Re-inventing Lukes ANH Lightsaber- And Vaders too??!?!

Discussion in 'Star Wars Costumes and Props' started by DARTH SABER, Oct 4, 2002.

  1. DARTH SABER

    DARTH SABER Master Member

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    I was wondering where the placement of the D-ring on Lukes ANH "post production pic" saber is compared to Lukes ANH screen used HERO. I thought they were the same but now after looking at some photos I think they might be different. Actually Im not talking about clock positions here, Im talking about what area ON the bottom of the hilt the straight part of the D-ring rests on. I know the screen used HERO had the straight part resting on the edge of the flash. But I looked at some pics of the "Post production" saber and the D-ring looks like it is positioned in the very center of the flash.

    Here are the clues that made me wonder about this...

    1.) On page 8 of the SW Visual Dictionary you can see that the D-ring on Lukes belt hook is being pulled back at an angle towards the hook, what this tells me is that Lukes tunic or waist area is pushing the body of the saber forward while the D-ring is being pulled back because of the canter placement tension . This leads me to believe that the D-rings placement is in the center of the flashgun.
    If it were on the edge the D-ring would be going straight up and there would be no tension pull because there wouldnt be any resistance from Luke waiste or tunic.

    2) on the same picture, if you look very closely you can see the flat metal which wraps around the D-ring and is rivoted to the saber runs back towards Lukes belt hook . If the D-ring were the same as Lukes "Screen used" hero wouldnt the flat metal run in the direction towards the control box?

    3) Most of us know that the D-ring on Lukes saber attaches to the hook on the OPPOSITE side of the control box, no matter if its the "Screen used" hero or the "Post production pic" Luke saber.....well heres a profile pic of Lukes "post production pic" saber from the Chronicles book...What do you see?

    And here is a top view of the same saber ...

    [attachmentid=1947]

    The D-ring base is in the CENTER of the flashgun...

    If this IS the placement of the D-rings it would mean that the flat metal which wraps around the D-ring and is riveted to the flashgun must've been cut down to size or else it would have ended up hanging off the edge of the saber...
    Any comments??
     
  2. Treadwell

    Treadwell Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    It took me a while to even fathom how you came to that conclusion on the B&W pic, but finally could see what you were seeing. Or what you think you're seeing. [​IMG]

    Here's what I see:
    [​IMG]

    Disregarding grip placement, because despite forshortening playing tricks with the spacing I think they are not evenly placed, I don't think the clamp is at the angle you depict. It looks straight up to me.

    The angle of the dring itself (putting aside the flat piece of metal wrapped around it) in no way looks like it's hanging straight down in that B&W pic. It looks like it's at the angle I depicted above.

    I also don't think the pic indicates the inverted mounting arrangement you propose. Granted, the pic doesn't prove it's they way I drew it either, but I did that to demonstrate that it could be either way.

    Therefore, I'll go so far as to say your inverted mount is a possibility neither proven nor disproven and is worth further investigation.

    But oriented along the same axis as the clamp? Nope! [​IMG]
     
  3. DARTH SABER

    DARTH SABER Master Member

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    Well the direction in which the flat metal doesnt concern me at this point , what Im trying to figutre out is if the D-ring is placed in the center or the edge of the flashgun bottom.......Also, the pics above dont show the flat metal running toward the direction of lukes belt hook....But the pic in the VD (with him standing and wearing his saber) you can just barely make out the flat metal running toward his belt hook...
     
  4. lonepigeon

    lonepigeon Sr Member

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    I don't think there's enough to prove the two different sabers...yet.
    How do we "know" the production saber has the D-ring closer to the edge? Truth is we know next to nothing about what the D-ring assembly looked like in ANH. I think we've put too much faith in Icons (who probably just machined a chrome copy of a picture frame D-ring assembly they happened to find).

    We do know that the Luke ANH could quite easily come apart. There was no little locking screw on the clamp like the Graflex comes with. So the clamp could have been flopped.

    Here's some support for your theory of two sabers (I wouldn't call them Pre and Post production though- labels don't fit). The Luke pic in the VD is PRE-production (post-production were shot after his car accident). The saber matches the one seen in Chronicles which is POST-production. Film stills show the clamp on the opposite side. I suspect if you look hard enough both versions could be found on screen.
     
  5. gavidoc

    gavidoc Well-Known Member

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    When I look at the 2 pictures you have posted, I see the following.

    If the clamp is at the 3 o'clock position with the button being at 12, then the d-ring is positioned at the 7 o'clock position and is folded back over whatever is holding it to the base of the flashgun with the top of the "D" portion being in the middle.

    [​IMG]

    If the d-ring was attached in the middle, IMO, the belt loop that hte sabre attaches to would be at a more drastic angle away from Mark's body since the clip would have to clear the outer radius of the grips, and the graflex.

    Plus, during the movie, if the d-ring is atached in the middle and attached to Hamil's belt, it wouldn't flop around as much as it does due to the added tension between the clip and the sabre due to the stress the clip is experiencing from holding the sabre on with the attachement point being in the center of the flashgun and not on the end.

    If the d-ring is attached along the edge, IMO, it fits with the amount of bouncing around the graflex experiences during the movie.
     
  6. JoMamma_Smurf

    JoMamma_Smurf Master Member

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    If the D-ring was in the center of the saber ever, it would be a true pain to wear!
     
  7. DARTH SABER

    DARTH SABER Master Member

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    Yes I admit that the flopping in the film used saber would justify a D-ring on the edge, and Im sure the screen used version had the D-ring on the edge....But Im referring to the pics of the saber used in the VD dictionary and other production photos....(Basically the version of the saber which has the control box on the opposite side of the screen used one.)
    Gav you wrote...
    </SPAN><TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD CLASS=$row_color>Quote:<HR></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS=$row_color>"If the d-ring was attached in the middle, IMO, the belt loop that hte sabre attaches to would be at a more drastic angle away from Mark's body since the clip would have to clear the outer radius of the grips, and the graflex."</TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE>

    The drastic angle you speak of can be seen in the production pic of Luke in the VD..
    I also brought up the "drastic angle" in my first post--
    <TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD CLASS=$row_color>Quote:<HR></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS=$row_color>1.) On page 8 of the SW Visual Dictionary you can see that the D-ring on Lukes belt hook is being pulled back at an angle towards the hook, what this tells me is that Lukes tunic or waist area is pushing the body of the saber forward while the D-ring is being pulled back because of the canter placement tension . This leads me to believe that the D-rings placement is in the center of the flashgun.
    If it were on the edge the D-ring would be going straight up and there would be no tension pull because there wouldnt be any resistance from Luke waiste or tunic.
    </TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE><SPAN CLASS=$row_color>
    Tell you what guys, grab a magnifying glass (humor me here) and take a very close look at the pic of Lukes D-ring attachment in the VD pic....I looked at it closely and saw the flat metal wrapped around the D-ring and continue flat against the bottom of the flashgun towards Luke belt hook.

    And yes Im sure the saber was a pain to wear during the photo shoot
     
  8. Grey Pilgrim

    Grey Pilgrim Well-Known Member

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    How about this:

    [​IMG]
     
  9. DARTH SABER

    DARTH SABER Master Member

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    THATS IT!!! * Gray Pilgrim, thats twice youve come through with the PICS!!!....

    Alright guys as you can see in the NEW pic above, if the D-ring was resting on the edge of the Graflex the strip which wraps around the d-ring would have to run in the direction of the clamp, if it ran in the opposite direction it would run off the edge of the Graflex....But in the pic IT IS running in the direction of the belt hook, and this is made possible because the D-ring is positioned in the center rather than the edge giving enough room for the strip to lay on for riveting.

    If you look at the empty space in front of the D-ring youll notice that NO flat metal is visible and NO rivot heads...The rivot is on the other side directly under the belt hook.
     
  10. Grey Pilgrim

    Grey Pilgrim Well-Known Member

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    *, i suppose i should have cropped it so you could see the clamp. oh well, there's always tomorrow. *yawn*
     
  11. nick daring

    nick daring Sr Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Well *. That does look like it is in the middle.

    I thought for sure you were just high on crack but now I'm not so sure. Now I think you're a speed freak.

    Also, doesn't that D-ring look Brassy?

    Nick

    (edit typo)
     
  12. Sporak

    Sporak Sr Member Gone but not forgotten.

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    HAHAHAHA Good show my friend...
     
  13. itbedave

    itbedave New Member

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    </SPAN><TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD CLASS=$row_color>Quote:<HR></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS=$row_color>

    Also, doesn't that D-ring look Brassy?

    Nick

    (edit typo)
    </TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE><SPAN CLASS=$row_color>

    Yep - those are definitely 2 different colors of metal there. The D-ring isn't silver.
     
  14. jediscout

    jediscout Sr Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Before you commit to brass, don't forget that the entire image has a greeny/yellow cast to it.

    It may be brass, but it could simply be a higher shine metal--which does look different from the flatter grey/silver look of the sabre body.
     
  15. THX1138

    THX1138 Well-Known Member

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    O.K.... I have just recently aquired an original vintage copy (NOT a photo copy) of the photo shown in the link below:

    http://www.geocities.com/ep2fett/7666717LsbkRonjUJ_ph.jpg

    (You will have to Copy/Paste the link into your web address bar so you can view it. It won't show up by just clicking on the link because it's on geocities.)

    The scan is very hazy, but I'm going to try and get a closup scan of the saber as soon as possible.

    The picture shows some VERY nice details of the D-ring and bracket... which I might add IS closer to the center of the tube!

    I would also like to mention that instead of the saber having 6 grips...

    ...it has 7 grips!!!

    - Jim [​IMG]
     
  16. jediscout

    jediscout Sr Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    [​IMG]

    That's the best (old) image I have. Your photo scanned in greater detail will be very helpful.
     
  17. Grey Pilgrim

    Grey Pilgrim Well-Known Member

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    F$@*%! Looks like I may have to un-drill some holes in my GRAFLEX!

    Just kidding, I Love this thread. Great find, Darth.
     
  18. DARTH SABER

    DARTH SABER Master Member

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    Thanks for the kudos Grey Pilgram, I actually coundnt have conviced anyone if it hadnt been for your scan!...
    </SPAN><TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD CLASS=$row_color>Quote:<HR></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS=$row_color>F$@*%! Looks like I may have to un-drill some holes in my GRAFLEX!</TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE><SPAN CLASS=$row_color>

    I dont think you need to do that Pilgram, the screen used version has the D-ring on the edge.....I think.
     
  19. lonepigeon

    lonepigeon Sr Member

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    Anyone else notice that little mark inbetween the grips on scout's pic? (just about half and inch from the bottom of the saber) Could this be a hole? 7 grips...
    Could this be the earliest pic of the Vader ROTJ?
    Just wild speculation.

    >>I dont think you need to do that Pilgram, the screen used version has the D-ring on the edge.....I think.<<

    Nothing is certain anymore.
    I'm glad I haven't converted my ANH yet.
     
  20. DARTH SABER

    DARTH SABER Master Member

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    Here we go again....I just paused some scenes from ANH to see if the D-ring on Luke screen used saber might also be in the center....Well, what I found is a definate...maybe.

    Theres only one scene which really shows Lukes D-ring .
    This scene is about 2 seconds before Luke says to Ben "How did My father die?"...If youll notice Luke is holding the saber in his hand and no D-ring is visible... then all of a sudden the D-ring drops down (mustve been stuck upwards flat against the bottom)...
    It kinda looks like the pivot point for the D-ring is also in the CENTER, but its a strange view and cant be sure.
    Check it out yourself if you'd like and let me know what you think.
     
  21. THX1138

    THX1138 Well-Known Member

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    Pause on the scene when everyone on the Falcon comes out of the hidden panels in the floor when they first land on the Death Star.

    Luke is sitting on the edge and it shows a good shot of the D-ring on his belt from the side.

    - Jim [​IMG]
     
  22. DARTH SABER

    DARTH SABER Master Member

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    The D-ring also looks a little bigger in the screen used version...
     
  23. lonepigeon

    lonepigeon Sr Member

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    I don't think we're dealing with two sabers.
    Here are two more pics of the "Promo" saber:
    <img src=http://mywebpages.comcast.net/lonepigeon/anhsaber1.jpg>

    As you can see the lever is stuck out at an angle like all of the other pics. The B&W almost looks centered, but when you see it from the side in color it's obviously not.

    Here's an idea. In all the promo shots the lever is sticking out. This was likely pointed out as a problem before filming. They take the clamp off and adjust the lever and them put it back together with the clamp turned around.

    I'm not sure the Icons D-ring assembly is correct and that may account for discrepancies (between the actual saber prop and what we've accepted for so long as "correct").

    The only proven difference between the prop in promo photos and the movie is the clamp position. I think we're running around in circles about the D-ring position while looking at pics of different views of the same prop.

    BTW- looking again at Jim's and Jediscout's pic after going through all these others. I see 6 grips.
     
  24. lonepigeon

    lonepigeon Sr Member

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    I'm working on trying to prove that all the promo pics we've been looking at we're taked the same day.
    The VD and Luke Standee (PoSW pic) were taken at the same time just a minute or two apart. The only difference is he's smiling.
    I think I've identified a matching dirt spot in the floor in both the Luke photos and the cast photos ( source of my saber photos above). I'm looking for something more concrete though.

    Looking again at my color photo the D-ring could almost go either way (near center or side). It's definitely not perfectly centered though.
     
  25. Boba Debt

    Boba Debt Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    I just mounted my D-Ring the way "everyone" thought it was and now I look at these pictures and I'm thinking:

    "WHAT IN THE $%^&$ WERE ALL OF YOU THINKING?????


    BTW: I'M *!!!



    PS: according to these pictures the D-ring strap has to be cut down and mounted with ONE allen screw.
     
  26. DARTH SABER

    DARTH SABER Master Member

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    Jeez, sorry about that Boba, I know your keen on your accuracy, but theres still the screen used version...we dont know much about it though.....
    BTW the D-ring definitely looks bigger than the "picture frame wall hanging" D-ring that we all use....

    Also, the pics that Lonepigeon posted also show the D-ring being pulled back toward the back belt hook, because of its centered position.
     
  27. Sporak

    Sporak Sr Member Gone but not forgotten.

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    I made my D ring out of a hanger...a clothes hanger, so it would be larger and accurate...My saber also has 7 grips on it...7 makes it look right, othewise there's too much space between them.


    </SPAN><TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD CLASS=$row_color>
    DARTH SABER wrote:
    <HR></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS=$row_color>
    Jeez, sorry about that Boba, I know your keen on your accuracy, but theres still the screen used version...we dont know much about it though.....
    BTW the D-ring definitely looks bigger than the "picture frame wall hanging" D-ring that we all use....

    </TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE><SPAN CLASS=$row_color>
     
  28. lonepigeon

    lonepigeon Sr Member

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    <img src=http://mywebpages.comcast.net/lonepigeon/bowdring.jpg>

    Here are pics of Chewie's Crossbow D-ring assembly which is the same as Luke's. If we're going to figure out what the thing even looks like we'll need all available reference. BTW- we don't even know how it's attached, rivets are most likely but at this point no assumptions.
     
  29. DARTH SABER

    DARTH SABER Master Member

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    hmmm, if this is the D-ring mount on Lukes saber, it looks like the D-ring has thinner metal and is a bit bigger than the D-ring on the "Wallmount" kits commonly used for this....
     
  30. Grey Pilgrim

    Grey Pilgrim Well-Known Member

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    This may be completely left field, but the Turkish(?) ammo pouches I got for use on a Jawa have a larger brass D-ring on the back. I'm not looking at it right now, and it's probably too big, and it's not held on by anything that resembles the attachment for the saber, but it's just a thought.
     
  31. DARTH SABER

    DARTH SABER Master Member

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    Anything is possible at this point Pilgrim.

    If the D-ring is bigger and thinner it still would hold with Lonepigeons "one" saber theory because the pics above show the bigger thinner d-ring and the one fuzzy shot in ANH shows the d-ring to be the same also, but then again its a VERY fuzzy shot..

    Also about the brass d-ring...Possible, but it could also be a tint of the chrome...Ive gone to walmart and bought metallic chromed/nickle plated D-rings and every so often one of the d-rings will be slightly discolored, having a very,very light gold tint.
     
  32. Anakin Starkiller

    Anakin Starkiller Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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  33. Grey Pilgrim

    Grey Pilgrim Well-Known Member

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  34. Banquo Fett

    Banquo Fett Well-Known Member

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    It's my opinion (according to the VD pic) that the metal piece holding the D ring is merely a flat piece of metal that has been folded (sandwiched around the ring itself). I'm guessing that there is only one screw holding that sandwiched piece together, mounted to the bottom of the Graflex. What that means for all of us who used Blastech's kit is that one of the holes we drilled in the Graflex can be used, but the other (the one farthest from the D ring) would be visible if we switched it. Â….. I wish I never saw this thread, honestly.
     
  35. DARTH SABER

    DARTH SABER Master Member

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    Actually Avalon, Theres some good news....Although I havent converted my Graflex's yet, I did do a placement test with the D-ring. Heres what I found if your using Blas-techs D-ring assembly heres what you can do...Unscrew the hex socket screws and remove the d-ring assembly. Then cut the folded metal piece exactly between the 2 holes , thus cutting off the folded metal piece with the hole farthest from the D-ring. You now should be left with a D-ring attachment that has only one hole.
    Take the d-ring and screw it back into the Graflex hole closest to the edge so that the hinge of the D-ring is placed somewhere in the center . After youve done this youll notice the the part of the D-ring attachment which folds around the D-ring is covering about 95% of the extra hole....Even thought its not perfect its still 95% of the hole.

    Before you do any cutting though try a test placement.
     
  36. Banquo Fett

    Banquo Fett Well-Known Member

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    Would anyone care to make a D ring assembly that would do this, and might be a bit wider to cover that second hole? I'm sure there would be a lot of buyers.
     
  37. gavidoc

    gavidoc Well-Known Member

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    I still say that anyone who changes the placement of their D-rings might regret it later on.

    I see no proof in any of those photos that the D-ring is center mounted.

    I do see proof that the d-ring is not as close to the edge of the graflex bottom as some like to think or have thought in the past.

    I do see proof that the style of mounting bracket used might not be what everyone uses.

    I do see proof that there is not 2 different styles of d-rings from those pictures of the sabre and that a brass d-ring wasn't used.

    But sorry Darth Sabre, from those pictures, I don't see a center mounted D-ring.
     
  38. THX1138

    THX1138 Well-Known Member

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    This might be one way to describe the D-ring position on the bottom of the tube in the picture I have that "Jediscout" posted above.

    If you were to draw 2 straight lines across the bottom of the tube spaced out equally (divide into 3 sections) the straight part of the D-ring itself would be directly on one of the lines.

    Whatever is used to attach the bracket to the tube (be it screw or rivot) would be in between the D-ring and the closest edge of the tube. That's why you can't see the screw/rivot in that picture because the bracket is in the way.

    If you think about it... that's actually a cleaner way of attaching the bracket. You can't see the bracket attachment screw/rivot when the saber is hanging on his belt.

    - Jim [​IMG]
     
  39. DARTH SABER

    DARTH SABER Master Member

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    I see no proof in any of those photos that the D-ring is center mounted.

    [attachmentid=1944]

    I do see proof that the d-ring is not as close to the edge of the graflex bottom as some like to think or have thought in the past.
    No Argument here...

    I do see proof that there is not 2 different styles of d-rings from those pictures of the sabre and that a brass d-ring wasn't used. But sorry Darth Sabre, from those pictures, I don't see a center mounted D-ring.

    OK...Argument...Notice the red line on the pick below, that red line is right on top of the seem line where the folded metal meets the bottom of the hilt (refer to pic on right for unobstructed view)...And If you'll notice the red line also cuts the round bottom of the flash into an almost perfect hemisphere, which would mean its on, or pretty * close to the canter...

    Gav, you dont have to apologize for anything, everyones entitled to their own opinion...

    Here's some more proof...If you were to look at the saber above from a profile view and rotated it so the bubbles were pointing up, it would look like the picture below....Where is the D-ring? And last is the picture below, which shows the D-ring at an angle because it is being pulled back towards the belt hook, but the reason its at an angle is because it has to clear half the diameter of the Graflex's bottom to reach the hook...because its placed in the center...
    Also youll notive the folded metal isnt running towards the control box but back towards the belt hook...Im not telling anyone how to attach their D-ring...Im just showing whats there.
     
  40. E.D.C. Studios

    E.D.C. Studios Well-Known Member

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    EDIT - I added the renders

    OK I have been fooling around with a 3D model I made of a Lukes ANH saber.

    Now I was very opposed to this new D-ring theory at first but after consulting my models it appears that the D-ring would HAVE to be of the shorter variety. It would also appear this D-ring is more towards center that what we previously thought or perhaps even perfectly centered.

    Tell me what you think:

    Here is the POSW pic
    [​IMG]

    I rendered my model from the same angle with the same rotation made to the clamp. I used the D-ring we have all been accustom to over in the past years its mounted off center, as you can see it ends up too low when looking at it from this angle.
    [​IMG]

    I then rendered this image from the same model, but with the shorter D-ring assembly. It was placed so the bottom of the D-ring was dead center on the bottom. Youll notice it matches the POSW pic just about perfectly. It would seem that the "spine" of the D-ring is dead center on the ANH graflex and runs right down the center of the 12 o'clock-6 o'clock line. In other words it follows the same direction of the "ears"

    [​IMG]

    Funny thing is, WAY back when I used to use the single screw picture hangar to mount the D-ring, but popular opinion became that the double hole one was used, so I switched to it, guess its a good thing I never threw out my stock of single hole D-rings [​IMG]
     
  41. DARTH SABER

    DARTH SABER Master Member

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    Great render EDC...Man do you know how hard it is to convince people who have been so accustomed to a theory that has been around so long thst its almost considered a fact...When I first discovered the placement I had to study that * thing for hours before I got the nerve to post it...And once I posted it I knew it was a matter of time before the rotton tomatoes would start flying my way..
    slowly but surely with the help other members (Gray pilgrim, Jedi Scout, EDC) the flying tomatoes have slowed down.
    But moving on....While the D-ring itself looks like it has a little brass tint to it, I believe that its still metallic.
    Some of the D-rings found at wallmart have a slight yellowing to them..I dont know if this is a result from age or the plating.

    Also If you look at the pic above of the D-ring hanging on Luked belt you'll see that the D-ring is chrome/nickle plated as apposed to the Elco frame hanging kits D-ring which is a dull metal...The same pic also showes the D-ring to be a little bigger and thinner in metal than the Elco frame hanging D-ring...
    Any thoughts?

    I also want to find out how this is attached...Rivet or hex socket screw???. Also, (bear with me here, I just pulled this outta my *) maybe the d-ring WAS attached with 2 rivets/hex socket screws, except they arent stacked on top of each other, but rather side by side.. I figure that 1 Revet/hex wouldnt be very secure for hanging on the belt..I know Id be worried about hanging my saber if its held on by only 1 fastener...
    Heres how I came up with this theory (its very very thin)...here goes....Look at the pic I posted above..The B&W closeup with the RED line. Now look at the same pic next to it without the RED line...Look EXTREMELY close at the area where the rivets might be....you will very very very faintly see 2 faint circle outlines next to each other (since the saber is at that angle the circles are on top of each other...If no one sees this thats OK...Its very faint.
     
  42. lonepigeon

    lonepigeon Sr Member

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    We're going to need alot more reference than this to nail this thing down to the attachment method (we barely have an idea of the mount). I think rivets are more likely, with slotted screws in second place. Personally I hate socket screws on sabers (unless it's the big ones on the Vader ROTJ). They were never used on the real props why put them on replicas?

    That scan of the VD is all yellow. The D-ring is just standard nickel plated, nice and shiny. Looks like a standard one inch D-ring like Vader's.
     
  43. DARTH SABER

    DARTH SABER Master Member

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    So, we can agree the the D-ring is a standard 1" nickel plated..Like the ones Found at Walmart? Yes, no?

    The folded metal is most likely the one that EDC mentioned..the standard 1 hole wall mount?
    (Forget that stacked rivet theory...That was probably just the coaugh syrup I drank earlier talkin)

    Is the 1 hole wall mount rounded on the end like the 2 hole version?? anyone?

    Im not even going to ask if we agree on the centered D-ring position yet....I still some some rotton tomatoes aimed at me out there..
     
  44. E.D.C. Studios

    E.D.C. Studios Well-Known Member

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    I would like to see more definitive pics too. However I am as stubborn as they come and I would have to say its the single hole bracket that is being used, simply put, there is no room for the length of the double hole version.

    If you look at the chronicle pics at the beginning of this thread, its pretty obvious that its center mounted too.

    Check it out:
    [​IMG]

    Granted the type of fasteners used is still up in the air, I also hate allen caps screws too, I would bet on slotted screws if I had to take a guess though. Rivets are cool, and neat, but is there ANY proof that they were used on anything else? Something that would suggest they used them to fasten a good deal of items so that we can assume they may have been used on the ANH saber?
     
  45. lonepigeon

    lonepigeon Sr Member

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    Rivets were used on the saber belt hooks in ANH. They were used alot more in ESB and ROTJ (X-wing vest straps, ESB saber mounts, tons on ROTJ guns).

    Their use in ESB and ROTJ proves nothing, but the belt hooks are a little support for the guess.

    This D-ring attachment doesn't look manufactured to me. We may never nail it down completely. Looks like a strip of metal folded in half- it doesn't conform to the contour of the D-ring like the picture mounts do.

    It's amazing how our whole view of the saber's D-ring is based on the darn Icons and they just copied a picture frame hanger.

    The Chronicles pic still doesn't scream center mount to me, but it could be a distorted trim job on the photo. The bottom of the D-ring looks so elliptical, more than what you would see in a profile. However if the D-ring was angled away from us it would look that elliptical easily. Like I said it could just be the bad trim or even the grip ends making the ellipse of the bottom of the flash look flatter than it is.

    So any thoughts on seven grips? Do we only assume 6 because of the ESB having 6? I double checked the Vader ANH and 6 is correct, but we will soon have a better pic which implies 7 for Luke's. Looking at the Vader ROTJ grip spacing (compare to Luke ANH Chronicles), 7 doesn't seem that far fetched.
     
  46. E.D.C. Studios

    E.D.C. Studios Well-Known Member

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    </SPAN><TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD CLASS=$row_color>
    lonepigeon wrote:
    <HR></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS=$row_color>
    This D-ring attachment doesn't look manufactured to me. We may never nail it down completely. Looks like a strip of metal folded in half- it doesn't conform to the contour of the D-ring like the picture mounts do.</TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE>

    OK I have to ask, how in the hell can you tell it does not conform to the D-ring, or that it does not look manufactured? You can barely even see it in these pics. If you have other reference shots, please post them.

    The one thing I do notice, that if it is the same D-ring bracket as on the bowcaster as you say, it is clearly crimped around the D-ring, that much can be seen. So then it would not be just a folded piece of metal. Given its use on more than one item it is also likely that its a found piece.

    <TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD CLASS=$row_color>
    lonepigeon wrote:
    <HR></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS=$row_color>
    The Chronicles pic still doesn't scream center mount to me, but it could be a distorted trim job on the photo. The bottom of the D-ring looks so elliptical, more than what you would see in a profile. However if the D-ring was angled away from us it would look that elliptical easily. Like I said it could just be the bad trim or even the grip ends making the ellipse of the bottom of the flash look flatter than it is.
    </TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE>

    Dude I drew a line straight through center, it lines up pefectly, if its not dead center, its REALLY close like withing a millimeter. As for the D-ring, it depends on the type of ring used, some bow out more than other, and some have sharper "d" profiled, and some are in between. Then again, your right, it could just be the angle of viewing too. Also keep in mind that if only one screw is holding it down, it could spin a bit leaving it not 100% "true" in the pics.

    <TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD CLASS=$row_color>
    lonepigeon wrote:
    <HR></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS=$row_color>
    So any thoughts on seven grips?</TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE><SPAN CLASS=$row_color>

    I seriously doubt there were seven grips.
    Look again at my renders, youll see the grips line up and match the real pics, and my model has 6 on it, if there were seven they would be grossly misaligned in comparison.

    I would guess however that the grip spacing isnt quite even and perfect.
     
  47. Howard

    Howard Sr Member

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    </SPAN><TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD CLASS=$row_color>
    DARTH SABER wrote:
    <HR></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS=$row_color>
    BTW the D-ring definitely looks bigger than the "picture frame wall hanging" D-ring that we all use....
    </TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE><SPAN CLASS=$row_color>

    Darth Saber's right, I think. Take a look at the scene in Ben's hut again. Towards the end Mark places his finger through the D-ring and the saber dangles. Now, I have smaller than average hands, but getting my finger through the JS D-ring up to the first joint is not easy. Try it with your sabers. Also the saber seems to be supported from nearer the centre than the edge when Mark's finger is through it.


    The postcard pic also shows the D-ring to be almost three quarters the diameter of the tube bottom at its mounting point.

    I think from looking at SWVD pictures the D-ring is slightly off centre.

    Just my 2 cents worth.

    Ro.
     
  48. Shinobi

    Shinobi Well-Known Member

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    </SPAN><TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD CLASS=$row_color>
    lonepigeon wrote:
    <HR></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS=$row_color>

    It's amazing how our whole view of the saber's D-ring is based on the darn Icons and they just copied a picture frame hanger.

    </TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE><SPAN CLASS=$row_color>

    I couldn't agree more. Because Icons released their version of the hanger, we've become so accustomed to it that we never REALLY looked at the pictures until now. Great thread. I always believed that people attached their D-ring assemblies too close to the edge instead of centering it a bit more. However this one screw/rivet assembly is news to me. Hmmm...

    Btw, I would go with rivets - it just looks better [​IMG]
     
  49. E.D.C. Studios

    E.D.C. Studios Well-Known Member

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    Ok I di some more research with the aid of my 3D model...

    I realized that even though I drew a line through center on the Chronicles pic in my post above, I still had to account for depth into the picture in relation to the flashes rotation to figure out placement of the D-ring.

    The model is rotated a few degrees to match the angle of the real pic, and the clamp is also offset a few additional degrees too just like the real pic.

    I also put on SEVEN evenly spaced grips just for * and giggles, here is what I got:

    [​IMG]

    Now let me remind you this model is accurate in all measurements EXCEPT the red button and its placement, but the parts we are dealing with are what counts here anyway.

    First off notice the grip line up to the pic with the proper spacing, I would have NEVER wanted to believe it, but I have to admit I am now seeing 7 grips there, alignment and spacing are * near perfect.

    As for the D-ring, you'll notice it looks just a bit high on the model, thats because it is perfectly centered. Now if you were to butt the rounded edge of a single hole bracket against the inner lip of the bottom of the Graflex. the D-ring will fall about .125" lower than it is now, which would make it line up with the "center" line just like on the real pic

    BTW the center line on these pics is not a true center, more just a line of reference, you can see though that all concerned details fall into the righ place on both the real pic and the model.

    I really think we are onto something here now
     
  50. Howard

    Howard Sr Member

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    I've only been a member here for a short time, but his is the most interesting post I've read.

    Charles, any chance of posting an 'end on' render of the new centered D-ring and seven grip assembly?

    It looks to me from the postcard pic that the saber has 7 grips. If you lay your 6 grip saber on the floor it doesn't rest at quite the same angle to the saber at Mark's foot.
    Also, can I see Mark's shoe through the edge of the D-ring in this pic, or is it a grip? Either way, this would make the D-ring larger and thinner than the JS ring most of us have.

    This is a real NAG. (Need Another Graflex!)

    With MR latest release of the Vader ANH saber, it will be interesting to see what they come up with if they release the Luke Graflex!? Perhaps they're re-thinking their plans even now...
     

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