astroboy
Master Member
You are totally right about the arcs.
All of his companions have had such great character arcs. So much so that when it was their time to leave, it felt right.
New Doctor Who Series Discussion *Spoilers*
- Thread starter silverskyes402
- Start date
All of his companions have had such great character arcs. So much so that when it was their time to leave, it felt right.
Angelus Lupus
Sr Member
RTD was much better at weaving in subtle hints at an overall arc. The mentions of "Bad Wolf" might have made the Doc or Rose raise an eyebrow, but it was always part of the episode's storyline and not tacked on afterwards. Likewise the occasional references to "Mr Saxon" just came up as part of the dialogue ("orders from Mr Saxon..", etc).
Moffat seems far too eager to pat himself on the back with these grand plans and "oooooh, look, I'm foreshadowing! It's mysterious!!" Most of the time his plots take you right out of the adventure you're watching. Madam Kovarian ended up just being an annoyance. "Oh look, here's a thing to interrupt what you're watching.. yes it's this seasons Mysterious Plot Arc!™"
Moffat seems far too eager to pat himself on the back with these grand plans and "oooooh, look, I'm foreshadowing! It's mysterious!!" Most of the time his plots take you right out of the adventure you're watching. Madam Kovarian ended up just being an annoyance. "Oh look, here's a thing to interrupt what you're watching.. yes it's this seasons Mysterious Plot Arc!™"
Solo4114
Master Member
Exactly. It's too on-the-nose about the plot arc. And it's always just a little tease here and there, which results in him having to reveal the whole shebang at once, which usually means it's a hurried mess of a reveal.
That said, I think of all the Moffat-era seasons...I actually liked this one the best in terms of its overall arc. The arc wasn't really the Missy stuff. The arc was about Clara's growth as a character, her relationship with Danny, and how the Doctor played into that -- as well as really exploring who this new Doctor is. And in that regard, I think they did a terrific job. They might've been able to balance individual episodes a bit more or less on the plot vs. character side, but the character side was masterfully done this year, and the finale really felt...well...final about it. It felt like an excellent culmination of the Doctor's considerations of whether he's a good man or a bad man (he's neither -- he's an idiot who does his best to help where he can, high-fallutin' name notwithstanding). It also felt like a really solid exploration of who this "Impossible Girl" is, and how traveling with the Doctor has affected her. She really came to be a "surrogate" Doctor in a way that began to chip at her humanity, and ultimately, in a way, cost her a real shot at love.
In a way, if the tales of Jo, Sara Jane, and Rose (as shown in School Reunion and, I gather, in the Sara Jane Adventures where Jo appeared) offer an example of why traveling with the Doctor is this amazing, wonderful adventure that should be grabbed with both hands, Clara's story really truly highlighted the genuine threat to one's humanity that a chance to travel with the Doctor offers, and what you give up or may miss out on by going with the Doctor. No other season, for example, has shown quite the degree to which leaving friends, family, and loved ones behind can have such a lasting, negative impact on your life. Rose came closest to it, I'd say, but as with Amy (and Rory the afterthought), you always got the sense that while other people might've been bothered by it, she never really minded much, and always viewed it as "worth it." Given how they parted company, I think Clara might have a tough time saying it was all worth it with real conviction, or at least without nagging doubts lurking in the back of her mind. Was it really worth it? What if she'd stayed home and met Danny and just had a nice, happy life with him? And now...she'll never know, because she was splitting herself between Danny and the Doctor.
I loved that aspect to the story, actually. As frustrating as Clara could be (to me), I still appreciated that they showed the cost to her. And I thought the final shot of her just...walking away...really brought that all home. This wasn't a happy ending, or a maudlin departure. It was a recognition that life couldn't go on as it had before, and that Clara now bore the weight of her choices as she walked off to figure out how to put her life together. Maybe she'll turn out ok. I suspect she would, anyway, but it won't be without some real damage and some real "What if...?" questions haunting her.
Agreed, Solo. This is why S8 blows away the Smith years for me. There was weight and consqueuences here. No more "You're pregnant....you're fine next week", "The TARDIS blew up...you're fine next week", "Your boyfriend is an auton...you're fine next week", "your boyfriend dies every week...you're fine next week", "I reset the universe...you're fine next week". There was nothing to grab onto there at all because as lofty as all those things seemed to be, it never felt like there was anything (real) at stake.
I didn't always like Clara in S8 or even in the finale but damn, their relationship was absolutely fascinating to watch evolve. It had/has weight and consequences for both of them. It changed them. I love that. That's what I want from my Who. That moment on the Orient Express where she's going on about the two of them while holding his arm and then he says "can I talk about the stars now?" is one of my all time favorite moments of the show. So real.
Great finale. Best since End of Time....and I thought the falling doctor was a little wink wink nudge nudge to that ridiculous jump in End of Time.
Bring back Missy, and feel free to use the flimsiest of sci fi tropes to do so. She was absolutely outstanding. Those eyes....that's the Master.
I didn't always like Clara in S8 or even in the finale but damn, their relationship was absolutely fascinating to watch evolve. It had/has weight and consequences for both of them. It changed them. I love that. That's what I want from my Who. That moment on the Orient Express where she's going on about the two of them while holding his arm and then he says "can I talk about the stars now?" is one of my all time favorite moments of the show. So real.
Great finale. Best since End of Time....and I thought the falling doctor was a little wink wink nudge nudge to that ridiculous jump in End of Time.
Bring back Missy, and feel free to use the flimsiest of sci fi tropes to do so. She was absolutely outstanding. Those eyes....that's the Master.
Solo4114
Master Member
Well said. I also attribute that stuff to Moffat's penchant for bonkers, over-the-top stuff (e.g. "GODZILLA-SIZED TYRANOSAURUS IN THE THAMES!!!! THAT THEN BURSTS INTO FLAMES!!!!!!"). When you throw stuff like that into the show, just for the over-the-top-ness of it, it ends up weakening the experience as a whole because you can't pay it off without basically killing your season or dramatically shifting it. So, everything gets a reset-button, and the big moments end up just being big visuals with no real impact.
I think this season, the balance was much better with the Doctor and the companion's development as characters. If anything, I'd say that the season erred more on the side of too much focus on their relationship and their personalities, than on the actual stories. The stories were usually merely vehicles for their personalities to develop. I suppose in some respect, though, the stories were still a bit too "big." Like, blowing up the moon, a forest taking over London, a monster loose in the school that could destroy the whole planet, blah blah blah. I think this is why Mummy on the Orient Express and Flatline were such awesome episodes. The "monsters" in them were far smaller in scale. The stakes were more grounded ("We could all die" rather than "They could DESTROY ALL OF REALITY ZOMG!!!111!!!!one!!!!"), which allowed the drama and character development to resonate more naturally.
Amen. Even in the more bonkers episodes, you could see the impact of the events on Clara, and on the Doctor, too, in terms of realizing that Clara wasn't...exactly handling things the way he wanted her to every time, and also acting as a mirror for him, forcing him to consider how he handles things.
Agreed. And, frankly, I expect she'll be back. Her "disintegration" looked suspiciously like teleportation.
Also, I LOVED that she just flat-out lied about Gallifrey (or did she...?), and the Doctor's anger at himself and her in the wake of that. Anger at believing her, anger at having given himself a moment of hope, anger at her for manipulating him, and it all just boils over. Terrific scene, especially set against Clara and his lying goodbyes.
timelordjedi777
Sr Member
It's getting to be, let's bring back the Master so we can kill him again. Let's bring back the cybermen and kill them. Let's bring back the daleks and kill them.
And hasn't the sky burning been done already. And on a side note if Missy had been Susan. Mind blow.
And hasn't the sky burning been done already. And on a side note if Missy had been Susan. Mind blow.
Solo4114
Master Member
Well, technically, that's always been the case. No matter how far back you go, the Doctor defeats some enemy, and then they come back later. The big difference is that there was always the expectation that they'd come back, because there was never the suggestion that this was (a) the only group of this kind of enemy out there, or (b) that they'd finally been completely defeated.
With enemies like the various enemy races (Daleks, Cybermen, Ice Warriors, Zygons, Autons, Silurians, etc.) the implication has always been that there's more out there. It's only in the new series that anyone introduced the concept that the Daleks were all destroyed, and given that the Time Lords survived the Time War...it stands to reason that this at least partially explains why the Daleks did, too. Everyone else has always just kinda been around, as expected. You never really think "Well that's it. They've got the last of them."
And the "comic book death" applied to the Master has always been done that way. Anthony Ainley's Master appeared to die multiple times, but he always popped up again. Even in the final serial of the original show, he seems to die at the end of "Survival," only to reappear (sort of) in the 1996 movie, where he's again defeated and apparently destroyed.
And like I said, I doubt very much that Missy died here. I think she teleported away at the last second and went "Aargh" to make it look like she died when Earth's greatest soldier EVER shot at her with a Cyberman beam. Watch the teleport effect in the plane, and the compare it to the disintegration effect when the Cyber-beam "hits" her. Looks the same to me.
The Master has been:
- Incinerated at least twice (once off-screen)
- locked in a TARDIS with a rapidly aging t-rex
- turned into some kind of cheetah person
- disintegrated by Daleks
- thrown into the Eye of Harmony
- shot to death twice
- and sent to a pocket universe with the rest of Gallifrey.
and that's all we really "know" about.
Looks like a teleport to me (both her hands are behind gravestones)
- Incinerated at least twice (once off-screen)
- locked in a TARDIS with a rapidly aging t-rex
- turned into some kind of cheetah person
- disintegrated by Daleks
- thrown into the Eye of Harmony
- shot to death twice
- and sent to a pocket universe with the rest of Gallifrey.
and that's all we really "know" about.
Looks like a teleport to me (both her hands are behind gravestones)
Fett 4 Real
Sr Member
Yeh I'm thinking teleport also it was blue light not red...there was no pile of dust shot...and its the master...they can't kill the character off...
timelordjedi777
Sr Member
You got that right.
I hate the stupid "impossible situation solved in 2 mins of dialogue" thing but otherwise this is just about the best result we could expect from the Missy arc I think. I was dreading the reveal and it wasn't that bad.
CB2001
Master Member
Not sure if this has been shared here already, but Yahoo!News has this up on their feed: http://www.inquisitr.com/1610921/doctor-who-rumor-roundup-could-the-doctor-get-cancelled/
Fett 4 Real
Sr Member
That would be terrible...I really enjoyed #13.
The writing needs to improve. This season wasn't great, but Capaldi stole the show. Your lead actor can only do so much though, I think it's time for Moffat to pass the torch to be honest...
But no, it won't be cancelled in the near future. There's still a HUGE fan base out there. If anything you'll see a slow decline like Doctor Who in the 80's.
But no, it won't be cancelled in the near future. There's still a HUGE fan base out there. If anything you'll see a slow decline like Doctor Who in the 80's.
Solo4114
Master Member
Yeah, the show will continue. It's a massive merchandising force, and it also serves as a lead for BBC to funnel other shows to the states. Get folks hooked on one show, and they'll stick around for other shows. So, while the numbers might've fluctuated, if the writing improves, I think the show will be fine.
I thought this season had weaknesses, but it also had surprising strengths that haven't been there for a while. I agree, though, that Moffat's tenure maybe should be coming to an end before it gets undignified.
I thought this season had weaknesses, but it also had surprising strengths that haven't been there for a while. I agree, though, that Moffat's tenure maybe should be coming to an end before it gets undignified.
Dessa
Sr Member
I read the full interview with Moffatt, and besides him pointing out that a lot of people are using time-delay and non-traditional broadcast methods (which lower the ratings), he confirmed that yes, the ratings are lower for the S8 premiere than they were for earlier seasons... but they're still far above what is considered a "hit" show.
Season 9 has already been confirmed. Capaldi will be back. 
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