:cheers,

T

 

[rigormortis]

Here's how I'd prove a recast...
http://67.15.157.14/%7Ec501stsp/gallery/ca...99cd45b52697981

Side by side pics comparing detail of one against another. The bad one is a "Glover special" (a friend bought from him with a set of his armor and paid more than I paid for the real one) compared to a crisp original made by a fellow RPF member. No need to point out details here - the pics speak for themselves.

There's no substitute for side by side pics, other than showing bucks and buildup.

But like I said, my CO is currently talking with your CO to sort this out.

 

[Skaught]

I've looked into it and I've been presented with photos of the original sculpt, from the clay on through the molding and casting process. I'm told these were presented in the past, but despite them charges are still being leveled. I'm not sure what more proof is needed than the original clay sculpt.

For the record, I do not know either party in this matter.

Scott

 

[exoray]

Originally posted by Skaught@Nov 28 2005, 09:31 PM
I've looked into it and I've been presented with photos of the original sculpt, from the clay

[snapback]1124221[/snapback]​

Out of curiosity was it a complete sculpt or progress pictures of the sculpt? Reason being it's child play to pull a clay positive out of existing armor and tweak it to look like a sculp...

 

[Hand-Schaub]

Originally posted by exoray@Nov 29 2005, 04:50 AM

Out of curiosity was it a complete sculpt or progress pictures of the sculpt?  Reason being it's child play to pull a clay positive out of existing armor and tweak it to look like a sculp...

[snapback]1124317[/snapback]​

Being a ceramic artist/sculptor - I wouldn't say it is that easy to pull a clean clay piece out of vacuformed piece. Even when done well it would take a good deal of clean up to ge it to be a clean working master. Even then, a mold (either vaced or otherwise) would be made and then additional work would need to be done. The changes would be significant enough.
*edit - I re-read the above post and can see how you may have meant that differently - i.e. a progres shot could be 'staged'... still - would it be worth that much trouble?

either way, I'll have to agree with the crowd that the pictures presented show similarities but same condition photos would be needed to make a final judgment.