Recast Alert

Discussion in 'Replica Props' started by Venture, Nov 27, 2005.

  1. Venture

    Venture New Member

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    Earlier this year a possible recast alert was posted about Azman S. aka Jawaman and TIE pilot armor.

    Background infirmation:
    I sold Azam his armor in 2003, he promised it would not be used for recasting...

    Earlier this year he started offering armor and the pictures he posted were harvested and inpected by other members of this board. When confronted pictures of clay molds were posted on Imageevent.com but we were not allowed to download them to look at them better against our armor... Based on what people had to look at they were almost possitive it was a recast. In time it was forgoten by most here and within the 501st Legion.

    Last Friday I went to a 501st event here in the GGG and I found myself looking at armor that looked like ours but I had no memory of making for this person only to find out he got it from "Jawaman" (Azman S.).

    Having seen the armor 1st hand I can say that the armor he is offering is in deed a recast of the Hi Impact armor I sold to him.

    [Edited - Removed Full Name for Privacy Reasons - RPF Staff]
     
  2. maniacman7

    maniacman7 Well-Known Member

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    theres ALOT of armor recasting going on alot lately. I KNOW :(:(:(
    I sold a set of armor to someone in CA and LOE and behold he now sells clone armor. what a co- winky *.


    Lance
    TC2640
     
  3. Venture

    Venture New Member

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    For anyone that questions why Hi Impact doesn't sell, this is why........................................
     
  4. Skaught

    Skaught Sr Member

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    What details indicate the armor was recast?

    Scott
     
  5. division 6

    division 6 Master Member

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    The list of details is long and incomplete since smaller resin pieces where copied as well but this should give you an idea.
    [​IMG]
    I had brought this up some time ago but it was swept under the carpet buy members of the 501st as well as members here who apparently have copies as well or could care less if it's recast.

    These same hypocritical members still put on face of hating recasters while harboring them with in the community.

    D6
     
  6. Skaught

    Skaught Sr Member

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    I can't really see in these pics the "tells" that are being described (not saying they aren't there).

    Were the originals recast from TK armor?

    Scott
     
  7. Venture

    Venture New Member

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    No... The molds were all sculpted by HI members.
     
  8. Skaught

    Skaught Sr Member

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    What is the the inset detail on the back box...that interior square bit...I can't see that on the "recast" armor. Again, not saying it isn't there. It's just not appearing in the photo.

    Scott
     
  9. rigormortis

    rigormortis Well-Known Member

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    I will say I'm VERY against recasting other people's work and had assumed Az was vindicated long ago with an investigation by the Legion Council and Mountain Garrison CO (of which Azman is a member) when it was first brought up almost a year ago.

    I will re-check with the CO and see what happenned to the investigation. Personally, I see similarities in style (the same as GT vs TE) but not in detail (but then again I'm not physically holding the armor against each other), but again, that's not up to me to decide.

    I will check on your behalf and post what's being done. I know the deal killer would be to get a set from you and a set from him and physically compare them vs just looking at a pic.

    Kev
    Mountain Garrison PRO
    Spec Ops Det Lead
     
  10. pnerves

    pnerves New Member

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    Firstly, I have Azman's armor and he's a friend, so I wil be defending him, but I think I have valid points. That said, there are similarities, but I would expect those. There are also differences. My armor does not have the 'drop in panel' line that is alluded to on the back piece. My armor does not have the small flaws on the front as the original does- the small dent on the lower right side, or the round protrusion on the top center. Also the bottom of the chest box 'block' on the original armor is nearly parallel with the bottom of the armor. On Azman's armor, the corners are closer to the edge. It also seems that the flared shoulders are more pronounced on Azman's armor. I can't see the pec angle on the original picture. If I'm seeing things that are not there, I aopologize.
     
  11. Venture

    Venture New Member

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    There isn't an inset, there is a "bump" in the upper center of the flat area from the rivet that goes through it and yes it is missing on the recast. The "bump" is used to center the chest box on the chest plate.

    The last time this was brought up there was never a "final word" on the issue, it simple went away... Now having seen the armor 1st hand it has been brought back into the light. This time we need pictures that can be viewed better than on Imageevent, the right click had been disabled making it more difficult to view the pictures the way they needed to be.
     
  12. exoray

    exoray Master Member

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    Go into your browser settings and disable java script when you visit the page then the right click should work... Or simply go to the top of your browser and click 'File' then along the lines of 'save page as' or 'save page with images as' no right clicking involved...
     
  13. Tatooine_Todd

    Tatooine_Todd Sr Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    I think he is refering to the "box within a box" detail on yours, that I don't see in the suspected piece either.
     
  14. Venture

    Venture New Member

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    On the back piece in the picture it is very hard to tell if there is a line from the inset on the mold that is also used for our TK armor, the armor I saw on Friday had it clear as day, I know it wasn't the armor I made for Azman due to he got styrene and the stuff I saw looked like ABS.
     
  15. Jedirick

    Jedirick Sr Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Swept under the carpet or more a case of differing opinions as to whether it actually was a recast? Some guys are reluctant to label someone as a recaster unless they feel the evidence is overwhelmingly condemning. Apparently there is enough reasonable difference in opinion that the issue has never been fully resolved or at least not publically.

    That's pretty inflamatory. If, as I suggested, recasting has yet to be fully confirmed then labeling those with a dissenting opinion as hypocritical certainly does nothing to aid in resolution.

    From examining the photos above, my conclusion is much like Skaught's I see little similarity, maybe it's there but the tells just do not seem evident. Seems the differences in the armor are much easier to spot.

    What rigormortis just said, "I know the deal killer would be to get a set from you and a set from him and physically compare them vs just looking at a pic.", is the way to go.
     
  16. SithLord

    SithLord Sr Member

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    I'm not a TIE armor expert but are the asymmetries in the original armor unique to this particular sculpt? The similarities in asymmetries are pretty clear to me...is there other fan armor that has these? One thing is that failing any other source it's reasonable to suspect recasting. I agree the best way is to compare them side-by-side. Get measurements of the shoulder strips...that could provide an additional clue...

    :cheers,

    T
     
  17. rigormortis

    rigormortis Well-Known Member

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    Here's how I'd prove a recast...
    http://67.15.157.14/%7Ec501stsp/gallery/ca...99cd45b52697981

    Side by side pics comparing detail of one against another. The bad one is a "Glover special" (a friend bought from him with a set of his armor and paid more than I paid for the real one) compared to a crisp original made by a fellow RPF member. No need to point out details here - the pics speak for themselves.

    There's no substitute for side by side pics, other than showing bucks and buildup.

    But like I said, my CO is currently talking with your CO to sort this out.
     
  18. Skaught

    Skaught Sr Member

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    I've looked into it and I've been presented with photos of the original sculpt, from the clay on through the molding and casting process. I'm told these were presented in the past, but despite them charges are still being leveled. I'm not sure what more proof is needed than the original clay sculpt.

    For the record, I do not know either party in this matter.

    Scott
     
  19. exoray

    exoray Master Member

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    Out of curiosity was it a complete sculpt or progress pictures of the sculpt? Reason being it's child play to pull a clay positive out of existing armor and tweak it to look like a sculp...
     
  20. Hand-Schaub

    Hand-Schaub Well-Known Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Being a ceramic artist/sculptor - I wouldn't say it is that easy to pull a clean clay piece out of vacuformed piece. Even when done well it would take a good deal of clean up to ge it to be a clean working master. Even then, a mold (either vaced or otherwise) would be made and then additional work would need to be done. The changes would be significant enough.
    *edit - I re-read the above post and can see how you may have meant that differently - i.e. a progres shot could be 'staged'... still - would it be worth that much trouble?

    either way, I'll have to agree with the crowd that the pictures presented show similarities but same condition photos would be needed to make a final judgment.
     
  21. Skaught

    Skaught Sr Member

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    The pics of the front armor were progress pics, from a lumpy mass on up.

    How would someone make a positive pull out of clay? I've worked with clay and I can't imagine how to accomplish that, so calling it childsplay may be a bit of an exaggeration.

    Scott
     
  22. exoray

    exoray Master Member

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    Same way you would make the positive molds for a recast, except instead of filling the inside of the armor with plaster, you would fill it with melted clay...
     
  23. rocketeer25

    rocketeer25 Sr Member

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    Guys,

    The staff just recieved this email. For what it's worth, I had already edited out the full names in the first post. I've also edited out the full name in the email below.

     
  24. Skaught

    Skaught Sr Member

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    Melting clay is childs play? I hope my child never tries it. :)

    Scott
     
  25. obi1kenny

    obi1kenny Well-Known Member

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    IÂ’m not taking sides here and I havenÂ’t looked at the evidence. But just from doing a little reading here, I really have to ask myself this one question first:

    If this guy is making his own armor from his own sculpts then why did he buy a set of Hi Impact armor to begin with?
     
  26. pnerves

    pnerves New Member

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    Maybe he bought it simply to have it, and then realized that he could do a better scult himself? Who hasn't gotten a piece and said 'I can do better work than that?'
     
  27. WebChief

    WebChief Sr Member

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    I have no stake in this conversation but feel its totally wrong to name someone as a recaster without absolute proof of it. Its basically slander. The guy's name couild be turned to mud for what might turn out to be nothing.

    Seems that in order to cry recasting positive undenyable proof should be presented first. You haven't done that. In the two pics that you provided I can see similarities and differences.

    Seems like in the hopes of stopping recasters people are almost on a witch hunt.... many innocent people could be hurt by potentially false accusations.

    Also seems to me that if someone suspects a recaster they should present clear evidence to the RPF staff before calling out someone for the world to see.

    What I do know is that Azman makes some AMAZING resin R2 parts.... Since he's such a great prop builder why would he have the need to recast?

    Just my two cents. Bash away.
     
  28. pnerves

    pnerves New Member

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    Another issue that has been gnawing at my mind is if was brought up a year ago, why was it not pursued? If the 501st said it was not recast, was that not the end of it? Why bring it up like this again?
     
  29. iceman

    iceman Well-Known Member

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    Sorry I've been quiet during this, lots going on right now.
    This issue has not been a "cut & dried" case, there has been a strong argument from both sides.
    I have been dealing with this since the beginning, and I know Division 6 and Venture and the rest of the Hi-impact guys are VERY bitter about this, but it has NOT been swept under by the 501st, just bogged down in the bureaucracy and overshadowed by other issues.

    If it were solely up to the RPF community, what would be needed in order to make a final determination ?
    Personally, I agree that a side-by-side comparison seems to be the only way to resolve this.
     
  30. rigormortis

    rigormortis Well-Known Member

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    To my knowledge it was presented to the Legion Council Tribunal by both CO's and it was determined that with the evidence provided by both sides, it was not a recast, but apparently MC disagrees with the decision.

    I have offered to present the same evidence to the RPF staff (as submitted by my CO), but have not gotten a response.

    Honestly, if showing pics of the buildup and bucks to one group was not enough, what's the point of retrying this on each and every board MC belongs to? Now that's a witch hunt.

    Enoughs enough, IMHO. If MC wishes to smear Az's name all over creation, so be it. But at least let sanity prevail here, as I have requested the RPF staff to do.

    God forbid if I ever offer props to the community again, I'll have to capture the process in time-lapse photography to PROVE I didn't rip anyone off. Hence the reason I've dropped several potential projects I've thought of doing. It's just not worth it anymore.

    It's bad enough that you try to research and develop something, take the time to do it right, then get busted left and right for not being accurate, being too accurate, or your stuff looks like mine. Yeah, all our stuff looks the same - we're all going for accuracy to what was on screen.

    Personally, I'm done adding my 2 cents either way. If the RPF staff wishes to discuss it further, I'm always available by PM.
     
  31. Skaught

    Skaught Sr Member

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    I bought some Fett gauntlets from someone, but I think I can do better, so I'm going to try. I don't think the seller of the original gauntlets should have any grounds to accuse me of recasting as a result.

    I also bought an X-Wing pressure vest from a well known prop maker. I decided I could do better and I did. I made several and sold them. Of course, I didn't recast the vest. :p

    Scott
     
  32. iceman

    iceman Well-Known Member

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    There were actually 3 Co's involved, since Division 6 belongs to a different Garrison than Venture. I personally did not determine that it was not a recast, just that there was not enough compelling evidence either way. I don't recall that any official decision was ever reached.
    The only reason it was brought to the 501st, is that the original pictures used for the sale of the armor was hosted on the MG garrison's web site.
    After speaking with Venture ( MC ) this morning, I think that this issue is best decided here, not the 501st. I believe the RPF community has much better judgment and experience than the 501st in this case.
     
  33. Jedirick

    Jedirick Sr Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    I had not mentioned this before but, unless I met them as part of the 501 group at Dragoncon, I do not know any of these people from Adam.

    Sadly it appears this recast issue appears to have been flawed from first post in the thread.

    I was hoping a case of recasting could be determined with just a side by side comparison but now evidentially it appears some claims as to source have been let's say, embellished. Plus from what I can determine it now appears the origin of the armor in question has not been established. Has AZ indicated the pictured armor is his work?

    Until the origin of the armor in question has been determined, even a side by side comparison is rather fruitless. Hypothetically at this juncture we could be talking about 3 sets of armor MC's, Az's and the set in question. Furthermore IMO if the plaintiff is emotionally moved to the point of making unsubstantiated claims as to origin, what else may be clouded in presentation by jumping to conclusion?

    Are these some of the reasons a satisfactory decision has not yet been made?
     
  34. rocketeer25

    rocketeer25 Sr Member

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    Is the accused even a RPF member?

    Did the 501st make a ruling on this or not? We seem to be getting two different stories here...

    If anyone has additional proof, one way or the other, please send it to one of the staff.

    Thanks,
    Lonnie
     
  35. Jedirick

    Jedirick Sr Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Is AZ a member of the RPF? if he is, then by all means since both parties are members we should take part in a final determination as someone's RPF membership hangs in the balance. In my book, deliberate accusation by recasting facts is as serious an issue as recasting itself. No one here certainly wants to make a recaster decision based on false claims. The truth needs to be told. Right now we need to know how MR determined source of armor in question if the party owning it claims to have not revealed that information. Based on that revelation we can consider moving forward.

    IMO if AZ is not a member here then we have less right to pass judgement than the 501. Discuss, opinionate and debate, sure, but be considered responsible for executing judgement, no. I just can't see where the RPF should serve as the high court in making a final judgement on recasting issues outside of our membership. After all, all we can do is ban the recaster as a member. I strongly support keeping "known recasters" from ever having a RPF membership but the RPF can't serve as the recast police of the entire internet.

    As for the RPF having better experience and judgement than the RPF, I dunno. Yeah , we have a lot of guys here familiar with technique as well as armor, however most RPF armor makers are either members of the 501 or involved in meeting 501 members costuming needs. It could be said that when it comes to costuming that the 501 is pretty much the definitive source of supply and demand. Seems almost an in house issue.
     
  36. hyperdyne

    hyperdyne Sr Member

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    Az is a member here. I agree screaming "recast" before having concrete evidence stirs up quite a controversy. At what point do we stop with all the "crying wolf". I was not privy to the 501st decisions, but apparently they saw the evidence presented and made a judgment.

    BTW I have seen the armor in person and can vouch that it was made from scratch. Heck the clay molds should speak volumes. What is left to argue?
     
  37. WebChief

    WebChief Sr Member

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    Perhaps those putting forth false claims should be the ones banned from the RPF. Seems to me that some sort of process should be in place to discourage trashing someone without the evidence to back it up.
     
  38. iceman

    iceman Well-Known Member

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    1. No , a definitive decision was not made within the 501st.
    2. Yes, AZ was a member of the RPF , using the name "JAWAMAN" ( I do not see it currently listed though)
     
  39. micdavis

    micdavis Master Member

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    Sure blame all the members of the RPF for someone that MAY have done something.

    Starting to look like a rush to judgement to me.
     
  40. Cenobyte

    Cenobyte Sr Member

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    Thena LOT of teh RPF will be banned.

    Take a peek at most of the locked threads. People screaming "Recaster". Look it up before you pose that threat. A LOT of people will get booted.
     
  41. Cenobyte

    Cenobyte Sr Member

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    That username rings a bell for some reason..
     
  42. darienvader

    darienvader Well-Known Member

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    One should indeed get all the facts before presenting a "recaster" thread . . . believe me, I know. Anyway, Azman's not even the maker of the armor in question. He does offer it for sale along with his very fine chestbox, but he doesn't produce said armor. Somebody else does, but that source to my knowledge has not been made known.
     
  43. exoray

    exoray Master Member

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    So this is kinda like the SDS helmet stand, if you don't actually do the deed of recasting (if it is indeed recast) yourself or at least point the finger towards an anonymous person, then it's AOK for you to sell it? :confused

    I guess we will have to wait for them side by side pictures to see more details. because honestly from the pictures in this thread they are similar but that is about all I can conclude...

    And please do correct me if I'm wrong, but if what you say is indeed fact and Azman is not making the armor in question then in reality who needs to see his clay sculpts and his build ups, because it now appears that it's a different armor source and he is just the reseller...
     
  44. WebChief

    WebChief Sr Member

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    There's got to be something in place to stop people from lashing out without definitive proof. At the very least the admins and mods should be asked first before posting out in the public.

    Hey... I'm sorry but people need to have facts before they go dragging people's names through the mud. Its like people are guilty until proven innocent around here. Not exactly fair if you ask me.
     
  45. Skaught

    Skaught Sr Member

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    No one is saying that. They are saying that the person being accused of recasting has nothing to do with the armor, and that the person that DOES have something to do with the armor made it himself from scratch.

    Scott
     
  46. Jedirick

    Jedirick Sr Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Oh for Pete's Sake. Thank you Luuke. Somebody tell me is there ANYTHING ACCURATE ENOUGH in the opening statement of this thread to merit a call for judgement on recasting?

    Seems the only effort made to be factual was in naming the individual targeted for this exercise in libel.

    If original claims of recasting had any merit, false and misleading admissions have certainly clouded the issue. Anger at a suspected injustice does not allow justification for misrepresentation. Seems the complaintant has compromised his own integrity. This thread should be locked and archived as an example of how NOT to present accusations of recasting.
     
  47. Cenobyte

    Cenobyte Sr Member

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    I was not trying to me mean to your postal at all bro.

    I wholeheartedly agree with what you said.

    Just I see if someone is not happy, a LOT chime in and say "well X told Y that Z was a recaster" and I know because W is a friend of mine and I trust him.
     
  48. RICHIES ARMOR

    RICHIES ARMOR Sr Member

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    Ive had several items recast..its inevitable in the prop community especially with high volume or popular items. The method that I prefer is simplly refer the issue directly to Jedirick or the other mods and let them then step in. Its worked really well over the last couple of years. Seems a nod from them towards the alledged recaster speaks volumes.
    A quiet investigation...as many of the RPF members do...tends to allow for a better judgement when the issue is presented. Usually most of the issues can then be settled behind closed doors and stops the inevitable flame wars etc.

    2 cents.

    Richie
     
  49. pnerves

    pnerves New Member

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    My question is- when this stuff is all settled, will an apology to the falsely accused be enough to vindicate them, or are their reputations tainted for good?
     
  50. Jedirick

    Jedirick Sr Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    AZ's RPF name is Mr. Bojangles.

    I have just received some of the same pictures. This sculpt is obviously a normal pinch by pinch clay buildup sculpt techique used by most anyone familiar with clay sculpting. Obviously not one fabricated from a melted clay pull. Infact, the finishing of the final sculpt is painstakingly apparent - Chewie 15 style. IMO Someone would have to make enormous effort to manufacture these sculpts and present as fabricated evidence. Such talent and effort alone would negate any reason for recasting.

    From general appearance and patina of the clay used for the sculpt, I can readily assure you it is certainly not a parafin based meltable clay such as that sold by Monster Makers. Furthermore I myself have made the grievious error of pouring meltable clay into some hastily manufactured styrene mold retention boxes only to watch the heat retaining clay distort the mold boxes.

    As yet I do not have permission to openly post these pics and also want the RPF moderators to have a chance to review them.
     

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