Dark Knight Rises

[Hecubus114]

I dont take offense - its your opinion and you're more than entitled to it. But calling people short sighted and ignorant just because they like something you don't (or more than you do) is ironic in itself. I never called what Nolan is doing "definitive" in any way. I said he accomplished what he set out to do - which was make a very specifically styled Batman film which incorporated more realistic aspects than what we see in the comics or other Batman films. Some people, myself included, feel that he greatly succeeded and made great movies. It's not something you consider great - that's fine. Is your opinion the end all? Personally I think most Marvel movies are sub par and honestly thought Captain America was very poorly made. But I accept that that is MY opinion, and would never "expect" anyone to agree with me. If other people loved it - good for them. It didn't work for me. I didnt go into the CA thread and repeatedly imply that people just think they liked it when it was actually not that good.

My point about Batman existing in so many different mediums is this: there is NO definitive Batman. The character has been created so many different ways that fans can choose which one is their favorite. Of course fans who want to see a more "true to the comics" Batman movie have every right to want that. Batman isn't going anywhere. The movies will go on. Nolan had his turn, did it his way, made many people happy, and is stepping aside now that his turn is done.

 

[benhs1898]

and yet in every iteration, every interpretation of the comics, no matter who is writing them, ALL of Batman's rogues gallery Do exist. And yes, no matter who is writing him, there is only ONE Batman, and in every generation, every incarnation, in every comic, All of the rogues are there, in the order they were created, of coures.

So you're saying that Nolan's universe is somehow lacking because it fails to address every single villain? :rolleyes

Nolan's films are so weak because there is NO mention of the Penny Plunderer!

Edit: Oh, and that isn't even true. Not every series or miniseries includes every villain. Look at the Long Halloween and the other two Loeb collaborations. A lot of them are there but not all of them.

Most of what you are saying is contradictory or completely incorrect. Opinion is one thing, false claims are another.

 

[JD]

So basically, well at least what I'm getting from the trailers is Batman dies or is crippled and Joseph Gordon-Levitt's character takes over.

I just saved everyone $10.

 

[benhs1898]

Hardy har har.

 

[DarklyDreaming]

I didn't call anyone ignorant, and I am saying Nolans version is lacking because he has blatantly said that several characters from Batmans universe would not exist in his, to me that make the world he has created woefully incomplete. I do not condemn anyone for enjoying the films Nolan has created, but at least I am objective about it, I see the pitfalls, omissions and inconsistancies of the Burton films as well, and I can honestly say that taking away the nostalgia I have for Burtons films, I do enjoy Nolans films just as much, but to say that the films Burton made weren't as psychologically deep as the films that Burton made just seems a little far fetched to me. If anything Burton paved the way for what Nolan was able to expand upon and accomplish,

 

[DarklyDreaming]

pretty sure JGL dies

 

[bogeyphobia99]

pretty sure JGL dies

Based on...?

 

[benhs1898]

I didn't call anyone ignorant, and I am saying Nolans version is lacking because he has blatantly said that several characters from Batmans universe would not exist in his, to me that make the world he has created woefully incomplete. I do not condemn anyone for enjoying the films Nolan has created, but at least I am objective about it, I see the pitfalls, omissions and inconsistancies of the Burton films as well, and I can honestly say that taking away the nostalgia I have for Burtons films, I do enjoy Nolans films just as much, but to say that the films Burton made weren't as psychologically deep as the films that Burton made just seems a little far fetched to me. If anything Burton paved the way for what Nolan was able to expand upon and accomplish,

Sorry, but by definition nothing you have said has been objective. Objective points would pertain to writing and storytelling. Yes, Returns is a solid script but as a psychologist I can say that Returns does not have any real psychological material. It's more dualistic. Good and evil. Plain and simple.

Burton's films do not include ALL of Batman's rogues gallery. Even so, it isn't quantity, it's quality. While he isn't featured very long, Victor Zsaz is a much more important inclusion than Freeze or Ivy. Nolans villains serve specific thematic purposes. They're not just there to be "bad".

 

[bogeyphobia99]

...and I am saying Nolans version is lacking because he has blatantly said that several characters from Batmans universe would not exist in his, to me that make the world he has created woefully incomplete...

I mean sure, I'd love to see what Nolan would do with Mr. Freeze, The Riddler, or even someone like Killer Croc, but at the same time, what I love about Nolan's villain choice is that essentially, he's cut the fat...so to speak. Nolan's chosen the villains who specifically work toward evolving the character of Bruce Wayne/Batman. It's not just having a new villain enter Gotham, only for Batman to fight him or her, but rather having an opposition that pushes Bruce Wayne/Batman to his respectable limits.

 

[DarklyDreaming]

really, Zaz, who was onscreen for all of 5 seconds....and themes, so the themes of duality in Batman returns were less important than the themes in Begins or Dark Knight?

 

[DarklyDreaming]

And as far as using villains that evolve the character of Bruce Wayne, how many of the masses actually caught the subtle nature of Harvey Dent's turn mirroring Bruces own when the Joker got all the press?

 

[benhs1898]

really, Zaz, who was onscreen for all of 5 seconds....and themes, so the themes of duality in Batman returns were less important than the themes in Begins or Dark Knight?

Zsaz, again, was only in there for a little but is a much more important character than most of Batman's rogue gallery.

Yes, the search for a father figure is entirely more worldly and interesting than goody vs baddy. The way Gordon, Alfred, even Ras represent the surrogate father for Bruce is more engaging than watching two people fight just because. The tension between master and student from idealogical differences is much more nuanced.

Just the question of what makes a true hero is explored to great effect in TDK. Basically Gordon and Batman, the two truly good men put all of their faith into Dent. The whole city puts their faith in Dent when the whole time Dent shows signs of weakness. Eventually he puts the symbol of hope he represents at risk.

That is MUCH more complex than good vs. evil.

 

[bogeyphobia99]

Zsaz, again, was only in there for a little but is a much more important character than most of Batman's rogue gallery.

Yes, the search for a father figure is entirely more worldly and interesting than goody vs baddy.

Just the question of what makes a true hero is explored to great effect in TDK. Basically Gordon and Batman, the two truly good men put all of their faith into Dent. The whole city puts their faith in Dent when the whole time Dent shows signs of weakness. Eventually he puts the symbol of hope he represents at risk.

That is MUCH more complex than good vs. evil.

Bingo.:thumbsup

 

[DarklyDreaming]

BUt you are saying that it is more complex, and that is true, but it still boils down to Goodie (harvey) vs baddie (two face) which also plays into the same themes of duality that were present in Batman Returns. And redemption plays a significant role in Dark Knight, as it does in Batman Returns. I'm sure these same themes will be present in Rises as well. Look, I am not knocking what Nolan has done, he has crafted 2 good films, based on this character, I simply fail to see how people can say that what he has done is what will define the character in film for generations to come, and I take exception to people saying that Nolans vision is any more relevant than what has come before.

 

[JD]

I didn't call anyone ignorant, and I am saying Nolans version is lacking because he has blatantly said that several characters from Batmans universe would not exist in his, to me that make the world he has created woefully incomplete. I do not condemn anyone for enjoying the films Nolan has created, but at least I am objective about it, I see the pitfalls, omissions and inconsistancies of the Burton films as well, and I can honestly say that taking away the nostalgia I have for Burtons films, I do enjoy Nolans films just as much, but to say that the films Burton made weren't as psychologically deep as the films that Burton made just seems a little far fetched to me. If anything Burton paved the way for what Nolan was able to expand upon and accomplish,

I'm not the world's biggest Tim Burton fan, but he got enough of it right with the first Batman. I'm not as big a fan of Returns - but, I still find that better than what Nolan's giving us.

If you like the Nolan Batman, that's cool. I don't get it.

Dark does not equal realistic. Batman is not a ninja. The Joker? Dark Knight's Joker was very flawed... but, Ledger gave an amazing performance that saved it. A bad cop movie with Batman in it does not make it a good movie.

Dark Knight Rises already has one strike against it... Bane. What I know about this character, I don't like. He was created to break Batman, just as Doomsday was created to kill Superman - I don't like them for those reasons, because the creators were too afraid or to told to not have 'regulars' do the deeds.

Anyhow... it seems terribly transparent something bad happens to Bats. We have Gordon talking to someone in a hospital.

There's the prophesy from Batman Begins: "As Bruce Wayne, as a man, I’m flesh and blood I can be ignored. I can be destroyed. But, as a symbol, as a symbol I can be incorruptible, I can be everlasting." So we've got Bruce hurt/dead/crippled and we get Joseph Gordon Levitt's good cop letting the symbol live on - or RISE.

So, yeah... Nolan - who I acknowledge has been terribly successful with these films - is going to kill off the character. Frankly, it's not much of a loss, as his Batman wasn't much of a Batman to begin with. ...I mean, c'mon he disappers for years!?!?

 

[DarklyDreaming]

Actually, Batman is a ninja.....just sayin

 

[benhs1898]

BUt you are saying that it is more complex, and that is true, but it still boils down to Goodie (harvey) vs baddie (two face) which also plays into the same themes of duality that were present in Batman Returns. And redemption plays a significant role in Dark Knight, as it does in Batman Returns. I'm sure these same themes will be present in Rises as well. Look, I am not knocking what Nolan has done, he has crafted 2 good films, based on this character, I simply fail to see how people can say that what he has done is what will define the character in film for generations to come, and I take exception to people saying that Nolans vision is any more relevant than what has come before.

That is not what Harvey Dent boils down to. You've probably watched Batman Forever by mistake. Dark Knight's Dent/Two Face is much more about the frustration. He has the desire to do good but loses hope when his love is murdered. He is then manipulated into taking revenge. His ideology was much weaker than Batman or Gordon's and we see this when he eventually falls.

Not just good and evil. It is more nuanced than that.

 

[JD]

I sincerely apologize for being too negative here. I don't like it when other folks come in threads just to whine... and I know I'm whining a bit here.

These films don't do it for me. If you like them - and it's obvious a lot of people do, that's cool.

I saw DarklyDreaming's post a felt a need to reply... and well, I do think it's obvious Nolan intends to hurt Batman and I'd really like to hear some other theories/feedback about this possible death/crippling of Nolan's Batman.

 

[DarklyDreaming]

Actually Harvey Dent has been Two Face since childhood when he was abused by his father creating a split personality, thus the use of the coin to make his decisions, as he feels that his coin toss is the only true justice. And as far as Rises goes, Bane does not cripple Bruce, he beats the hell out of him, leaves him for dead, and Bruce has to overcome this defeat to RISE to the challenge of Bane.

 

[benhs1898]

Actually Harvey Dent has been Two Face since childhood when he was abused by his father creating a split personality, thus the use of the coin to make his decisions, as he feels that his coin toss is the only true justice. And as far as Rises goes, Bane does not cripple Bruce, he beats the hell out of him, leaves him for dead, and Bruce has to overcome this defeat to RISE to the challenge of Bane.

Where do you get that from TDK?

JD, it's okay. It is kind of annoying that instead of being able to share excitement with others who are excited the last couple pages have been people dissing it, but it happens.

I think of it this way; I have no desire to go into a thread simply to say "I don't like that, it's BAAAD" so it seems a bit crass when others do it.

I think the possibility of Bruce dying is very interesting. It brings Nolan's thematic cycle to a close. There is nothing wrong with this. Batman has been different people before in the comics as well. It really goes back to the idea- as you stated- that a true hero is an ideal, not a man. That there should be no glory for the individual. Rather the peace of mind created by a collective belief in hope and change.