Can I recast an AA Helmet ?

Discussion in 'Replica Props' started by DrStranglove, Mar 27, 2006.

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  1. DrStranglove

    DrStranglove Sr Member

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    If not, why not?

    Esp since it seems he lied about the whole buis of making them from orig molds and other stuff.
     
  2. JediCarl

    JediCarl Well-Known Member

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    Oh boy...

    :::grabs some popcorn, Large Coke, and Milk Duds::::

    :love
     
  3. Apollo

    Apollo Legendary Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    ......Apollo pulls up a chair and opens a bag of Doritos.........
     
  4. Art Andrews

    Art Andrews Community Owner Community Staff

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    .... shakes head at people who purposefully try to stir crap.....
     
  5. slave1pilot

    slave1pilot Sr Member

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    good thing we aren't on some other forums were the Mods get trigger happy.
     
  6. voice in the crowd

    voice in the crowd Sr Member

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    I take it this is a theoretical question as according to the people who don't like AA his helmet isn't worth recasting anyway (I am sure we will hear that opinion expressed many times in this thread and many other negative AA opinions that are not relevant to your question :rolleyes ).

    Are you asking for an official RPF staff answer to clarify their rules on recasting?

    Are you just looking for opinion from RPF members?

    This is being discussed at www.propcircle.com along with other recasting issues http://www.propcircle.com/showthread.php?t=100 for anyone interested.

    I posted this over at propcircle.

    There are many unexplainable grey areas in the RPF that just seem to be set in stone as ok or not ok.

    Here are some examples.

    AA is not a member of the RPF so doesn't warrant the honour amongst thieves rules. TrooperExpert is not a member of the RPF but he still enjoys being covered by the rules of the RPF.

    Armour F/X was made by GF years ago but it seems fair game for anyone to copy this armour (just look at the 501st). To copy GF's second armour (more screen accurate) or TE armour is recasting. The strange thing is GF would have spent more time and effort making his scratch built F/X armour but because it isn't 'screen accurate' it is almost looked down upon by some and not worthy of defending.

    Copying a licensed MR stand is seen to be recasting but copies of Don Post's Deluxe Vader and Fett have littered the junkyard and these are licensed props. Then on the the other hand an unlicensed Fett or Vader helmet from a member of the RPF who has had their hands on an original without LFL's permission is recasting .

    The interpretation of the rules would suggest that the RPF have to allow people to recast AA/SDS is probably correct but the whole point is the rules are so vague in this area that they are open to interpretation.

    The code of conduct rules for recasting is a guideline for prop makers to do the right thing. Many individual cases have different circumstances but common sense should hopefully provail and if it doesn't then the COC has failed. I think if AA was recast and it was found to be acceptable then the COC would have failed.

    I suppose what it really comes down to with AA/SDS is if your not a member of the forum and you have just lost in the local popularity contest does it give the members who don't like you a collective right to just say well we don't like him so lets throw away our principles bend the rules to suit ourselves.

    Can you answer why you should be allowed to recast AA? Because he isn't a member here? Because he isn't popular here? Because he has lied in the past?

    I don't mean to sound aggressive towards you Dr. S but I cannot see why it would be ok to recast AA. I don't see that two wrongs will make a right

    Sorry about all the questions but it isn't every day someone posts for clearance to recast somebody elses work :lol

    Your one simple question has now posed loads of ethical questions.

    I hope you get the answers you are looking for.

    Cheers Chris.
     
  7. streetjudge79

    streetjudge79 Sr Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Why are you even starting this crap all over again? Aren't we all just sick and tired of this topic?Man, if I were a Mod, this would be deleted immediately and an instant suspension for Dr. S.
     
  8. DrStranglove

    DrStranglove Sr Member

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    (Little trigger happy there Street? You once told me the only dumb question is the one not asked. If you are tired, why bother to read my thread?)

    To be sure, VITC is correct when he says "Are you asking for an official RPF staff answer to clarify their rules on recasting?"

    It has come up twice that I know of in other forums and everyone seems to be going over and over what the opinion of the RPF leaders would be. I just seem to be the first to actually ask.

    If that is so bad as to warrant suspension in your eyes than you do not need to include yourself in the thread please.
     
  9. Jedi-72

    Jedi-72 Sr Member

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    :lol Fire in the hole.
     
  10. streetjudge79

    streetjudge79 Sr Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Why do you need to start this $##$% all over again? Don't you have anything better to do with your life? I guess not.
    Jesus, it's only a TOY helmet.. get over yourself already. Get a life.
     
  11. Jack Bauer

    Jack Bauer Well-Known Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    [​IMG]

    I don't know if I can handle another AA thread. Good question. bad execution. From the get go you stated "since it seems he lied about the whole buis of making them from orig molds " where you should have just left it at the original question.

    Can you?..... "YES."
    Should you?.... "that's up to you".

    I direct people to this fun thread on a related topic

    I also ask a question that has been on my mind each time I open a box of Bite-size milk chocolatey goodness-covered caramels....... are two milk duds stuck together REALLY called a "milk-dude".?
     
  12. Egon Spengler

    Egon Spengler Sr Member

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    I don't think it's a bad question as people have modified and sometimes recast old classic action style helmets on here and no one complained about that. Or am I wrong and didn't see that sort of thing like I thought? -blink- Yes I'm being serious.
     
  13. slave1pilot

    slave1pilot Sr Member

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    The Code of Conduct says;

    2. Post/thread content:
    The following is NOT allowed to be included in any post/thread on the RPF:
    a. *
    b. sexism
    c. racism
    d. religion
    e. politics

    If I were a mod, I'd delete your post & Give you an Instant Suspension for mentioning the name of The Son of God.

    :lol
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 8, 2018
  14. streetjudge79

    streetjudge79 Sr Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Why even bring up recasting? He knows the answer, he's just being a smart *. Dr S. why don't you get off your computer and go do something productive with your life tonight instead of stirring up trouble again. Maybe go drive your ferarri around the block or something.
     
  15. streetjudge79

    streetjudge79 Sr Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Good one Slave1pilot.. lol
     
  16. DrStranglove

    DrStranglove Sr Member

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    Street, you are the one reading it. So I will again ask you to please stay out of the thread if you can not help.

    Thanks.
     
  17. hydin

    hydin Sr Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    man, leela and walken have the same expression, thats kinda cool :lol

    as far as the topic goes.... i gotta ask why bother?

    the rpf, in general, frowns on recasting. theres the "ok" recasting where you ask the person, theres the "grey area" where you recast studio props or no longer produced things by companies or fans if you cant find the original maker, and the "you suck" area where you recast someone elses work thats a fellow prop fan and they are currently selling casts.

    the answer to your question, to me, is pretty obvious. if its currently being offered by someone somewhere as thier original work, then no, recasting is bad. and by original work i mean they sculpted something on it, they rebuilt something, they are offering it, etc. im not getting dragged into another "what specific situation do i have to have in order to get the ok to recast something" arguement. if you gotta ask about it, chances are its not ok.

    i gotta wonder though... why is it across 2 boards, we gotta wonder whats gonna be ok'd here. arent the other forums unto themselves? i have a propcircle account, and i post there, and enjoy it (so far). i dont wonder if something is ok there and run it by the majority here. why should another board wonder if doing something here is ok?

    just.. cant wrap my head around the logic.

    chris
     
  18. Jet Beetle

    Jet Beetle Sr Member Gone but not forgotten.

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    Interested depending on price.
     
  19. slave1pilot

    slave1pilot Sr Member

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    [​IMG]
    Anyone else want some?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 8, 2018
  20. Hadleys Hope

    Hadleys Hope Active Member

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    So this is an interest thread? Got any pix?


    Paul
     
  21. KarlBud420

    KarlBud420 Well-Known Member

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    That was the best reply in this thread, bar none.

    Thanks for making me laugh Jet Beetle. :lol

    Bruce
     
  22. DrStranglove

    DrStranglove Sr Member

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    The problem as I see it is that both threads seem to ask, "Well, what does the RPF have to say about it?"

    It is easy to see that the RPF is the mother and father of most of our ways of viewing things. Whether we all agree or not with the individual answers that come out of the RPF, how this forum deals with problems is often held up to be the cannon of our little hobby. Maybe it is because of the RPF's position as the oldest and the largest Prop Forum there is, but I donÂ’t know. However, the RPF position as that lynch pin is clear.

    Hence the question. Since it is being debated, and I am an onlooker to both of the debates, and I am interested in the question, I thought I would ask.

    Amazingly enough, Street is the only one voicing displeasure bordering on physical pain it would seem at my asking the question.
     
  23. Gytheran

    Gytheran Sr Member

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    Agreed.

    I prefer a more direct approach. Go ahead and bite the bullet, buy the helmet, hydro-cast it up(hydrocal or hydrostone), vacuform about a dozen helmets, sell them at cost and see what happens. So far, the response has been overwhelmingly positive. Doc, I'll keep you updated.



































    ;)
     
  24. JediCarl

    JediCarl Well-Known Member

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    :p

    Hahahahahahhahaha. :lol

    By the way, me too. :p
     
  25. Clutch

    Clutch Master Member

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    Do two wrongs make a right? Would you do it only for financial gain? If AA stopped making helmets and never sold another one starting today, would it be ok then? If you recast his helmet, how do I know that you are not likely to recast other stuff? Recasters have sold out of production stuff and then turned around and used the profits to recast still in production stuff.
     
  26. voice in the crowd

    voice in the crowd Sr Member

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    Same here I can't grasp the logic. On what grounds is it ok to recast AA?

    As asked before can you answer why you should be allowed to recast AA? Because he isn't a member here? Because he isn't popular here? Because he has lied in the past?

    If you give a reason why it would be cool then surely the staff can base their answer on your reason.

    I think AA is a liar and a bit of a dick isn't really that great a reason to recast him :p

    Is it?

    Cheers Chris.
     
  27. JediCarl

    JediCarl Well-Known Member

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    Go ahead and do it. Let's see if LFL's legal team simply recasts their legal papers.

    :lol
     
  28. DrStranglove

    DrStranglove Sr Member

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    Just FYI, I have never sold anything here for financial gain.



    That said the other points are the best yet.
     
  29. DrStranglove

    DrStranglove Sr Member

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    In case no one caught it I am being rhetorical. I have no plans to produce anything at all. I am just soliciting opinions from my fellow members.
     
  30. Gytheran

    Gytheran Sr Member

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    On what grounds is it OK to recast GF, or DP, or Jeff(the mysterious vader guy)?

    It's OK to recast GF(AA did it)
    It's OK to recast DP
    It's OK to recast LFL
    It's OK to recast Jeff(GH did it)
    It's not OK to recast AA??.??
     
  31. exoray

    exoray Master Member

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    There are recast items offered up almost every week in the junkyard and no one bats an eye at them... Vader? Fett? Han in Carbo? Bikerscout? Just to name a few...

    IMO it all boils down to getting the swag, simple supply and demand, if the supply has run it's course or a "good enough" current replica doesn't exist the memberships turns a blind eye to the recasting to easily obtain the "quality" items...
     
  32. DrStranglove

    DrStranglove Sr Member

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    In case no one caught it I am being rhetorical. I have no plans to produce anything at all. I am just soliciting opinions from my fellow members.
     
  33. hydin

    hydin Sr Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    it just strikes me as an odd question. i felt the same way when i saw it on propcircle.

    maybe its cause i view each board as a seperate entity, complete all by itself.

    yea, the RPF is a big board, and its a fun place, but its not what runs the hobby.

    i guess the best analogy i can think of is "if i know i cant shoplift at wal mart, i havent been told i cant shoplift at wal greens, or kmart. maybe ill go there and itll be ok.". thats just for the various boards wondering wtf goes on here.

    for the recasting bit,

    if i go strictly by the COC,
    AA aint a member. recast all you want. however, since TE isnt a member anymore, should you recast his stuff and offer it up as well? MR is... sort of a member here. so no recasting of MR's stuff.

    it boils down to respect moreso than anything else. the only other thing i can really imagine as "important" to it is that we get some "official" traffic through here. considering AA just went into court over this same issue with LFL, if you DID recast AAs helmets and offered em up you would be painting a big bullseye on your buttocks for the LFL guys to come peon smash you.

    maybe it shouldnt be if you CAN, but if you SHOULD.

    thats just me though :)

    chris
     
  34. voice in the crowd

    voice in the crowd Sr Member

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    Yeah I understood that your question was theoretical. I never thought for a minute you intended to actually go through with it.

    It is obvious from post 1 you are challenging flaws in the RPF COC and I just wondered what part of the recasting rules of the COC you are challenging?

    Are there specifics you feel are wrong or are you just challenging the whole recasting part of the COC?

    Cheers Chris.
     
  35. DrStranglove

    DrStranglove Sr Member

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    These two summed it up best what I feel is an inherant flaw in our system here. (Which is in a way my point.)


     
  36. JoeR

    JoeR Sr Member

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    I can see why Dr S started this thread.

    The rules here just don't stand up to any in depth scrutiny.

    Also how come Meatsocks can be sold regularly in the JY, and when Keith shows pics of a helmet that MAY be a copy of someone elses work everyone jumps on him?

    There certainly seems to be a lack of consistency on this board.

    Joe
     
  37. JRX

    JRX Well-Known Member

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    ... I see it that way :

    Our hobby (or that of many here including me) is to collect Star Wars Helmets,
    Weapons ... well all that Prop-stuff - :D

    Without Re-Casters at some point hardly anyone of us would own anything.

    Somewhere (with the good stuff) it all started with some guy at LFL making
    a mold, sneaking it out, giving it to a friend or selling it, and from there on
    that Casting made its way through many hands and molds and made a lot of us
    very very happy - ;)

    We wouldn't have a lot of great Props if there wouldn't have been people who
    took the risk to copy either some original stuff, or others who got a copy and
    thought that more people should deserve to get a copy of "whatever".

    I don't believe any Vader Fan would say "no" if he was offered for example a
    copy of DJ's ANH Helmet - nobody would call him a re-caster - no way, instead
    everybody would stand in line, drooling to get a copy of his Helmet - that's how
    it would be.

    Not everybody has the $$$ to get the SDS Helmets, and soon they'll be no longer
    available I believe ... sad for those who really wanted one ...

    If a Helmet is no longer produced by the original maker, or it is so * limited
    that only 10 or 15 people in the world have one (like the Elstree ROTJ Helmet)
    I don't really have a problem with people who make (good) copys available.

    But if the Helmet is still available (and halfways easy to access) from its original
    (or best known as that) source, I see the problem and the conflikt - that's were
    re-casting sucks - like when someone copys Howards great Headsculpts even
    though he is still selling them.

    I believe the "Motives" often play a big role in that whole re-casting thing.

    There are people that don't only do it for the money, but also because they
    want to share their own treasures with others ...

    So ... can you re-cast AA's Helmets ??? ... when he's out of business and nobody
    can get them anymore, why not (legal stuff totally aside here) ???
     
  38. AnsonJames

    AnsonJames Sr Member

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    It would be great to get a nice copy of the prototype helmet - shame AA got rid of the serrated tube though. :lol
     
  39. Star Wars Helmets

    Star Wars Helmets Sr Member

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    Is this the start of another Battlezone/Prop Ed/T4BB "lets try to cause trouble at the RPF, and hassle the mods" periods like last year?

    I suspect the next topic will be "Bring back Jhyphen - He's innocent."

    :lol :lol :lol

    Cheers

    Jez
     
  40. Darth Domain

    Darth Domain Well-Known Member

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    Just wondering, when Rubies have stopped production of their supreme edition lid, can i recast it (in a modified form of course).
    I'm confused as to what the rules are with the R word
     
  41. Too Much Garlic

    Too Much Garlic Master Member

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    Personally I would say no.

    The whole recasting problem rests in the fact that LFL refuses to produce and sell top quality items (MR excluded). They, or the licencee holders that make and sell the items, make inferior items that don't match the originals. If people hadn't recast the originals, then none of us would ever have gotten anything that looked and was exactly like the original... isn't that the heart of the problem?

    But I guess, if LFL began making and selling helmets and props cast from the real things, then all the people making fan made items will lose their sales. Then there would be no need for recasting if LFL stopped refusing to offer cast from the real deal and stopped those ludicrous demands to alter the appearence of the items being sold, so that they are different from the originals.

    Yes, I agree that it should be possible to determine whether a prop is the real screen used item or a new product... but this deliberate altering of what is offered is just beyond me. And the limited edition nonsense is just annoying too... but I guess the really good items are only for those with money and who mostly live in the USA.

    Okay... I guess I ranted enough. Recasting is bad... no matter how you look at it... and I guess I am bad for wanting items bad enough that I am willing to buy recast items.

    I guess... instead of asking about recasting... why don't we turn the attention towards LFL and begin demanding them to offer the real deal and not some doctored crap?

    That is already being recast.
     
  42. Darth Domain

    Darth Domain Well-Known Member

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    The rubies lid is being recast now, or has been already?
     
  43. Too Much Garlic

    Too Much Garlic Master Member

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    I've seen a few offered on eBay. But of course, they could simply have been repainted and modified original Rubies Supremes... I'm not sure. But I think it is very reasonable to assume that it has been recast already.
     
  44. Darth Domain

    Darth Domain Well-Known Member

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    So what about this scenario. Someone has taken the rubies lid, modded it to high hell, then recast this.
    Due to the work they would have done on it to make it look completely different from the original, would they not just be making a cast of their work and not a complete recast of the supreme per se (if you get my meaning).
     
  45. GundamZeppelin

    GundamZeppelin Sr Member

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    I dont think anyone would care if you recasted a rubies now lol. As to most dont see it as worth recasting. I was thinking of that myself for a while but i also saw it as somthing that would need a ton of work put in to the face plate, witch i have done befor it's no big deal but the dome is the real problem (A new system for holding the dome in place would be needed)n if rubies stoped making them it would take at lest 10 year for people to give enough of a crap to want one. Rubies isn't held in the high'est respect with prop collectors

    And you would also have to take into account DP CA and there recast, and DP DLX as well as recasts of thoese, as well as other great helmets fan made on the market now and in the future. Would anyone want a recast of a rubies? even in fiberglass
    the work on the helmet would have to be perfect.
    that would mean alot of trial and error and ton's of money lost on working on makeing the rubies look worth wild?
    Even if you did a nice recast most people that know vader lid's would say "its just recast of a rubies"
    I myself have spent well over 200 bucks and countless hours trying to make a rubies look like an ANH i put it up on ebay hoping to break even to start work on a revel helmet and only made 100 off it.

    now that i look at it i should have just got a nice fiberglass kit :cry
     
  46. Darth Domain

    Darth Domain Well-Known Member

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    reason i'm using the rubies as an example is to try and get my head around the rules of recast.
    Now DP held the license, many casts have been made and distributed on E-Bay and here in JY, these are reacasts of Don Post's work, not the person who took the DP piece then copied it. So, why could someone not recast AA.
    It seems that anyone who is in disagreement with recasts should never buy a DP etc.
    It would seem there are no rules about Recast, the goalposts seem to move with regards to where the boundries lie
    It seems more of a moral judgement thing as opposed to hard, fast rules.
     
  47. TK765

    TK765 Sr Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    As it doesn't match the screen helmets.....why would you want to???? :lol
     
  48. Too Much Garlic

    Too Much Garlic Master Member

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    Unless you have completely sealed the whole original helmet with your modifications, so nothing of the original Rubies is visible, can you call it your own work.

    Modding a helmet and then selling it would be okay, but to mod a helmet only to make copies is imo not okay, since you have taken someone elses work as a base to make your version. If you made it from scratch, that would be a whole different matter, since no other company and/or person have had any of their products used in the creation of your helmet.

    I would still say no, but this is only my opinion.
     
  49. Star Wars Helmets

    Star Wars Helmets Sr Member

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    And the GF, DP, Altmanns, Rubies etc etc, did? :p

    :lol
     
  50. Darth Domain

    Darth Domain Well-Known Member

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    Totally confusing and i would say hipocritical the stance on recast (refer to my DP post above)
     
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