I can't respond for Jason, but it is a double-edged sword. It is actually good that Jason gave Mr. Zine full latitude in saying what he wanted to say without questioning any of it as being accurate or not as then we have a complete picture of the thinking behind the claims. If someone isn't questioned, they will feel free to say more. Certainly there could have been some hard questions asked, that I think a lot of us Vader nuts would like to ask, but then there is also the courtesy that has to be extended to an interviewee, independent of how right or wrong he may be. Asking the hard questions would have put Mr. Zine on guard and he would have offered less, I would think. Perhaps the only way around such controversy is to interview someone else as a counterpoint, such as someone who has firsthand knowledge of the production. Just a suggestion.
original esb vader costume on the auction block
- Thread starter piehead
- Start date
Qui-Gonzalez
Master Member
I guess you DO have a point. I am extending a PUBLIC APOLOGY to Jason for lashing out without listening first, but I feel that things like this allow these types of fallacies to be perpetuated.
As others have pointed out...DP was given permission to make this guy a suit? Whaaaaaaatever.
This sale will go through. I only wish the person who buys it would ask people who KNOW and not people he who will tell him what he or she wants to hear. He basically downplays every other crafter with Vader knowledge.
Too much of him trying to SELL it to people. Too much trying to prove and not being objective to what he has. The people have proven that what he is selling is NOT ESB production made anything. Too many statements that contradict and too much rambling about what he does not know.
As others have pointed out...DP was given permission to make this guy a suit? Whaaaaaaatever.
This sale will go through. I only wish the person who buys it would ask people who KNOW and not people he who will tell him what he or she wants to hear. He basically downplays every other crafter with Vader knowledge.
Too much of him trying to SELL it to people. Too much trying to prove and not being objective to what he has. The people have proven that what he is selling is NOT ESB production made anything. Too many statements that contradict and too much rambling about what he does not know.
The sale may or may not go through. First there have to be bids. But even after the sale, it won't be over as we know of past instances where Christie's sold something at auction that turned out not to be authentic, and the repercussions were not insignificant.
A couple of examples:
Christie's sued in fake wine case
Star Trek fakes....lost litigation
Excerpt:
A couple of examples:
Christie's sued in fake wine case
Star Trek fakes....lost litigation
Excerpt:
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To the posters in this thread,
Concerns have been raised regarding what is believed to be personal attacks against the seller of this piece. While we won't limit your dissection of the suit for sale or your assessment of its authenticity, when it comes to comments regarding the seller or you "knowing" the seller's intentions... those kind of comments need to be left at the door. There are sites out there that allow that kind of rhetoric and if you feel you MUST make those kind of comments, you need to seek out those venues. Keep your comments here focused on the object being sold, not the seller.
Concerns have been raised regarding what is believed to be personal attacks against the seller of this piece. While we won't limit your dissection of the suit for sale or your assessment of its authenticity, when it comes to comments regarding the seller or you "knowing" the seller's intentions... those kind of comments need to be left at the door. There are sites out there that allow that kind of rhetoric and if you feel you MUST make those kind of comments, you need to seek out those venues. Keep your comments here focused on the object being sold, not the seller.
Well that's part of it, we don't know who did the mods to the mask, or when they were done. Clearly there must be some history of that if the original suit was in Farmer's hands the whole time?
So when Farmer got the original ESB costume what could we assume? That he proceeded to remove the mounting ring, clean off the top of the mask (ie: remove the tabs that would be left over in the casting), remove the lenses, grills, tusks, straps, foam and then fill in the tusk tube undercut, including the undercut next to the mouth triangle. And on top of that add more undercut to the rear of the mask and then remounted a mounting ring and re-cut the strap slots, add back straps, lenses, grills, foam and tusks, and then repaint it?
Why do all of that to an "original" mask? :confused
I would strongly suspect that Farmer would not have had any instructions from LFL to fix up the original ESB suit nor has he indicated as such as far as I know. So for such extensive modifications, there must be a record of some kind. That's another reason why this background doesn't make sense. Actually there's something even more disconcerting about the helmet that I'll be mentioning once I cover a few bases...
So when Farmer got the original ESB costume what could we assume? That he proceeded to remove the mounting ring, clean off the top of the mask (ie: remove the tabs that would be left over in the casting), remove the lenses, grills, tusks, straps, foam and then fill in the tusk tube undercut, including the undercut next to the mouth triangle. And on top of that add more undercut to the rear of the mask and then remounted a mounting ring and re-cut the strap slots, add back straps, lenses, grills, foam and tusks, and then repaint it?
Why do all of that to an "original" mask? :confused
I would strongly suspect that Farmer would not have had any instructions from LFL to fix up the original ESB suit nor has he indicated as such as far as I know. So for such extensive modifications, there must be a record of some kind. That's another reason why this background doesn't make sense. Actually there's something even more disconcerting about the helmet that I'll be mentioning once I cover a few bases...
Too Much Garlic
Master Member
Well, this is soon happening. Guess we'll see what happens.
Brian Muir
Well-Known Member
double post
Brian Muir
Well-Known Member
Just to confirm Lucasfilm's stance on this auction :-
Received from Christie's today
Further to my email dated 2nd November 2010, in order to ensure there is no misunderstanding with regard to Lucasfilm’s position concerning Christie’s offering Lot 123 for sale, we wish to confirm that Lucasfilm do not, as a practice, authenticate items offered for sale which are claimed to be props and accordingly have not authenticated these items. Lucasfilm have neither approved nor endorsed the sale of these items.
Received from Christie's today
Further to my email dated 2nd November 2010, in order to ensure there is no misunderstanding with regard to Lucasfilm’s position concerning Christie’s offering Lot 123 for sale, we wish to confirm that Lucasfilm do not, as a practice, authenticate items offered for sale which are claimed to be props and accordingly have not authenticated these items. Lucasfilm have neither approved nor endorsed the sale of these items.
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Given that Christie's is going to be so recalcitrant about this in spite of tremendous evidence to the contrary that I won't elaborate on completely right now, let us have a look at one example of what is wrong here.
Below on the left is the inside of the auction helmet claimed to be an original ESB helmet. Note that it has a pink colored "B" written inside the mounting ring.
So for what reason would there be a "B" inside both helmets? And written in the same hand?
Then, bottom right, we see the inside of a known ESB helmet from N. J. Farmer Associates Ltd. This is the way it should look inside, with writing similar to that seen on original ESB helmets. But it isn't. If Mr. Zine received the two suits from Farmer, who put the "B" inside and is Christie's using this as any kind of evidence of provenance? It isn't.
That's just the tip of the iceberg here.
The fact of the matter is, this auction helmet does not resemble an actual ESB helmet that Farmer made in 1980 (I'm also talking about the mask). If it doesn't resemble a known ESB Farmer helmet, then how could that helmet have come from this auction helmet, which is supposed to be the original upon which the Farmer tour suits were based?
It didn't, because this is not the original.
Below on the left is the inside of the auction helmet claimed to be an original ESB helmet. Note that it has a pink colored "B" written inside the mounting ring.
So for what reason would there be a "B" inside both helmets? And written in the same hand?
Then, bottom right, we see the inside of a known ESB helmet from N. J. Farmer Associates Ltd. This is the way it should look inside, with writing similar to that seen on original ESB helmets. But it isn't. If Mr. Zine received the two suits from Farmer, who put the "B" inside and is Christie's using this as any kind of evidence of provenance? It isn't.
That's just the tip of the iceberg here.
The fact of the matter is, this auction helmet does not resemble an actual ESB helmet that Farmer made in 1980 (I'm also talking about the mask). If it doesn't resemble a known ESB Farmer helmet, then how could that helmet have come from this auction helmet, which is supposed to be the original upon which the Farmer tour suits were based?
It didn't, because this is not the original.
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jdebord
Sr Member
Hi Thomas,
What do you mean by "a known ESB helmet from N. J. Farmer Associates Ltd." in your first quoted sentence above? Do you mean a "tour" helmet or "original" helmet? How is it known (i.e. where would one find more details about it)?
Thanks,
Jason
Cheers Jason,
Well I know a guy that used to own a bona fide ESB tour suit made by N. J. Farmer but sold it a few years back (for a lot less than this is being offered for). It even has the six buckles in the back of the leather jacket...which is claimed to be an original detail on the auction suit but never was on an original ANH or ESB jacket.
And it looks really just like an ESB mask and helmet. It even has accurate latches on the straps, accurate strap slots, accurate mounting ring, even the screws for the mounting ring are the same as the Paul Allen ESB stunt mask, and all lacking on the auction mask. Plus it has the Farmer label on the inside of the cape and the same neck chain as the other cape that Mr. Zine owns (not this auction one, which isn't original anyway either).
Oh yes...
The helmet (dome) of the auction is ROTJ, not ESB, unlike the Farmer tour helmet I know of. The chestbox is a modified ROTJ on the auction, whereas the Farmer chestbox, although not entirely accurate looks to be modeled after ESB, not ROTJ. As mentioned before, the mounting ring, screws, lenses, straps, strap latches, rear undercut, strap slots, grills, and tusks are not original on the auction mask. But on a Farmer ESB mask, they all are accurate, meaning they are very similar to the parts on the Paul Allen ESB mask. Christie's is mistakenly using the Don Bies ESB helmet (with letter from George Lucas saying it is original) as a reference but that too has a ROTJ dome.
So that is the thing, there isn't anything original about the mask and the helmet itself is ROTJ. Sure they could say it was reworked but then why put a fake "B" on the inside similar to the other helmet Mr. Zine got from Farmer?
The helmet (dome) of the auction is ROTJ, not ESB, unlike the Farmer tour helmet I know of. The chestbox is a modified ROTJ on the auction, whereas the Farmer chestbox, although not entirely accurate looks to be modeled after ESB, not ROTJ. As mentioned before, the mounting ring, screws, lenses, straps, strap latches, rear undercut, strap slots, grills, and tusks are not original on the auction mask. But on a Farmer ESB mask, they all are accurate, meaning they are very similar to the parts on the Paul Allen ESB mask. Christie's is mistakenly using the Don Bies ESB helmet (with letter from George Lucas saying it is original) as a reference but that too has a ROTJ dome.
So that is the thing, there isn't anything original about the mask and the helmet itself is ROTJ. Sure they could say it was reworked but then why put a fake "B" on the inside similar to the other helmet Mr. Zine got from Farmer?
jdebord
Sr Member
So pretend I know nothing at all about these masks and explain to me what is different between the mask and dome (not the other pieces) being offered at auction by Christie's and ESB "tour" masks and domes made post production by N.J. Farmers for ESB (leaving out everything else, including references to ROTJ).
Jason
Jason
ghostryder
Legendary Member
Is the Paul Allen ESB mask original/screen used? Is it on display in Seattle?
ghostryder
Legendary Member
jdebord
Sr Member
I took some photos of it on exhibit as well...
“Out of this World” Original Movie Prop Exhibit at The California Museum – High Resolution Photography
Jason
“Out of this World” Original Movie Prop Exhibit at The California Museum – High Resolution Photography
Jason
Brian Muir
Well-Known Member
Christies are not prepared to listen to anything other than documented proof of ALL helmets made on the production. The implication from Christies is that there could have been a ROTJ dome made on the ESB production which was then used for the ESB Tour helmet.
After showing them comparisons of ESB and ROTJ domes this is the reply :-
In terms of the your comment on screen grabs I have not asked you to show me any or indeed every one, an almost impossible task I would have thought. All I wanted to know is if, in your opinion, every helmet seen in ESB has the straight line you refer to. My mentioning of the irrelevance is based on the fact I am not aware of any information that states that helmets with the filled in join did not exist, either seen on screen or indeed on the production. The fact we are not saying it was a screen used one means that if the only information people can provide to say what a production made ESB helmet should look like is by referring to ones seen on screen then it is slightly irrelevant as it is possible other helmets were on production, but were not used. I have also been of the opinion that as this particular helmet has had known restoration, then the possibility of matching it to a screen grab would be even harder, and dare I say less reliable than usual. Hence I have asked if you have documentation to show the exact make up of all helmets on the production of ESB.
After showing them comparisons of ESB and ROTJ domes this is the reply :-
In terms of the your comment on screen grabs I have not asked you to show me any or indeed every one, an almost impossible task I would have thought. All I wanted to know is if, in your opinion, every helmet seen in ESB has the straight line you refer to. My mentioning of the irrelevance is based on the fact I am not aware of any information that states that helmets with the filled in join did not exist, either seen on screen or indeed on the production. The fact we are not saying it was a screen used one means that if the only information people can provide to say what a production made ESB helmet should look like is by referring to ones seen on screen then it is slightly irrelevant as it is possible other helmets were on production, but were not used. I have also been of the opinion that as this particular helmet has had known restoration, then the possibility of matching it to a screen grab would be even harder, and dare I say less reliable than usual. Hence I have asked if you have documentation to show the exact make up of all helmets on the production of ESB.
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