Marvel Studios' Shang-Chi and the Legend of the Ten Rings

[signeddiamond]

Generally speaking I liked it In its own isolated sphere but it really didn’t feel like a Marvel film at all as it lacked the kind of ties that keep this feeling like a shared universe.

The grand stakes seemed very low. 3 dozen people in a pocket dimension will get eaten by a big monster who maybe can come to the main world. Katy seems to get a lot of praise but fell into a bit of a Mary Sue role right at the end. I guess all the archers who trained for their entire lives to handle this situation couldn’t match her afternoon of messing around with a bow.

As I mentioned, on its own if was a lot of fun but I think Marvel is doing to much in phase 4. Right now we have Multiple timelines, multiple realities and dimensions, time police, literal witches, political fallout from the snap, a brand new Vision, Eternal beings along with deviants, dragons, demons, Skrulls, and another secret hidden civilization.
Any one of those can be an entire phase but I think it’s going to be very difficult to tie this all together in a cohesive way.

 

[joberg]

Generally speaking I liked it In its own isolated sphere but it really didn’t feel like a Marvel film at all as it lacked the kind of ties that keep this feeling like a shared universe.

The grand stakes seemed very low. 3 dozen people in a pocket dimension will get eaten by a big monster who maybe can come to the main world. Katy seems to get a lot of praise but fell into a bit of a Mary Sue role right at the end. I guess all the archers who trained for their entire lives to handle this situation couldn’t match her afternoon of messing around with a bow.

As I mentioned, on its own if was a lot of fun but I think Marvel is doing to much in phase 4. Right now we have Multiple timelines, multiple realities and dimensions, time police, literal witches, political fallout from the snap, a brand new Vision, Eternal beings along with deviants, dragons, demons, Skrulls, and another secret hidden civilization.
Any one of those can be an entire phase but I think it’s going to be very difficult to tie this all together in a cohesive way.

Maybe they don't want to tie it up into a neat bow

 

[signeddiamond]

Maybe they don't want to tie it up into a neat bow

Well maybe that works for fans but it’s a bit much for the general person who catches a couple films a year to understand all these different concepts all flying in different directions. If the plan is to end up a sprawled in a dozen different ways then it seems much more likely to fall apart.

 

[Paul Andrew]

Well maybe that works for fans but it’s a bit much for the general person who catches a couple films a year to understand all these different concepts all flying in different directions. If the plan is to end up a sprawled in a dozen different ways then it seems much more likely to fall apart.

They've been doing it to varying degrees of success for decades in the comics. Every so often you get a crossover that spans the whole line, sometimes the notes are good enough that you don't have to buy each issue to get it all, sometimes they're not, sometimes the individual stories are good enough that you don't mind missing Avengers #764 when X-Men #943 rocks it.

 

[joberg]

Well maybe that works for fans but it’s a bit much for the general person who catches a couple films a year to understand all these different concepts all flying in different directions. If the plan is to end up a sprawled in a dozen different ways then it seems much more likely to fall apart.

True that, if you need a manual to understand where you're at...then it might be a problem

 

[renaissance_man]

Well maybe that works for fans but it’s a bit much for the general person who catches a couple films a year to understand all these different concepts all flying in different directions. If the plan is to end up a sprawled in a dozen different ways then it seems much more likely to fall apart.

I think after 23 or 24 films, anyone who doesn't know that Marvel are always expanding their universe has been living under a rock.
There wasn't anything in Shang Chi that didn't stand on its own and went unexplained. You got the arc of Shang Chi's relationship with his father, mother and sister. He accpeted his father's legacy but stood for his own values and defended Sha Lo from an interndimensional alien. Granted the midcredits scene teased the greater legacy of the rings as objects of great power but if you aren't a Marvel fan and don't appreciate that then you can always take the film at face value and ignore that scene it isnt totally integral to the main story.

It seems people always want to moan about Marvel in some form or another.
As a creative group, I really appreciate the fact that they reward patience and loyalty with their mid and end credits scenes and expanding character and story arcs across multuiple films. Not everything needs to be wrapped up in a neat bow at the end of every film.

 

[Riceball]

I think after 23 or 24 films, anyone who doesn't know that Marvel are always expanding their universe has been living under a rock.
There wasn't anything in Shang Chi that didn't stand on its own and went unexplained. You got the arc of Shang Chi's relationship with his father, mother and sister. He accpeted his father's legacy but stood for his own values and defended Sha Lo from an interndimensional alien. Granted the midcredits scene teased the greater legacy of the rings as objects of great power but if you aren't a Marvel fan and don't appreciate that then you can always take the film at face value and ignore that scene it isnt totally integral to the main story.

It seems people always want to moan about Marvel in some form or another.
As a creative group, I really appreciate the fact that they reward patience and loyalty with their mid and end credits scenes and expanding character and story arcs across multuiple films. Not everything needs to be wrapped up in a neat bow at the end of every film.

I agree, people seem to fail to understand that Shang Chi is not some stand alone film that happens to be from Marvel/Disney, while it can work as a stand alone film. it's really meant to be the first in a series of Shang Chi films and the beginning of the MCU'ss Phase 4. It's like the first(?) Hulk movie or maybe the first Iron Man movie is a better example, it's laying the groundwork for something much bigger than just Shang Chi. In this case, it's laying the groundwork for the next iteration of the Avengers. This is what all of the MCU movies have always done and will continue to do, I don't know why people expect anything different from Shang Chi.

 

[signeddiamond]

I agree, people seem to fail to understand that Shang Chi is not some stand alone film that happens to be from Marvel/Disney, while it can work as a stand alone film. it's really meant to be the first in a series of Shang Chi films and the beginning of the MCU'ss Phase 4. It's like the first(?) Hulk movie or maybe the first Iron Man movie is a better example, it's laying the groundwork for something much bigger than just Shang Chi. In this case, it's laying the groundwork for the next iteration of the Avengers. This is what all of the MCU movies have always done and will continue to do, I don't know why people expect anything different from Shang Chi.

Well it seems pretty clear my opinion is relatively unpopular. I suppose I just consider comic books and films to be 2 different storytelling mediums and don't exactly put the same assumptions of audience participation on each of them.

Marvel Films have been remarkably slow building up until this point. Pretty much every enhanced human has some tie to the original super soldier serum. If you have powers they generally come from an infinity stone of some sort. The universe contains aliens that have a general hierarchy with Asgard being some of the most powerful and long lived.
With very few exceptions everything pretty much falls into that and to me that is what makes the MCU so compelling. It builds on itself rather then just tacking on an entirely new concept each time. The best of Marvels outings have worked as stand alone films that reward a knowledge of the universe they live in. Shang Chi while a good stand alone film (something I have never argued against) fails to utilize the universe that it lives in. Good worldbuilding and storytelling involves setup and payoff. Stark displays B.A.R.F. at a speaking gig becomes B.A.R.F. evolving into a tool used by a villan. The scarcity of a rare ore and the lengths alluded to get it lead into the revelation of Wakanda. Shang Chi just says "There are some rings now, a eons old conqueror, real dragons, a secret civilization behind a magic bamboo forest, and all sorts of mystical creatures and demons".

Alone this would be an understandable if not a bit excessive leap in the MCU which is why I understand where you all are coming from when you say its a start of something new. However, when coupled with all the other "Brand new" directions the other areas of marvel are moving in I find it to be a risky maneuver and runs the risk of falling apart. Consider the Star Wars expanded universe. While there was good content in there for sure it was also full of inconsistencies. The firm guiding hand can only juggle so many objects farther and farther apart before the balls begin to fall. Already the Eternals are facing scrutiny for sitting by as Thanos snapped his fingers and it will become harder and harder to brush these things away as "oh well they swore an oath they wouldn't" or "Well that plot hole just was part of Kangs plan I guess".

I have enjoyed every bit of the MCU so far but from my vantage point I see troubled waters ahead.

 

[ScourgiousJinx]

Well it seems pretty clear my opinion is relatively unpopular.

Just because an opinion is unpopular doesn't mean it's wrong.

 

[Argonaut]

Well it seems pretty clear my opinion is relatively unpopular. I suppose I just consider comic books and films to be 2 different storytelling mediums and don't exactly put the same assumptions of audience participation on each of them.

Marvel Films have been remarkably slow building up until this point. Pretty much every enhanced human has some tie to the original super soldier serum. If you have powers they generally come from an infinity stone of some sort. The universe contains aliens that have a general hierarchy with Asgard being some of the most powerful and long lived.
With very few exceptions everything pretty much falls into that and to me that is what makes the MCU so compelling. It builds on itself rather then just tacking on an entirely new concept each time. The best of Marvels outings have worked as stand alone films that reward a knowledge of the universe they live in. Shang Chi while a good stand alone film (something I have never argued against) fails to utilize the universe that it lives in. Good worldbuilding and storytelling involves setup and payoff. Stark displays B.A.R.F. at a speaking gig becomes B.A.R.F. evolving into a tool used by a villan. The scarcity of a rare ore and the lengths alluded to get it lead into the revelation of Wakanda. Shang Chi just says "There are some rings now, a eons old conqueror, real dragons, a secret civilization behind a magic bamboo forest, and all sorts of mystical creatures and demons".

Alone this would be an understandable if not a bit excessive leap in the MCU which is why I understand where you all are coming from when you say its a start of something new. However, when coupled with all the other "Brand new" directions the other areas of marvel are moving in I find it to be a risky maneuver and runs the risk of falling apart. Consider the Star Wars expanded universe. While there was good content in there for sure it was also full of inconsistencies. The firm guiding hand can only juggle so many objects farther and farther apart before the balls begin to fall. Already the Eternals are facing scrutiny for sitting by as Thanos snapped his fingers and it will become harder and harder to brush these things away as "oh well they swore an oath they wouldn't" or "Well that plot hole just was part of Kangs plan I guess".

I have enjoyed every bit of the MCU so far but from my vantage point I see troubled waters ahead.

Just want to point out that the Ten Rings was literally the first villainous organization in the MCU. They kidnapped Tony Stark in Afghanistan, which directly resulted in him creating the Iron Man armor. We also had Trevor Slattery's take on the Mandarin in Iron Man 3. Both of these setups from 13 and 8 years ago respectively had payoffs in Shang-Chi. (Even then, it was executed in a way that the general audience doesn't need this information to grasp this movie as a standalone.)

And the Eternals "Thanos plothole" was explicitly addressed in the final trailer. The Eternals, under order from the Celestials, are not allowed to interfere in any catastrophe unless Deviants are involved. I don't know what more explanation is required than this?

The MCU is special BECAUSE it applies comicbook storytelling to film. It was and is revolutionary and though every studio wants to try to build their own cinematic universe, it never works. People have been forecasting superhero fatigue for the past 15 years and people like to predict the downfall of Marvel after every film/phase/etc. The MCU has an astonishing track record. They've got it down and they're not going anywhere. Now moreso than ever, Marvel has been introducing new genres and concepts to keep it fresh and all the talent and filmmakers point out how collaborative it is at Marvel Studios. And by bringing new, diverse and unique directors/filmmakers into the fold, the MCU really doesn't seem to be slowing down anytime soon. If you don't enjoy MCU films that's okay, but I'm not sure what your vantage point is that you can see troubled waters from because, I mean, have you seen Chloe Zhao's Nomadland? It's incredible. That's about as far from MCU as you can get, yet they tapped her to direct the Eternals? As long as Marvel continues to innovate and expand and give creative freedom to voices like Chloe Zhao, Destin Daniel Cretton, Taika Waititi, etc. etc. audiences will keep coming back.

 

[signeddiamond]

Yes I have seen Ironman once or twice believe it or not and the fact that "The Ten Rings" was briefly mentioned in relation to a middle east terrorist group 13 years ago is not news to me. If I grabbed 100 random people off the street and asked them "Who took Tony Stark hostage?", how many do you think would recall this 3 word bit of exposition? That coupled with the fact that the Ten Rings banner in the hostage video isn't even the same as the one the Ten Rings actually uses makes me feel like this bit of setup is pretty flimsy.

When it comes to Trevors take on the Mandarin this also seems like pretty shallow (but very slightly more substantial) setup. A made up character meant to cover for another man who is also appropriating the title of this fictional character based on someone that is only proven real in the oh so popular Thor: The Dark World Blu-ray extra... Even in Shang Chi the relation is mocked for its flimsy attempt at association.

When it comes to The Eternals I think you will find that I said that. They essentially promised they wouldn't to the Celestials. That is indeed an explanation but its a very poor one. Discounting that traditionally in the comics Thanos does posses Deviant genes it would be the equivalent of saying "Why didn't Thor step in during Civil War?", "Oh his dad said no". Marvel has written better in the past and I hope that they have a more fleshed out explanation in the film. Even throwing in the concept that their powers are drastically weakened when they are separated and the snap removed a majority of them would explain their absence as well as fold neatly into the established universe.

I think I understand what little bit of this you are missing here. "If you don't enjoy MCU films that's ok". Not only have I never said that but I have actively said the exact opposite. I feel that your mistaken belief that I do not enjoy the MCU has colored your view of my perspective to one that does not understand or appreciate what is happening. As if to doubt something implies ignorance or apathy. "Have you seen this have you seen that", means nothing. Peyton Reed directed nothing impressive before helming 3 Antman films and James Gunn directed two low budget black comedies before getting GotG. Pedigree means very little when it comes to quality. I don't doubt that Chloe Zhao will make a beautiful spectacle of a film with rich worldbuilding and I'm not sure what that in isolation has anything to do with the bigger picture. I'm glad to hear why you think these films are special. In a lot of ways I'm sure we see eye to eye and nobody would be happier to be see their worries dissipated then me but I just haven't seen my actual worries addressed other then having the faith that what has worked will always work.

 

[ScourgiousJinx]

Criticism of an aspect of something or questioning it at all on any level immediately means that you must entirely hate it lol.

 

[Malibu139]

Saw it today, my son and wife loved it. I liked it but felt it was a few minutes too long . The extended set up in the beginning explaining the rings and his dads journey combined with the drawn out final cgi battle made it drag on for me. The in-between was pretty good marvel fare.

 

[joberg]

Criticism of an aspect of something or questioning it at all on any level immediately means that you must entirely hate it lol.

Nothing's perfect in this World...wait, Death: that's the only Perfection

 

[renaissance_man]

Nothing's perfect in this World...wait, Death: that's the only Perfection

Not sure I would go with perfect on that
Certain, yes, perfect no.

 

[Cookiee Monsta]

Given China won't take Shang Chi because of of what Simu has said in the past. Will Marvel recast for future films?

 

[signeddiamond]

Given China won't take Shang Chi because of of what Simu has said in the past. Will Marvel recast for future films?

I was considering this the other day when it became really clear China wasn’t going to flex on this one. Maybe not integrating to deeply into the existing universe was a strategic move in the event that the Chinese government completely rejected the character period. Not only would you risk not having the second largest moviegoing market skip this film but potentially any film incorporating the character in the future in any capacity.

Very unfortunate if that’s the case but we will just need to see. Maybe Shang Chi will just need to be more of a streaming only property?

 

[renaissance_man]

Given China won't take Shang Chi because of of what Simu has said in the past. Will Marvel recast for future films?

Not a chance. Simu was amazing in this film and Terrence-Terryology-Howard not withstanding, Marvel standby their talent.

If China has a problem with Simu's comments, that is their problem.
Granted it may hurt box office, but if you start recasting your actors to appease a tetchy nation it sends out the wrong signal.
Simu will be an important player moving forward especially given Wong and Bruce's comments to Shang Chi in the mid credits teaser scene.

 

[signeddiamond]

I just think it’s much more likely that because any film he’s in runs the risk of being banned in China you won’t see Simu in an Avengers film or any kind of crossover.

If Marvel wants to keep their box office numbers in the billions then it would make sense to have Shang Chi be the key figure of a Disney+ Marvel universe. Much like all the Defenders properties at Netflix Simu would have his own show and build to a larger team with the other streaming characters. This really is the only winning move I can see unless they recast (very bad optics on that one) or somehow make peace with China which would likely include a very uncool forced apology from Simu.

Really it’s a shame to see such an interesting property needlessly censored into failure. With current projections holding it won’t make much more then breaking even at theaters.

 

[joberg]

Not sure I would go with perfect on that
Certain, yes, perfect no.

Maybe your idea of perfection is different than mine