My New Boba Fett Helmet Casting - New Article and Photos 10/04

[BOBA PHAT]

thumbsup Truer words could not be spoken. We should always be looking to the originals as our ultimate goal.

That's what I've tried to do. I've admired and been inspired by what others have done, but if it's not from ILM it's not reference to me.

Can the theory you have posed of a plaster mold answer why there are cut marks in the PP2, and a seam line on both the KT and GM that appears to have already been corrected and molded into both the KT plug and the GM helmet? While I obviously don't know for sure (I wasn't there) I feel like the evidence strongly points to there HAVING to be another unseen plug that came before the GM and KT.

I think you misread me. I do not think that there was a plaster mold. Not only is plaster mold making basically a lost art, the seam lines in the KT plug would be very different. Also I'm just taking in consideration the known facts: a missing PP2 helmet that turns up with cut marks; the KT plug and its condition; and the GM cast and its condition. All the other information is basically hearsay and should be taken with a grain of salt.

Obviously a mold was made of the PP2. Unfortunately, a low quality mold with a bad cut seam. The 2nd seam on both helmets says that a 2nd mold was made, so whoever was casting these helmets did not have access to the original mold. So a master cast would have been pulled from the original mold for the purposes of remolding. Was that master the KT plug, or another unseen plug? My point is that if another unseen master cast was made, why make another master cast in the KT plug? Either theory is equally valid. It's all a matter of which mold did these casters have access to. If you have the original mold, then you'd make casts from that. If you're looking to make your own casts, but don't have the original mold, then you pull a master for remolding. My theory assumes these casts were made by a second set of casters that did not have open access to the original mold. Your's assumes these casts are being pulled my a third set of hands that did not have the 2nd gen mold. Who knows.

Again, I wasn't there, so I can't answer that definitively, but my assumption would be to correct the horror of a seam line that was created demolding the PP2. Given that the GM and KT have the corrected seam and given the nature of the way that corrected seam looks, it doesn't look like it was corrected in the mold, but on a positive, which would indicate another master.

The corrected seam on the KT might be the actual repair and not a cast of the repair. When I look at the back of the KT plug, I see no flashing at all on the second seam. Just a deep cut, even below the helmet on the ring on the bottom. The first seam is "repaired" on the helmet, but there is flashing on the bottom ring. This leads me to believe that 1st seam is actually a repair on the KT, and the 2nd seam is the cut mark of removing the mold of the KT plug.

Given that we know the first seam line came from cutting the PP2 from the mold (as the cuts and the seam line up) and given that Ken has repeatedly told us how he forced the KT from the mold to the point that he damaged the mold (to the point that he thought it was unusable), I think it is a far stretch to postulate that the 2ndary damage in the back of the KT is the cut seam from a mold taken of the KT.

If a rigid mold was made, then I could see casts locking in the mold. But despite all the hearsay, I think we can all agree that both the original and 2nd gen molds were flexible. Given that the mold making material is unknown, a cast could adhere to the mold if a barrier release was not properly applied, or if there was a bad reaction with the casting material. Both of those scenarios would leave damage that is inconsistent with the two casts we see. The kind of damage where a casting sticks to its mold would pull small pieces of the mold out. So bits of the mold would have to be cut off the cast, which I don't see evidence of, and the mold would have negative pits which would result in positive nibs on subsequent cast, which I also don't see on the GM or the KT.

The way that casts made into flexible molds "lock up" has more to do with the mother mold than the flexible mold. If the cut seam doesn't seal properly, and the mother mold is not greased, casting material could seep in between the mold and the jacket and lock the casting to the mother mold. A cast cut seam usually produces a thin flashing, which I don't see on the KT nor do I see any evidence of removing that flashing. You can see this type of flashing on the GM cast where the cut seam was not taped on the dome. The GM cast also shows heavy mold use by the time this cast was pulled. It appears that after many pulls, a lot of material seeped through the cut seam and built up on the jacket. This build up caused the dip around the 2nd cut seam and did not allow the cut seam to close properly, necessitating taping the seam.

There IS a way that might prove my theory incorrect and what you are suggesting to be a possibility. If the KT were stripped of its bronze patina and it was conclusively shown that the corrected seam line was physically correct ON the KT and not molded IN to the KT as I believe it is, then that would indicate the KT was first generation and that the GM was a 2nd generation casting from the KT.

That could prove either one theory or another, but we both know that's not going to happen. And if the repairs on the plaster KT were made with more plaster, they might be indistinguishable. If the repairs were done with plaster, that might explain the poor quality of the repair. Wet plaster patches on dried plaster set very fast due to the porous nature of plaster, so there is almost zero work time to fair out the patch. Plaster patches can be tooled, but must be done with files or rough grit sandpaper (like the scratches on the back of the helmet casts).

Again, either case could be true. If the KT and GM were both cast from the same mold, or if the GM is a cast made from a mold of the KT, they are going to be extremely similar. Obviously by the time the GM was cast, there was a lot of material build up on the jacket, causing the problem areas on the seam and the dent on top of the dome. I also think a lot of the surface issues stem from the gel coat used. If it doesn't have enough body to it, it will start to pull away from the mold as it cures before the gel coat is backed with glass and resin. I've had this happen to me before, and it's very weird and very frustrating. Due to such problems, I never use off the shelf gel coat and always make my own.

This one little air bubble on the right ear is a bit of a tell. It doesn't prove one theory over another, but is the result of a plaster cast. That is a prime spot for trapping air while the mold is inverted for plaster casting. A trapped air bubble while molding would most likely appear underneath the ear piece ridge. Now this air bubble could be the result of casting the plaster KT plug from the original mold, or from recasting this 1st gen phantom plaster plug that had this same air bubble. Either way, the GM is a cast that is closely related to the PP2. I just wish all the molding and casting weren't so sloppy!

-Ryan

 

[Art Andrews]

Ryan, I am glad to see we agree on more than I initially thought. I am fully with you that much of this is and always will be theory because there is simply no way to definitively prove it. For me, I don't think things can quite be as either/or as you describe them, but that doesn't mean every conclusion I have come to is undeniable fact either.

Obviously a mold was made of the PP2. Unfortunately, a low quality mold with a bad cut seam. The 2nd seam on both helmets says that a 2nd mold was made, so whoever was casting these helmets did not have access to the original mold.

I am not sure that I agree that it is a forgone conclusion that the 2nd mold necessitates a lack of access to the original mold. However, whether that is true or not, doesn't necessary change the rest of the discussion. While I am with you on the bad cut seams on the first mold, I am not sure I totally agree that the 1st mold had to be of low quality. The crux of our issue is that you believe the KT came from the first mold and the GM came from a mold after that, while I tend to think both the KT and GM came from a 2nd mold, primarily due to the seam correction which I believe is molded in to the KT and not applied to it. This is the sticking point and one that is likely to never be resolved for reasons you posted above. Given the issue inherent in the KT plug, IF it were from the original mold, then you would be right, the first mold must have been of low quality. In my scenario, it could have been either the first or the 2nd gen mold that was of low quality but I would agree with you that whichever the KT came from (because I think we are all in agreement that the KT was cast BEFORE the GM) was a less than stellar mold and those issues which are present in the KT are also present (along with a few others) in the GM, and some have passed all the way down to the DP.

So a master cast would have been pulled from the original mold for the purposes of remolding. Was that master the KT plug, or another unseen plug? My point is that if another unseen master cast was made, why make another master cast in the KT plug?

I'll answer your question with a question of my own, one which I have no answer for. Lets look at both theories for a second. While we might debate whether the KT was repaired directly (your theory) or whether there was an unseen master that was repaired (my theory), there is no argument that a 2nd mold was made and at the very least the GM came from that mold. Whichever way you believe it to be, why was such a minimal effort put into correcting the seam on the back of the master before remolding? I don't have an answer for this and whether you believe the master was the KT or an unforeseen master, this doesn't make a lot of sense to me. They took the time to do some repair, but the effort was absolutely minimal at best and left a damaged area that is so apparent that a million generations later, we still see tells of it in the DP helmets. If you are going to repair a seam, why not do it right the first time? This is not a point of contention about the history or lineage but one of curiosity for me and one that I don't have and probably never will have an answer for.

My theory assumes these casts were made by a second set of casters that did not have open access to the original mold. Your's assumes these casts are being pulled my a third set of hands that did not have the 2nd gen mold.

You completely lost me there. While Ken has been wrong on a few details, his claim has always been that Steve cast the original PP2 helmet and that he, Ken, came in while the KT was in the mold. This means he doesn't actually know if the mold the KT came from was the original or a 2nd mold. He has always maintained that the KT was locked in the mold and he had to forcibly remove it. As you pointed out, we all seem to be in agreement that at least some part of the mold(s) had to be flexible based on the shape of the Fett helmets and the seam lines we see on the KT and GM. If the KT was in the original mold, there would already be a MASSIVE seam from the dome all the way down the back of the helmet that should (in theory) have made it pretty easy to remove it no matter what, even if had been temporarily repaired or held together. If your theory is true and the 2nd line of damage on the KT is from some later date when you believe a mold was taken of the KT (something Ken has always maintained has never happened) then that essentially negates Ken's entire story and we have virtually nothing to go on at all. I think it is much more plausible that the 2nd line of damage on the KT came just as Ken said, when he pried it from the mold, and I believe if the KT had come directly from the original mold, Ken wouldn't have had to do that. Again, I can't prove it, but to me, that makes more logical sense.

You say that my theory involves a third party that didn't have access to the 2nd gen molds... I am not sure where you are getting that from. My theory is that the PP2 was cast and the mold was cut off of it by Steve P or an assistant. Steve P or the assistant made a master and "corrected" the seamline from the ragged mess they made cutting the mold off the PP2. Steve P or an assistant made a 2nd mold from the master with the "corrected" seamline and filled the mold with UltraCal. Ken comes in and pries the Ultracal plug out of the mold, damaging the mold and scoring the plug. Someone (don't have a clue who or when) tapes up the 2nd mold and casts the GM (and possibly other helmets). Was it Ken? Was it Steve? Was it a third party? I don't know, but my theory is that whoever cast the GM absolutely DID have access to the 2nd gen mold that the KT had already been pulled from.

I just wish all the molding and casting weren't so sloppy!

Once again, we are in total agreement. I guess I am just happy that an original helmet was cast at all, but I too lament that a better job wasn't done in casting it, and probably above all else, I hate the fact that they actually damaged the original helmet while casting it. (

 

[BOBA PHAT]

Whichever way you believe it to be, why was such a minimal effort put into correcting the seam on the back of the master before remolding? If you are going to repair a seam, why not do it right the first time?

That's a good question. I hate sloppy work, and that repair is pretty damn sloppy. Even a plaster patch on a plaster cast can be seamlessly repaired. It just wasn't.

If the KT was in the original mold, there would already be a MASSIVE seam from the dome all the way down the back of the helmet that should (in theory) have made it pretty easy to remove it no matter what, even if had been temporarily repaired or held together.

True, if the plaster cast did not lock to the mother mold (possibly also made of plaster). Also I'm not following you on how one flexible mold is easy to remove, while another can get stuck. But that's neither here nor there. We have different opinions on this, and neither is more valid than the other. Just different.

I think it is much more plausible that the 2nd line of damage on the KT came just as Ken said, when he pried it from the mold, and I believe if the KT had come directly from the original mold, Ken wouldn't have had to do that. Again, I can't prove it, but to me, that makes more logical sense.

I will have to strongly disagree that the 2nd line of damage is from prying it from whichever mold it came from. That line is from a mold cut seam. Either cast in or cut in. If it was prying damage, how is it a fairly straight line? And if it is damage to the mold and not a cut seam, then where is this other cut seam? If the 1st seam is a repair, and the 2nd seam is demolding damage, then was this a sock mold with no cut seam? I'm not looking for your answers, just trying to explain how I'm seeing this.

I love talking about Fett, and I love talking about molds! Thanks for a good thread with a civil attitude!

-Ryan

 

[Art Andrews]

I will have to strongly disagree that the 2nd line of damage is from prying it from whichever mold it came from. That line is from a mold cut seam. Either cast in or cut in. If it was prying damage, how is it a fairly straight line? And if it is damage to the mold and not a cut seam, then where is this other cut seam? If the 1st seam is a repair, and the 2nd seam is demolding damage, then was this a sock mold with no cut seam? I'm not looking for your answers, just trying to explain how I'm seeing this.

I love talking about Fett, and I love talking about molds! Thanks for a good thread with a civil attitude!

Regarding the second line, we have to go back to Ken (and as you pointed out, it is strictly hearsay, but according to him, he was there and he was the one who demolded the KT). Ken said he took a small pry bar and jammed it straight down into the back of the mold/casting. Given that we don't fully understand how the helmet was molded, I am not entirely sure what that would achieve. I am only relaying the info. I can easily see if something like a screwdriver were jammed down into the mold creating a score mark as we see. I can also see where you are coming from with it being a cut line, although that would virtually negate Ken's story of the events.

Again, since we don't really know how the helmets were molded or what jackets were used it is tough to say what was needed to ge the helmets out of the mold, but I find it tough to believe that from you are saying the first time around, a cut was made from the top of the dome to the back of the helmet, to get the somewhat flexible fiberglass PP2 out of the mold, but the second time around, only a few inches of were needed to get the mold off the KT. I still think the scoring and the damage to the 2nd mold was and unintentional byproduct of Ken forcing the mother mold to open, but I don't think your view is totally without merit or implausible. In fact, if you are correct, and both molds were glove molds with a rigid mother mold, I could see an argument for making a larger cut on the PP2 mold in order to keep from damaging it while a less intrusive cut would be needed to release the mold from the more rigid KT plug.... but again that would totally discount Ken's story.

This is fascinating stuff for me as well and I love looking into the history of these things and the possibility and considering the "dull subterfuge of conflicting viewpoints" involved, I am pretty thrilled to see how civil this is going as well.

 

[Alkerseltzer]

I am insanely jealous

 

[SingleSeat]

...Thanks for a good thread with a civil attitude! -Ryan

...I am pretty thrilled to see how civil this is going as well.

True. If this were a discussion on the restoration, I get the feeling it would be different. The only bottom line I can see is that Art is happy with his purchase (the subject of this thread) or what can come of it. I like the topic as it is and it's enjoyable whenever folks put their thinking caps on :cheers. Maybe someone could rope Ken into the discussion on what happened so long ago and freshen the story.

 

[BOBA PHAT]

Maybe someone could rope Ken into the discussion on what happened so long ago and freshen the story.

Does anyone know when some of these molds or casts were made? Doesn't really affect the discussion, but I am curious when all this stuff happened. 1980's? 1990's?

-Ryan

 

[KaanE]

It should be in the 80's. Why? Because the helmet disappeared before the filming started.

 

[Art Andrews]

Does anyone know when some of these molds or casts were made? Doesn't really affect the discussion, but I am curious when all this stuff happened. 1980's? 1990's?

-Ryan

Early 1980's from my understanding, but exactly when, I don't know.

 

[SingleSeat]

From my limited understanding, it was before the suit was ever stolen and during a time when many items underwent casting for reasons of all kinds. That is the only reason why I'm hesitant to believe that a covert operation was at work on Lee's buck. The value of these items was virtually non-existent at one point and a second thought wasn't given to recast a prop to fit an emergent need in many cases. I hope someone will correct me if I am wrong.

 

[n0x23]

Art, thank you for the great photos and article(s), and for showing compassion to those of us who do not know how to decipher the typical onslaught of abbreviations and acronyms.

Even though I wouldn't consider Fett one of my favorite characters, I do love all things OT, especially the "making of" and behind the scenes stuff, so it's really cool to get a chance to learn more about these buckets and their lineage.

Again, thanks for taking time to share all this great information. :thumbsup


.

 

[moffeaton]

Just saw this thread - congrats Art!! I can't think of a person more deserving of owning this!

 

[Art Andrews]

Art, thank you for the great photos and article(s), and for showing compassion to those of us who do not know how to decipher the typical onslaught of abbreviations and acronyms.

Again, thanks for taking time to share all this great information. :thumbsup

My pleasure. Always fun to share theories and to explore how we believe things came to be. Some interesting alternative ideas have been posted in this thread which make it all the more fun to go back and look again and do even more comparisons and to imagine more "what if" scenarios. As will always be the case, the search and the research continues! I am just thrilled to be able to share this and to have so many share my excitement and enthusiasm and I hope this helps take a lot of people one small step closer to a great Fett costume or display!

 

[voice in the crowd]

Oh no!!

Not another prop that makes my stomach turn to knots whilst lusting after a copy :lol

Oh and nice articles.

Congratulations on a great addition to your collection :thumbsup

Cheers Chris

 

[BOBA PHAT]

Like anything else in this hobby, tests are a must! So I took a scrap plaster casting and started to see what kind of tool made what kind of mark. Now this won't tell us why these marks were made. Whether cutting off a mold, or prying a stuck mold, that's still all a matter of opinion. But after making marks with a blade, both sides of a Phillips screwdriver, and a chisel I feel very confident that the 2nd seam on the KT plug was made with a blade. It looks just like the 2nd seam to me.

-Ryan

 

[Forsaken]

I just now read this thread, Thank you Art, for posting this information. And it is truly refreshing seeing a discussion on this board with differing opinions, that had not turned into a pissing match.

To BOBBA PHAT, NCIS’s Abby would be proud of you Forensic abilities.

Al

 

[SpideyFett]

Like anything else in this hobby, tests are a must! So I took a scrap plaster casting and started to see what kind of tool made what kind of mark. Now this won't tell us why these marks were made. Whether cutting off a mold, or prying a stuck mold, that's still all a matter of opinion. But after making marks with a blade, both sides of a Phillips screwdriver, and a chisel I feel very confident that the 2nd seam on the KT plug was made with a blade. It looks just like the 2nd seam to me.

-Ryan

nice.. good stuff Ryan.:thumbsup

 

[ArtisanProps]

Congrats Art

Having a piece like this has got to make you feel great.. I'm gonna make a
prediction that you'll be staring at it for hours on end when you get it.. You
might even miss a few meals as a result

 

[Star Wars Helmets]

Just got round to reading this

WOW - this is IMMENSE!!

Great work with the analysis and review article Art - it looks to me like youve picked yourself up a fantastic piece of Star Wars history - and I know how much that means to you.

Well done - I'm sold! thumbsup:thumbsup

Cheers

Jez

 

[JoeR]

Awesome piece Art. This is a crazy year for OT SW fans. :thumbsup