Problematic changes to Shapeways “fine detail” plastic.

[3Dsf]

Hi, folks. I just thought I'd let the community know of a serious pair of problems with the "fine detail" processes used by Shapeways. For some years this has been the mainstay for reasonable quality wax-supported prints in the model-making community, albeit at a rather high price.

I, and many other designers, have used it successfully to produce decent prints for people interested in my 3D designs for model-making.

Over the past little while Shapeways have moved away from their old "frosted" or translucent prints made on ProJet gear. They now sell prints using VisiJet M2R plastics. In many ways it's an improvement, since the new prints don't have the "crumbly wax on one surface" problem that the old process had.

They offer two types of plastic: VisiJet M2R-TN1 "tan" and VisiJet M2R-CL1 "clear", the latter priced higher. For a brief period they offered VisiJet M2R-GRY1 "grey" plastic as an option, before switching to tan.

There are two problems.

1) VisiJet M2R "tan" plastic is more brittle than the previous type used. This means a higher level of broken details.

But worse, they have silently changed the print guidelines for the plastic, increasing the minimum wall thickness, etc. That means that many of us with Shapeways "fine plastic" products have suddenly got products that are rejected as unprintable. As you can imagine, reworking all the products is a massively time-consuming problem.

See those areas in red? Those all have to be redone on this design. A design which passed fine the other month. Multiply that by each design I have.

This is a really aggravating change. In fact, the data sheet for VisiJet plastics specifically mentions that "tan" plastic has a lower durability rating. They give "tan" a rating of three, versus grey and clear which have ratings of four.

It appears they made the change because tan has a greater heat resistance than grey. Unfortunately it has other disastrous side-effects.

2) VisiJet M2R-TN1 "tan" is a dirty yellow, not tan. What they means is that it's got an objectionable colour cast. If you're painting it white or a light colour, the yellow tone seeps through (visually, not chemically). You then have to put layers of thicker paint to increase the opacity, thus reducing details.

This wasn't a problem with either translucent or grey plastics. Shapeways have indicated that they do not intend to offer VisiJet M2R-GRY "grey" again, or VisiJet M2R-WT "white" or VisiJet M2R-BK "black".

If you're affected by either issue, please let Shapeways know what you think. I don't have high hopes that they'll at least given us grey plastic as an option and so fix both problems, but if we don't tell them, they definitely won't!

 

[edge10]

Well, that roundly stinks.

I snooze, I lose. Should have ordered stuff, a long time ago.

 

[Analyzer]

Ouch, that is terrible news

time to fire off an angry email...

 

[Millenniumf]

I'm so glad I already bought all the parts I need for my Millennium Falcon mods.

 

[division 6]

Maybe it's time to invest in getting your own printer.

 

[joberg]

Try to get quality these days is a struggle at best...They wont get my business

 

[3Dsf]

Maybe it's time to invest in getting your own printer.

What makes you think I don't?

I have a Formlabs 2. Which doesn't work very well anymore, but when it does, it produces very high quality prints. But it's not a multijet printer with wax supports, so can't print objects that lack stick supports.

On top of that, I'm not going to make prints and try to sell them. Shapeways' printing and fulfilment function is otherwise pretty good, and is the only game in town in that respect.

 

[JoelSG]

I'll admit, I never would have gotten a 3D printer or got into 3D modeling if it weren't for Shapeways. I've thought of uploading some of my STLs there just to see how it would go, but this situation makes that impossible. It's like they want you to dumb down your model for a substandard printer.

 

[3Dsf]

I'll admit, I never would have gotten a 3D printer or got into 3D modeling if it weren't for Shapeways. I've thought of uploading some of my STLs there just to see how it would go, but this situation makes that impossible. It's like they want you to dumb down your model for a substandard printer.

I agree - I've learnt a lot through purchasing Shapeways prints, and eventually opening my own store. It's really a shame they're moving in the direction they are, but then, the profit motive is a powerful thing in corporate America (now that they're no longer Dutch!).

But I don't know if their new changes make things impossible. They make things seriously difficult for those of us with stores with existing content, though.

 

[3Dsf]

Incidentally I've opened a dialogue with their support, for what it's worth:

Serious Problems With “tan” Detail Plastic.

I'm not one to post public complaints, but this is such a serious issue I feel compelled to try and open a little discussion about this problem. Last...

www.shapeways.com

ie: a ton of blah blah blah from me...

 

[joberg]

As you said Neil, the changes have been made and I don't think that their new business model will accommodate the small businesses anymore.
Is spending mucho $$$ for a printer that could do the job for your store is an option?
As far as you're concerned, having small detailed prints covered in coats of paint is certainly not the answer! I didn't know that the company was bought and is not longer Dutch, btw...

 

[rbeach84]

This happens when there is a monopoly (in essence...). Instead of competing to be the best, they are only looking at ways to increase the profit margin.
Very short sighted, in my opinion, since will only have a negative impact on their sales, once folks see the results.

Regards, Robert

 

[3Dsf]

Is spending mucho $$$ for a printer that could do the job for your store is an option?

Not an option, I'm afraid. I'm not looking to open a printing service - that's not a way to break even, let alone make money. And the amount of labour involved is massive, on top of the capital investment. I'd rather spend my time elsewhere.

No, the whole strength of the Shapeways shop model was that it was a way of outsourcing production, packaging, shipping, and customer support for your hobbyist designs. But they've been moving away from that model for many many years, since it's probably not profitable for them either!

 

[edge10]

A case of: You don't know what you have, until it's gone.

 

[3Dsf]

For those interested, I've written up a page on the subject of Shapeways "fine detail" plastic - its history and its strengths and drawbacks. I should probably add some photos of some of the points, though.

The Age of Plastic - Shapeways Plastics

Shapeways is an American 3D printing company. They specialize in 3D printing products using a variety of materials, typically for end users. They pioneered commercial sales of this type of printing, in fact. In the years before affordable home 3D printers hit the market, this was a very interesting

sites.google.com

 

[joberg]

For those interested, I've written up a page on the subject of Shapeways "fine detail" plastic - its history and its strengths and drawbacks. I should probably add some photos of some of the points, though.

The Age of Plastic - Shapeways Plastics

Shapeways is an American 3D printing company. They specialize in 3D printing products using a variety of materials, typically for end users. They pioneered commercial sales of this type of printing, in fact. In the years before affordable home 3D printers hit the market, this was a very interesting

sites.google.com

Thourough and interesting read Neil

 

[modelerdave]

After increasingly bad experiences with the quality and size of the things I've ordered from Shapeways, I've pretty much decided they're no longer worth the cost. I'll stick with stock parts, find .stl files elsewhere, or if they're simple enough try to design my own.

 

[sk1965]

I've now purchased just about everything I need from Shapeways (all model train loco/coach bodies) , thankfully, unless I decide to make multiple models of the designs available. While I have no idea what the actual costs/issues are to print in 3D with this tan or ultra clear plastic, I can't say I'm in any way particularly content with the price or quality/finish. Whether this is due to the product design or the product production I don't know.

22% of my purchases have broken; either during shipment or during handling and this has always followed recessed lines. Guess that's a profile thickness issue. Brittle yes, breaklines are not jagged but clean. Re-gluing with either CA or Epoxy is pretty lame and not strong. Painting.... spray painting with enamels/lacquers with/without primers takes days (without using a heating box) to dry and leaves staining where the plastic has absorbed different amounts of paint. I've got model projects in brass and 3D plastic, my brass looks spectacular using prime and rattle can paint, the 3D not so. I have yet to try using pure water based acrylics.

Sanding all those bloody stratification lines off was something I did not expect to do and has softened or removed some details that 3D is praised at being able to reproduce. Kinda makes this whole 3D thing pointless, just stick to using resin products? I have ordered some shells in ultra clear just to see if the cost is worth it. Online, I have seen 3D prints of models and purchased some with super smooth surfaces.

So am I missing some important point regarding Shapeways? Am I being too hopeful that it is possible to print stuff that doesn't need you to sand down the surface? If this is the way it goes, or can be avoided by printing in different materials, why doesn't Shapeways offer more material choices than the two mentioned in this thread. I understand cost comes into it, but I'd rather pay $400 for a nice smooth shell than $100 for something that looks like ****.

That's my 4cents

 

[curiouslysophie]

I recently ordered a part from them that arrived squashed and unusable. I contacted them and to be fair they sent out another part really quickly, but this was also squashed.
Their lower quality and ever increasing prices mean I will avoid them from now on. I will just design my own parts rather than order from them. My Saturn 3 Ultra does great prints and my Mars 4 Ultra is fantastic at small details.

My advice is if you need a print or a part designed, commission someone to do it for you, that way a small maker gets the work and it'll probably be cheaper!