Joker (origin film)
- Thread starter Sundowner
- Start date
I love Joaquin Phoenix. But I am a bit underwhelmed by the premise of how he becomes Joker. I do not like that "victim of society"-motif, nor do I like to see him having mental health problems. Adding bullies and making him even more of a victim does not make me feel sympathetic for or even in this particular rendition of the Joker.
It strongly reminds me of "Falling down", a movie I actually started out liking but when the backstory was told of why the main character acts the way he does, I completely lost interest in that character and felt kind of betrayed.
The Joker in many, many, many of his incarnations and interpretations is and always will be one of my favourite villains. He always was a maniac, and the first origin story of how the red hood, a caring family father down on his luck turned into a criminal, lost everything and went off the cliff. THAT really touched me.
But this version here does atm nothing for me. It seems too simple, too cutout template psycho.
It may be to some extent because I hate the choice for his first name. I do wonder why a lot of criminals and psychos have recently been named "Arthur" in TV and movies. Last time in The Punisher series. Am I missing something or does that name have a certain connotation in the English speaking parts of the world?
It strongly reminds me of "Falling down", a movie I actually started out liking but when the backstory was told of why the main character acts the way he does, I completely lost interest in that character and felt kind of betrayed.
The Joker in many, many, many of his incarnations and interpretations is and always will be one of my favourite villains. He always was a maniac, and the first origin story of how the red hood, a caring family father down on his luck turned into a criminal, lost everything and went off the cliff. THAT really touched me.
But this version here does atm nothing for me. It seems too simple, too cutout template psycho.
It may be to some extent because I hate the choice for his first name. I do wonder why a lot of criminals and psychos have recently been named "Arthur" in TV and movies. Last time in The Punisher series. Am I missing something or does that name have a certain connotation in the English speaking parts of the world?
DARTH ANIBAL
Sr Member
Absolutely. I hate to put so much pressure on it, but this could be one of those few "perfect" movies.
I’m not a Joaquin Phoenix fan. I’m not a DC/Warner’s fan. But this looks great. When playing iconic villains most actors just do their take on the eccentric bombastic megalomaniac (I would argue that even Ledger’s Joker is simply a very good and engaging version of that). I hate that. Phoenix’s portrayal is evidently layered with more thought and intelligence. I love how he uses his voice and the deliberate and vulnerable phrasing. I’ve never appreciated him as an actor really until I saw these trailers.
The one thing I hope they don't do is to boil down his entire motive to resentment and retaliation against a world that’s been cruel to him. This character has the potential for more psychological complexity if they only resist the the impulse to bottle up his character up into an archetype.
The one thing I hope they don't do is to boil down his entire motive to resentment and retaliation against a world that’s been cruel to him. This character has the potential for more psychological complexity if they only resist the the impulse to bottle up his character up into an archetype.
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Frenzy1971
Well-Known Member
No one ever mentions this guy in the Joker line-up. Look at that them crazy eyes.
I think I'd be happy with a modern (good) CG clown prince (Arkham Asylym-ish) voiced by Mark Hamill.
I think I'd be happy with a modern (good) CG clown prince (Arkham Asylym-ish) voiced by Mark Hamill.
Always forget that one. And I watched that show every day after school, never knew it was hamill until I was older
matty matt
Sr Member
Suicide Squad used a version of it.
Axlotl
Master Member
Ugh. That movie didn't deserve this song.
PantheraGem
Sr Member
Faith No More did a great cover.
Gimpdiggity
Master Member
Joker First Reviews: Give Joaquin Phoenix the Oscar, Already
Critics say Todd Phillips' origin story for Batman's greatest foe is dominated by Phoenix's magnetic performance and offers some poignant social commentary to boot.
editorial.rottentomatoes.com
Early reviews are extremely solid...with some mentioning Phoenix and Oscar in the same sentence.
I share the same concern. Simply making him a victim that goes a little "overboard" in paying back those who wronged him somewhat bypasses the psychotic state of mind that defines the character. The madness of the Joker can't be born strictly as a retaliation against society although it(society) can be a contributing factor for Arthur to unleash it. I think though we have to see signs of the Joker mania in Arthur even when his life is still relatively peaceful and in that understand there's a pre-existing desire for evil deeds that resides in him unrelated to any external aggression he encounters. The trick is going to be how to present Arthur as both likeable and sympathetic but also a psychotic ticking time bomb about to be unleashed on Gotham.
I'm really excited to see how they approach this.
Edit: I wanted to add hopefully they also make sure to address in-depth (and it looks like they do) how the identity of a clown works into the Joker's manic persona.
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I think it's hinted at in the trailer that it's not just a matter of him being pushed into the corner or overlooked that causes him to snap. I think it will be established that he has problems to begin with and that with the added pressure of the outside world his coping mechanisms are not enough to keep him from going over the edge.
The new trailer really seems to suggest this with that scene of him with the social worker and openly telling her that all he has are dark thoughts. Even the overheard shot of him journaling his struggles hints at this.
It's really these scenes that I am looking forward to the most because they are going to be the kind that requires a subtlety that I think Joaquin has in spades.
I looked at the initial reviews of the film (careful to avoid any spoilers) and already there are some that are taking a political/ social stance on the movie which frustrates me because they are clearly exposing their own agenda driven bias, but for the more reasonable takes it will spark a discussion that is more relevant now than ever. Though I don't want it's reception to be completely engulfed in politics because then it destroys it as an art form whose primary function is to entertain. Film in that sense then becomes propaganda and fails on an artistic level in my mind because what makes for a strong talking point in a debate doesn't necessarily make for an entertaining film.
As long as the film makers are intent on telling a good story that is thought provoking without resorting to pushing an agenda one way or another then I am fully on board.
As a film I think it looks incredible and I'm going to try to get my butt to the theater to see it!
The new trailer really seems to suggest this with that scene of him with the social worker and openly telling her that all he has are dark thoughts. Even the overheard shot of him journaling his struggles hints at this.
It's really these scenes that I am looking forward to the most because they are going to be the kind that requires a subtlety that I think Joaquin has in spades.
I looked at the initial reviews of the film (careful to avoid any spoilers) and already there are some that are taking a political/ social stance on the movie which frustrates me because they are clearly exposing their own agenda driven bias, but for the more reasonable takes it will spark a discussion that is more relevant now than ever. Though I don't want it's reception to be completely engulfed in politics because then it destroys it as an art form whose primary function is to entertain. Film in that sense then becomes propaganda and fails on an artistic level in my mind because what makes for a strong talking point in a debate doesn't necessarily make for an entertaining film.
As long as the film makers are intent on telling a good story that is thought provoking without resorting to pushing an agenda one way or another then I am fully on board.
As a film I think it looks incredible and I'm going to try to get my butt to the theater to see it!
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I’m fascinated by the romantic relationship he has with the girl. But, please, please, please don’t make her death his tipping point. PLEASE DON’T!!!! This film has so much promise and that move cliché would be a fumble at the 5 yard line.
I’m hoping maybe like something akin to Wilson Fisk/Vanessa - even if it’s a blatant knockoff of that relationship I wouldn’t mind. Just, for God’s sake, please don’t fridge her.
I’m hoping maybe like something akin to Wilson Fisk/Vanessa - even if it’s a blatant knockoff of that relationship I wouldn’t mind. Just, for God’s sake, please don’t fridge her.
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Awesome! Yeah, like I said I don't want to watch the second trailer so I didn't know about that scene. Good stuff. I can't remember the last movie I got this excited about.
I'm with you 100% on political agendas in movies whether they come from critics or from the filmmakers themselves. Just give me the story and let me decide what I take from it. This is why I try my best to not read up too much on movies before I see them. I just want to enjoy them for what they are without anyone's bias interfering.
