Profiles in History's "The Dreier Collection" auction hammers $2.4 million

Regarding bidding and reserves and various auction houses and their policies in this regard, this is an interesting video shot by Mark (who posted above as tardis55; his related article on his Prop Stop website can be read HERE) from a Premiere Props live auction back in March:

Premiereprops auction - YouTube

Jason
 
I think a lot of false assumptions are being made based on false assumptions. The low estimate in the Profiles in History catalog is the reserve. The low reserve price listed is the price the item will sell for. The auctioneer can, at his discretion, start the bidding at a few increments below the low number listed in the catalog description to get momentum going on the item. If you are live at the auction, you can see this.
If you watch LiveAuctioneers or iCollector, the item starts at the low number listed in the catalog description.

James
 
I think a lot of false assumptions are being made based on false assumptions. The low estimate in the Profiles in History catalog is the reserve. The low reserve price listed is the price the item will sell for. The auctioneer can, at his discretion, start the bidding at a few increments below the low number listed in the catalog description to get momentum going on the item. If you are live at the auction, you can see this.
If you watch LiveAuctioneers or iCollector, the item starts at the low number listed in the catalog description.

James

Right but what he is saying is an auction house bidding against a interested buyer is like playing the house with a loaded deck . Not sure how anyone can argue that .
 
my head hurts.....

Jason it doesn't take two people. It takes one.

In the case of Profiles starting the bidding at $60K and someone bids and its sold. Thats the purpose of them finding bidders for certain items. We have all seen that done.

As for PP yes my video does show people basically bidding against themselves.

And that company in IL that you mentioned bidding people up on the sporting stuff did it too.

I don't think you are an observer though Jason. You have sold thru Profiles, bought (I think) thru profiles and now as is our right analyzing Profiles.

You and I know or highly suspect the game that is being played as much as anyone else which is why your asking for transparency. I respect it...and respect you for it. The call is kinda ringing on deaf ears though.

The biggest problem with Profiles is making the rest of the free market think these props are as overvalued as some people have come to regard them...but no seller would ever say that because as a seller we all want the best price.

Nuff said.

My head still hurts.

Oh...and I still think comparing prices, which is what your doing in a down economy is hard unless the upper echelon of prop collectors arent hurt by the economy which I think is what your saying. I'd ask them but most aren't on the board or never say anything anyway...lol.
 
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I think a lot of false assumptions are being made based on false assumptions. The low estimate in the Profiles in History catalog is the reserve. The low reserve price listed is the price the item will sell for. The auctioneer can, at his discretion, start the bidding at a few increments below the low number listed in the catalog description to get momentum going on the item. If you are live at the auction, you can see this.
If you watch LiveAuctioneers or iCollector, the item starts at the low number listed in the catalog description.

James

Hi James,

Can you specifically identify all of these false assumptions, and correct them with facts that can be verified? Otherwise I have no idea what you are talking about, or to whom your comment is directed.

What is a "low reserve price"?

If we are talking specifically about Profiles in History, their definition of the actual reserve is, per the Conditions of Sale (Dreier Collection catalog, Page 2):

Lots may be subject to a reserve which is the confidential minimum price below which the lot will not be sold.
Further, per the Auction General Guidelines (Dreier Collection catalog, Page 3):

Reserves
The reserve is the minimum price the seller is willing to accept and below which a lot will not be sold. This amount is confidential and will not exceed the low pre-sale estimate.
In both instances in the catalog, the reserve is stated to be "confidential". It could also be lower than the low pre-sale estimate (not necessarily the same as or equal to). There could also be no reserve at all. But a potential buyer cannot know exactly what it is, or if there even is one, since it is confidential.

Can you show me (quote and cite) from the Conditions of Sale, the Auction General Guidelines, or anything else published by Profiles in History for this specific auction that states that there is always a reserve, and that the reserve is always "[t]he low estimate in the Profiles in History catalog".

In a perfect world, wouldn't it be preferable that there be more transparency and perhaps even some oversight in the auction world?

If some of these conditions were removed (i.e. confidential reserves, house bids, etc.), I think in the long term, more people would have more confidence in the system, and be more likely to bid on items (and bid their maximum amount) if they felt assured that it was a level playing field, everyone had the same information, and every bid was a bid made by a party interested, willing, and able to buy the item at the price that they bid. I just don't see any viable argument against those principles. But I would love to hear a convincing counter argument (i.e. pro confidential reserves, pro house bids, etc.).

Thanks,

Jason
 
The issue with live auctions is, if there is only one interested party, with no none to bid against them, if they start below the reserve, the item will not sell. The interested party may be willing to meet the reserve, but with no one to bid against, the selling price stalls - even if the sole interested party was willing to pay the reserve.

From what I've observed at the auctions I've attended, it is up to the interested party (or parties) to cross the reserve threshhold. And once that reserve is met, the auction house doesn't bid on the item just to jack up the price.

This whole thing is a cautionary tale on 'flipping.' If that was this seller's intent, it was a risky one. But there is another cautionary tale here too - getting caught up in the collecting hobby. "Saw that in a movie, gotta have it. Ooohhh, I like that too, I'll get it." Before long, you have a house FULL of this stuff, it loses its appeal, and you decide to move on. And lose money in the process. I always wonder about the big collectors out there.

Anybody want to buy a bunch of Star Wars action figures? I got 'em a while ago and the boxes are just taking up space in my garage.

Gene
 
Sorry Jason, I guess I am not understanding what you are stating. Are you saying there is a reserve above the low estimate price? i.e. if the item low estimate price is $1000 there is another reserve above that?

On another note:
Your "apples to apples" comparison on lot #1 (20,000 Leagues Nautilus) is incorrect. The Nautilus that sold in April 2007 was four feet long. The Nautilus that sold on Saturday was 11 feet long and included a squid. So your original vs. new price change amount might be a bit skewed.

James
 
my head hurts.....

Jason it doesn't take two people. It takes one.

In the case of Profiles starting the bidding at $60K and someone bids and its sold. Thats the purpose of them finding bidders for certain items. We have all seen that done.

Yes, you are absolutely right. I stand corrected. If someone is willing to independently bid up to the "confidential reserve", it does only require one buyer to set benchmark prices.

As for PP yes my video does show people basically bidding against themselves.

Have you ever asked Premiere Props about the example of that activity in that video?

And that company in IL that you mentioned bidding people up on the sporting stuff did it too.

Mark is referencing an ongoing FBI investigation that I've been following on my website for years (LINK).

Completely unrelated to Profiles in History, but on the topic of bidding laws, the FBI have brought indictments against principals from Mastro Auctions, (formerly) one of the biggest auction houses in the sports memorabilia world, "for allegedly rigging auctions through a series of deceptive practices, including so-called “shill-bidding,” designed to inflate prices paid by bidders and to protect the interests of consignors and sellers at the expense of unwitting bidders". The latest about this ongoing story can be read at the New York Daily News website (LINK).

But I've covered the topic of bidding at live auction extensively on my site. One of the more interesting developments involved a New York State Assembly Bill (LINK), and the fact that what appears to be sensible legislation has not passed, I think, in part illustrates the power of auction houses and their reluctance to embrace some pro-consumer legislation. I've never heard any update with regards to this bill since my last article on it in 2010...

I don't think you are an observer though Jason. You have sold thru Profiles, bought (I think) thru profiles and now as is our right analyzing Profiles.

Believe it or not, I only ever bought one piece from Profiles, in 2008. It was less than $1500 (with fees, etc.) and I sold it shortly thereafter at my cost to another collector who needed it to complete a set in his own collection.

I've sold some pieces through Profiles - maybe half a dozen - but the last time I conducted such business with them was, IIRC, also in 2008.

None of that affects my third-party views and opinions though (other than making me more informed, from my first hand experience).

Oh...and I still think comparing prices, which is what your doing in a down economy is hard unless the upper echelon of prop collectors arent hurt by the economy which I think is what your saying.

I was saying that this is as apples to apples as you are going to get. The economy always changes, but much of this material that was resold over the weekend was purchased in the same down economy regardless.

From my examples, here is how it breaks down - the year in which each of the lots in my analysis were originally purchased by the Dreier Collection:

2011 - I, I
2010 - I, I, I, I, I
2009 - I, I, I, I
2008 - I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I
2007 - I, I, I, I, I
2006 - I, I, I, I
2005 - I, I
2004
2003 - I
2002
2001

The housing bubble burst (which is arguable the start of the decline of the economy) was circa Summer 2006. So nearly everything in my example in the article I published on my site was originally purchased by the Dreier Collection in a really bad economy.

Jason
 
As a prop collector I did like the show even with its many faults . Now that all of this has come out It always struck me funny that just about every item on the show was bid on at the last possible moment to keep it going . Not sure if the show was a reality show or that part was acted out .

But the owner himself was on the phone a lot taking bids or was he ?

Is that legal to lie and act like yes phone bidder all the while he is trying to trick buyers into going up?
 
From what I've seen, and it was only through Premiere Props, they bid up to the reserve against you at times. Some items don't have reserve and sell for cheap if no one else bids against you. I don't think Profiles really works that way because they tend to start the bidding, generally, at the reserve and let it not sell if no one bids, I believe.

Example of premiere prop
Item has a reserve of $500 and the opening bid is $50.
Someone bids $50 and no one else bids. Premiere Props will bid against the bidder to get the price higher and try to meet the reserve. Cheating? Not really, since it won't be sold anyways if it doesn't meet the reserve. Doing that after the reserve is met? Shady business. I'm not even close to being informed in any area of auctions to know how often that happens and would hope it is on the lower end, but that is just wishful thinking.
 
The issue with live auctions is, if there is only one interested party, with no none to bid against them, if they start below the reserve, the item will not sell. The interested party may be willing to meet the reserve, but with no one to bid against, the selling price stalls - even if the sole interested party was willing to pay the reserve.

Right, and my issue is with what amounts to what I'll call "the theatrics".

If the consignor will only take a certain amount, then they should just start the bidding at that amount. It makes absolutely no sense to have pretend bidding leading up to the reserve. Just start the bidding at the reserve. If there are no bids, it doesn't sell.

Anybody want to buy a bunch of Star Wars action figures? I got 'em a while ago and the boxes are just taking up space in my garage.

Gene

Vintage? :love Or cases of Prequel Jar Jar figures? :lol

Jason
 
I did ask them Jason. They claimed it was a computer glitch between the two services they use and that it jumped the gun occasionally and had to be brought back.

I took them to there word to be honest because Dawn at Premiere know I was upset and wanted to make it clear what had happened.

Ill have more on this hopefully tomorrow or wednesday.
 
Sorry Jason, I guess I am not understanding what you are stating. Are you saying there is a reserve above the low estimate price? i.e. if the item low estimate price is $1000 there is another reserve above that?

No, I said nothing of the sort.

You had stated:

I think a lot of false assumptions are being made based on false assumptions

I asked for clarification, and challenged your stated definition of "reserve" with what was published in the Profiles in History catalog, which is different, from my reading.

On another note:
Your "apples to apples" comparison on lot #1 (20,000 Leagues Nautilus) is incorrect. The Nautilus that sold in April 2007 was four feet long. The Nautilus that sold on Saturday was 11 feet long and included a squid. So your original vs. new price change amount might be a bit skewed.

James

Thank you for pointing that out - an error on my part that no one else has pointed out. I will do further research and update my article accordingly. Thanks for that - I really appreciate it.

Jason
 
From what I've seen, and it was only through Premiere Props, they bid up to the reserve against you at times. Some items don't have reserve and sell for cheap if no one else bids against you. I don't think Profiles really works that way because they tend to start the bidding, generally, at the reserve and let it not sell if no one bids, I believe.

Example of premiere prop
Item has a reserve of $500 and the opening bid is $50.
Someone bids $50 and no one else bids. Premiere Props will bid against the bidder to get the price higher and try to meet the reserve. Cheating? Not really, since it won't be sold anyways if it doesn't meet the reserve. Doing that after the reserve is met? Shady business. I'm not even close to being informed in any area of auctions to know how often that happens and would hope it is on the lower end, but that is just wishful thinking.

I did some analysis with one Premiere Props auction (as did Mark on his PropStop site) with regards to items from "Mirror Mirror" appearing to have sold at auction, only to reappear in a subsequent auction:

Mirror Mirror or Deja Vu? Premiere Props “Mirror Mirror” Movie Props and Costumes (including “the one and only one”) in Back To Back Auctions?

In a few cases, per the records of the online bidding partner, the low estimate was exceeded in bidding, yet the items reappeared in the following auction.

Jason
 
Jason
I think I understand what you are getting at. If an item has a low pre-sale estimate of $1000 and the bidding starts at $500. I have seen that happen a few times and I have seen the item sell for less than the low pre-sale estimate.
James
 
I've watched Profiles auctions in person. From what I've seen, the minimum 'estimate' price _IS_ the reserve price. If that price is met, the item sells. The auctioneer will 'phantom bid' the piece up to that price (or one increment below it) _before_ taking any real bids. If the reserve is $6000, he just sits there and says 'I have a bid of 4500, now 5000, and now 5500, do I have any bids for $6000?' and that's where the auction starts. I've never seen PIH bid against a real bidder after the minimum 'estimate' has been reached. (I haven't been to their last 4 or so auctions, so I suppose that may have changed, but it's still the same guy doing the auctions.)

This is, apparently, a completely legal and legit way to handle auction reserves (I think there's even a term for it, but it's not 'shill bidding'). No one places a real bid until the reserve is 'met', and no messing around with tiny bid increments when you are $1000s away from the reserve anyway... This activity is obvious when watching the auction in person.

Premiere on the other hand... I'd avoid them like a plague... I've seen them outbid real bidders, and then when no one else bid, they'd cancel their bid and sell it to the next lowest bidder (but at his absolute maximum bid...) I assume that's been discussed above, I didn't read all those posts. :)

Rik
 
I've watched Profiles auctions in person. From what I've seen, the minimum 'estimate' price _IS_ the reserve price. If that price is met, the item sells. The auctioneer will 'phantom bid' the piece up to that price (or one increment below it) _before_ taking any real bids. If the reserve is $6000, he just sits there and says 'I have a bid of 4500, now 5000, and now 5500, do I have any bids for $6000?' and that's where the auction starts. I've never seen PIH bid against a real bidder after the minimum 'estimate' has been reached. (I haven't been to their last 4 or so auctions, so I suppose that may have changed, but it's still the same guy doing the auctions.)

This is, apparently, a completely legal and legit way to handle auction reserves (I think there's even a term for it, but it's not 'shill bidding'). No one places a real bid until the reserve is 'met', and no messing around with tiny bid increments when you are $1000s away from the reserve anyway... This activity is obvious when watching the auction in person.

Premiere on the other hand... I'd avoid them like a plague... I've seen them outbid real bidders, and then when no one else bid, they'd cancel their bid and sell it to the next lowest bidder (but at his absolute maximum bid...) I assume that's been discussed above, I didn't read all those posts. :)

Rik

All I know is I won 4 items in a Premiere Props auction. Came out to around $400 total, nothing crazy. They charged me $450 in shipping and two months later I still have nothing from them.

I bought items from Screenused's first auction and because one of them lives close to me, hand delivered to my house free of charge with no shipping or transport fees. Complete class acts. I should add they delivered BEFORE a week had gone by!
 
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