Eastern Alliance Destroyer Photos on Modeler's Magic site

[Lear60man]

All true, but I think we are talking about two different things. Yes a copyright remains. But you no longer have control over an item once it leaves your hands. It has been proven again and again here and on the RI. That was my point. I am not condoning it in any way as sharing private information is wrong any way you slice it.

Absolutely false. Trading, selling or giving photos, the copyright remains that of the photographer (or who hired the photographer) unless the copyright is explicitly transferred.

It's too bad when someone you trusted decides to perform an illegal (or immoral) act, but control of the photos does not transfer.

Another analogy, Stephen King writes a book and he gives you a copy. This does not transfer any rights to you. You cannot start making copies of it.

Or, Stephen King writes a book and he gives a copy to some immoral piece of crap. The IPoC makes a copy and gives it to you, tells you that you can post it online and you stupidly do so. You even go so far post along with the book, "Thanks for writing such a great book, Mr. King."

Despite what you were told by the IPoC, you have committed copyright infringment and Stephen King not only has a right to demand the removal of the book, but he now has an actionable case against you and you can tell your side to the judge and hope for mercy.

 

[DARKSIDE72]

Where are Kurts fawning devotees I wonder? No one running to their masters defence this time with some BS excuse for his behavior?

Kurt you are a pathetic disgrace...

Take a high-res photograph of yourself with a model why don't you and feed your silly ass ego in snowballed studio scale joy to share with the idiotic masses who think your a gift to the hobby :rolleyes...

 

[Nwerke]

All true, but I think we are talking about two different things. Yes a copyright remains. But you no longer have control over an item once it leaves your hands. It has been proven again and again here and on the RI. That was my point. I am not condoning it in any way as sharing private information is wrong any way you slice it.

That's how I took your remark. The reality is that if you put something out there it will go beyond your control. It's happened to me with drawings and photos a couple of times, and also a complete GK (suspected). I try to be casual about it. For me at least it's not my livelihood at stake, fortunately.

But breaking a gentleman's agreement? This is why I think a gentleman's agreement can exist between a maximum of two gentlemen...even then, keep your fingers crossed.

I'm probably on record as disliking reference-hoarding for the sake of reference-hoarding, but I'll accept that there are industry sources who may be shy of making their stuff public. Can anyone tell us out of the loop folks how quantifiable the damage really is? Name no names, but how many industry guys have actually said "you're getting nothing more from us, sunshine!"?

 

[moffeaton]

I got cut off from one main "source" of wonderful and helpful research photos as a direct result of the fallout from Kurt's behavior. This cascaded a little and resulted in real-world loss of commission work on a few things that hinged on better reference. So I theoretically lost money as a direct result.

A close friend lost MAJOR hookups with a few 3D guys that had made MANY amazing garage kits possible - so everyone lost out and will continue to lose out from that dynamic.

The guys who still send me stuff and WAY skittish now, and I feel like I'm guilty before innocent, having to prove myself every time we work a deal. It's not life or death in the grand scheme of things of course, but it's a constant reminder and an irritant.

There's more... it was a huge thorn in many people's sides, and proves to be a continual irritant.

 

[Nwerke]

Bugger. Frankly that IS worse than I imagined, Jason.

 

[moffeaton]

Yeah, it's pretty sad.

 

[Commander Max]

He did say he wanted to change the hobby.

 

[moffeaton]

Zing! :lol

 

[Jedi Dade]

For the record I'm on the side that KK is not trustworthy with this stuff but I find the logic of this argument quoted below to be a bit "off" in a hobby that's main purpose is to construct copyright infringement for personal enjoyment... although I do agree what Viperpilot was trying to say

The posting of Doug's photos is reprehensible. The fact that they were given, traded or sold to ONE party (or for the sake of arguement, a half of a million parties) by Doug does not relinquish license to that one party, or any subsequent parties to do what they please with the photos.

They're Doug's photos to do with, or not do with, what HE pleases.

Posting or further distribution, not only infringes upon his copyright, it's just not moral.

For the weak of mind that can't quite get their head wrapped around this, here are a couple of an analogies to help you limp along:

If one buys a book, whether hardcopy or electronic, is it okay to scan the book and post it online, or upload the electronic version? You came across the book legally, right? And it's a good thing for you to want to share it with others, right?

If one buys a DVD, is it okay to upload it or make a few copies for your friends? You bought the book legally, right? And it's a good thing for you to want to share it with others, right?

The bottom line is that no matter who Doug relinquished copies (but not license) of his photos to, there is no logical arguement that can be made that would result in the empowerment of anyone but Doug to post or copy his photos.

I don't have a problem with the copyright infringemnt part as much as the total disregard for how releasing reference without permission can have ripple effects back to the source that can have severe real world cpnsequences. That's the part I think Kurt is totally clueless about recognizing...

Jedi Dade

 

[imaginager]

I wouldn't say "clueless". Indifferrent is probably more apt, because he is aware of the consequences Jason described above. In fact, I would go so far as to label his actions 'malicious'.

 

[Commander Max]

I wouldn't say "clueless". Indifferrent is probably more apt, because he is aware of the consequences Jason described above. In fact, I would go so far as to label his actions 'malicious'.

He posted images, everybody went off. He apologized, then did it again. That in my book shows malicious intent. And he knew the stuff wasn't supposed to be shared before he posted anything.

This smells of sour grapes, or "if I can't have what I want, nobody can."

 

[GKvfx]

Gads, where to begin.....

I was going to type out another long winded piece, but then realized that I had just done it a month ago in another thread. So here's my link - http://www.therpf.com/showpost.php?p=913161&postcount=16

Gene

 

[kitbasher]

the irony of all this, folks-- is that I would have consented to my photos being posted publicly (as I indicated in my first post) If I simply had been asked first.

I really dont think that's too much to ask. Common F'ing Courtesy.

 

[imaginager]

I think the more revealing aspect is the people who say they 'just want to build a model'....well, never seem to actually build the model. There seems to be a fair number who are far more practiced at crying foul than capitalizing on reference. The people who choose not to scratchbuild, sometimes even criticize a kit for perceived inaccuracy, then cry foul because they don't have the same reference the GK maker does... Pretty demanding individuals.

 

[Commander Max]

If these guys who are being so demanding actually built the model. Regardless of reference, guys would pass on the reference. Because they see the guy is serious about building.
Besides we are supposed to be modelers, if a guy has a problem with a model's accuracy. Why complain, just figure out a way to make the model better. Then post your improvements, if people don't agree they will at least have respect.

 

[moffeaton]

I try to encourage every single person I meet that shows any aptitude at all with model building - any skill level, any age. I remember when I was AWFUL at some of this, and I still think I have a ways to go. It's nice to have a goal, and work towards it, and it's really cool when someone takes the time out of their day to give feedback or pay a compliment. I have learned a ton from people here, and I hope I've helped people out with their projects!

I think a lot of the time it's a confidence issue. A lack of confidence can discourage you from even attempting something like scratch building. I have made things that I never thought I could pull off the way I did, and it gives me a boost to go "bigger, better, faster". A lot of these naysayers strike me as the kinds of people who have low confidence, or vulnerable self-images, and think that by tearing everyone else down, they can rise above. Of course, they never do anything of real substance, but their short-term goals are met, when they have peed on someone's hard work.

It's hard to shrug it off sometimes because you're only human, but when you understand what's going on and why people do the wacky things they do, the hobby waters get a lot easier to navigate.

 

[moffeaton]

Oh, and about the reference thing - I fully expect some "these are EXACTLY what I needed" pics of the Blade Runner blimp to fall into my hands, AFTER I finish the project... I'm bracing for it, actually, as it's usually just a classic case of bad cosmic timing, lol!

So I've mentally prepared myself to make that project as best I can with what I have on-hand... and be satisfied at that level, lol. Otherwise, I'd want to throw myself off a bridge :lol

 

[3d-builder]

Oh, and about the reference thing - I fully expect some "these are EXACTLY what I needed" pics of the Blade Runner blimp to fall into my hands, AFTER I finish the project... I'm bracing for it, actually, as it's usually just a classic case of bad cosmic timing, lol!

So I've mentally prepared myself to make that project as best I can with what I have on-hand... and be satisfied at that level, lol. Otherwise, I'd want to throw myself off a bridge :lol

Jason I live on that bridge also.......down about 1/4 mile on the left!!thumbsup
Hey we will never make perfect models, but for sure this stuff never helps the situation!

 

[Kuhn Global]

I was just made aware that well over 100 photos I took several years ago of the original Eastern Alliance Destroyer miniature have been posted on Kurt Kuhn's Modeler's Miniatures website.

While I appreciate being credited with taking the photos, I am dismayed that no permission for their use was sought by Kurt or other involved parties.

I find it particularly ironic that Kurt "admits" the photos were taken by someone else (me) and yet did not think it necessary to ask if they could be displayed online in a public setting.

As it happens, I don't mind sharing the photos with studio scale fans-- but there is NO excuse for them being posted without my permission.

Were no lessons learned from the Red Five controversy?

'Basher
(Doug)

Hi Doug.

I found out (after the fact) that SOME of these photos were taken by you from Mark Dickson. I also spoke with Jon Billings (who was kewl with it all as long as I removed the full face shots of him). When I found out some were yours, I asked Mark for your email and told him I would comply with your wishes now that I know that they did not entirely come from Mark. Of course I wanted to I know what those were when I eventually spoke with you. Apparantly Mark's email is out to get me your email address, but he did PM me last night that you were Kit Basher on the RPF.This is the first I have known that you were Basher here. That stated I am very easy to get hold of, and would have hoped to clear this up between you and I. Other than here... please contact me and let me know which photos are yours in the batch and I will remove them accordingly. I am not by any means stating that it was your responsibility to contact me, but that my inquiries fell short in finding you, so I will have to rely on you to contact me at this time please.

(Big Sigh) The facts always seem to come out after things are posted... (yes.. largely due to me NOT investigating the origins) so please people... if you don't want something scene... make certain they are not handed out. I say this because we all know they will cycle through that back area nobody discusses.

Many things are given to me by folks all over the world. If they do... and they have no issue with me posting them... I will post them. And I always credit people unless they wish not to be credited. I think those who protest what I do would be VERY surprised as to how many people have stepped up to give things to me to post now that they know somebody is willing to stand up and do so.

I haven't yet read the responses here. Truth be told I will always still wish everyone well, and continue with what I, and now thousands of others around the world, are committed to doing. And that is promoting the art for many more years of it's existence. You may have different opinion of how to do that... and I hope you implement your way someday.

Doug... you may contact me through PM on the RI... or contact Jon or Mark for my email. I will comply with your wishes. Until that time... I will pull the entire post for a few days, or until I hear from you. If I don't hear from you, I will at least find out from Mark which of the batch was taken by he ... and then post those accordingly.... and them remove you from the credit line. Of course I would much rather keep you in the loop.

Here is another tidbit. The Reference is not looked at like those who covet it think it is. When people view the gallery... they view the incredible artists there.... NOT the reference as much as is thought. I am very pleased to see that. I only place it up now to give option to those who would attempt to recreate a great piece or two. A world of modelers, future modelers, and collectors are viewing that site daily to view the art there... and people are getting sales and commissions from those viewings. I pay for it and ask for nothing in return. Yup... I am a real bad guy.

Well? Whatever you believe about me... Be Well!

 

[3d-builder]

I belong to a IPMS modeling club we do make and takes for the kids,
and send models over seas to troops, teach the kids to shoot off rockets
and demos in schools that have 3D design classes.That is supporting the hobby, sorry but looking at your site I don't see how it supports the hobby,
there is simply not enough constructive building material there for this!

This hobby will never be carried by one man on his back, it will always be carried by the builders may they be scratch-builders or kit builders, prop builders, costumers CG guys.......

Seems to me Kurt you need to scratch your place into the hobby, there is no place to scratch it's just a hobby.To get to what you want I have watched you do some very stupid stuff!:thumbsdown