Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice

You do realise that while batman doesn't kill, he's got no problem making bleed street thugs... Multiple fractures, cuts and bruises... Throwing batarangs at perps, which are nothing more than razor sharp bat shaped shurikens that sometimes have explosive strapped to them. Most of them end up in the hospital after meeting the bat. That's who batman is in the comics, he's not really a nice guy. And he seems to enjoy it even. Adam West batman has nothing to do with current batman, nor original batman.
 
The writing just made me groan:[/SIZE]
“The world has been caught up with what he can do that no one has asked what he should do.”
“Absolute power corrupts absolutely…”
“This is how it starts… the fever.The feeling of powerlessness that turns good men cruel.”

See, that was one of the things I liked about the trailer. If you haven't read it, go read The Dark Knight Returns by Frank Miller. Those voices, some of them anyway, definitely come across as talking news heads discussing the "real world" implications of Superman's existence. This is exactly the kind of thing that would happen if Superman were real and suddenly showed up one day. We are dealing with the aftermath of MoS and the near destruction of an entire city. This is not the established and beloved hero we are used to.
 
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See, that was one of the things I liked about the trailer. If you haven't read it, go read The Dark Knight Returns by Frank Miller. Those voices, some of them anyway, definitely come across as talking news heads discussing the "real world" implications of Superman's existence. This is exactly the kind of thing that would happen if Superman were real and suddenly showed up one day. We are dealing with the aftermath of MoS and the near destruction of an entire city. This is not the established and beloved hero we are used to.
I bought my original copies of The Dark Knight Returns in 1986 when I was in High School as well as Miller's Daredevil run starting in 1979. Bought them all when they were new. In fact DD #158 was when his artwork caught my attention.

I don't have a problem with the actual premise of the film. The writing reflected in those lines is just bad.



If you want to find a better representation of Miller on screen then take a look at the Daredevil Netflix series (or Sin City or 300). Still, BvS isn't out and I will be happy to eat my words if the final product is great. But the trailer suggests otherwise.
 
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See, that was one of the things I liked about the trailer. If you haven't read it, go read The Dark Knight Returns by Frank Miller. Those voices, some of them anyway, definitely come across as talking news heads discussing the "real world" implications of Superman's existence. This is exactly the kind of thing that would happen if Superman were real and suddenly showed up one day. We are dealing with the aftermath of MoS and the near destruction of an entire city. This is not the established and beloved hero we are used to.

Which is why I'm eyerolling at it.

Look, The Dark Knight Returns was revolutionary in the 1980s because it took established and -- to that point -- unchallenged tropes in DC's comics setting and deconstructed them. It was and remains amazing...in its context. But we aren't in that context at this point, and the era that TDKR and Watchmen ushered in is pretty well established nowadays. There's nothing groundbreaking about the grimdark approach to this material anymore. We're almost 30 years past when TDKR came out. Batman has been the Dark Knight in this modern take for a little less than 1/3 of his total existence. More, arguably, if you consider the tone of the original comics in context.

You know what I found utterly lacking in MoS and what I expect will be lacking in this film? Hope. Any sense of hope or faith in humanity, that it can be better than it is. Basically, the message of Superman. I get that they paid lip service to it in MoS with the Superman-as-***** nonsense, but I didn't get a sense of optimism out of Superman at all. To be honest, I'm basically just bored with and tired of the whole EVERYTHING IS DARK trope in these films. Yeah, in the real world, Superman would be feared and hated. Demagogues would turn him into a political football, and controversy would follow his every move.

If I wanted the real world, I wouldn't be watching a ****ing comic book movie. I appreciate an intelligent, mature, realistic take, but -- and maybe this is just my stage of life coming out here -- I think at a certain point, intelligent and mature can and should include some element of upbeat optimism in the face of grim adversity. I don't get any of that from this trailer, and it makes me look at this film and just...roll my eyes.

This tone has been done and done to death and done again after that. If I'm watching a Superman movie, I want it to feel more like the Flash TV show -- upbeat, hopeful, optimistic, good-hearted. Don't get me wrong. I like the grim 'n' gritty stuff too, but it needs to be leavened with some hope or it just gets...bleak. And boring. This film looks boring.
 
Apparently the footage shown is for international regions, the US domestic IMAX version will be little bit different.
 
Which is why I'm eyerolling at it.

(clipped)

I can understand what you are saying. Superman should have a more hopeful tone. And they did gloss over it in MoS and leaned more towards the cautious and fearful. Maybe they are planning to bring that feeling of hope out in the next Superman movie. But I still consider this a Batman movie that Superman just happens to be in, so I expect it to be darker. But I also think that other than MoS (which was not a great movie but still enjoyable), DC cannot make a good movie to save their life. And I think with the way they are sprinting to catch up to Marvel it's going to hurt them in the long run. But I digress. I'm hoping that there is more to this movie than that trailer shows because I do admit the trailer was not great. But I think it has potential. But then again Snyder could very easily screw it up.
 
I think Snyder is good at visuals and...that's about it. I question how interested he is in the writing. I thought Watchmen was quite good, but that's more due to Alan Moore's writing. All Snyder did was not really screw it up and translate it from page to screen which, no surprise, lost something in the translation (Moore's always been right about that). Tolerable losses, but losses nonetheless.

MoS was soulless. This one feels the same. And I think a lot of that has to do with a sense that DC is just throwing movies out there with the theory that that's how you build a franchise. Marvel's films, even their weaker ones, have had some kind of generally upbeat quality to them. I think that's a big part of why they've been well received. DC's still coasting on the success of TDK which, while a terrific film, was not the be-all/end-all of comics. But they don't seem able to innovate past that, other than jam packing a similarly grim'n'gritty film with new characters.

So, yeah, I'm not optimistic about this film, nor am I particularly interested. Which is a shame, because I think DC's characters are terrific characters who are consistently poorly managed, except on the small screen so far. Meanwhile, Marvel is making inroads into the small screen, and is kicking DC's ass at the theaters. Films like what this trailer suggests we'll be seeing are why.
 
Man, I'm just gonna step out of this thread...I feel like either your personality/values/inclinations lean toward dark and brooding, pessimistic and cynical, or they don't. And there's no point in trying to convince the other faction. I like old 70s World's Finest comics as much as the next guy, but cinematically, I wants me some GRIMDARK :lol Watchmen was pretty much flawless, and MoS clearly had the seeds of greatness, despite being hobbled by some flaws. I bet ZS pulls it off bigtime with BvS. If I'm wrong, I shall give myself one hundred lashes.
 
Oh, don't misunderstand me. I appreciate the grimdark stuff in the right context. In the realm of Batman? Sure! I'm digging it on Arrow, too. But you need more than JUST grimdark, and Supes has never, ever been about that stuff. Guys like Superman and The Flash have always been beacons of hope (hence why they get zapped into the Blue Lantern Corps during Blackest Night).

So, doing THIS film as all grim Frank Miller Dark Knight Returns stuff...I dunno. I saw that movie. I saw a whole trilogy of that movie. I saw it again, kinda, in Man of Steel. What else ya got, DC? I guess what I'm getting at is that it seems like DC is kind of a one-trick pony in the film arena. They do grimdarkbatmangrimgritty stuff. And...uh....that's it. Marvel, on the other hand, has gone dark at times, but shows far, far more complexity and variety in its films.

As for Watchmen, yeah, it was about as good a translation as you could want to the big screen. But Alan Moore was right that you just miss so much when you don't have the printed page in front of you, at least with that series. Watchmen as a comic series is incredibly layered and detailed. You can study the individual frames and they just have a ton of info in them and convey a ton. The film does a lot of that, but it's just...not the same. Not in a bad way, but it lost something in the translation that I think is really worth preserving. That said, Snyder's translation is as faithful as one could hope for. I even give him a pass on the ending, owing to the realities of film audiences. But even that, I think, lost a LOT of the more subtle aspects of the comic and the social commentary.
 
That's exactly it. Superman has always been the symbol of hope. The light in all darkness. This film looks like Superman is consumed in all the darkness. The suit color represents as such and the feel/environment suggests he is shrouded in all the darkness of the world. He doesn't stand out to me as that hero we need in these times.

I have been a huge Batman and Superman fan all my life, but have found myself not liking the approach DC is blanketly making in their feature films now. Batman has always been pretty dark, but not the typical Superman everyone knows as who he is inside.

Being a person who likes to watch movies as an escape from reality, I welcome these types of films with open arms. There's too many problems in life (violence, loss, tragedy) to be wanting to stay in that same environment all the time. We need an escape once in a while.
 
Oh, don't misunderstand me. I appreciate the grimdark stuff in the right context. In the realm of Batman? Sure! I'm digging it on Arrow, too. But you need more than JUST grimdark, and Supes has never, ever been about that stuff. Guys like Superman and The Flash have always been beacons of hope (hence why they get zapped into the Blue Lantern Corps during Blackest Night).

So, doing THIS film as all grim Frank Miller Dark Knight Returns stuff...I dunno. I saw that movie. I saw a whole trilogy of that movie. I saw it again, kinda, in Man of Steel. What else ya got, DC? I guess what I'm getting at is that it seems like DC is kind of a one-trick pony in the film arena. They do grimdarkbatmangrimgritty stuff. And...uh....that's it. Marvel, on the other hand, has gone dark at times, but shows far, far more complexity and variety in its films.

As for Watchmen, yeah, it was about as good a translation as you could want to the big screen. But Alan Moore was right that you just miss so much when you don't have the printed page in front of you, at least with that series. Watchmen as a comic series is incredibly layered and detailed. You can study the individual frames and they just have a ton of info in them and convey a ton. The film does a lot of that, but it's just...not the same. Not in a bad way, but it lost something in the translation that I think is really worth preserving. That said, Snyder's translation is as faithful as one could hope for. I even give him a pass on the ending, owing to the realities of film audiences. But even that, I think, lost a LOT of the more subtle aspects of the comic and the social commentary.

Oh, I'm not saying Watchmen is better than the comic. I'm just saying I feel ZS pulled it off. I can't imagine a more satisfying adaptation, but it hardly trumps the original! That would be blasphemy!

I hear what you (and I think other fans) are saying, that there is a place for optimism, and Supes has always occupied that place. But I think it's really interesting to see him used in other ways, to be reinterpreted and recontextualized. I think "boy scout" Superman/Clark Kent is kinda dull. I really do get that fans don't want an angsty Superman. But I don't LIKE all-American nice guy Superman. I think he's a lie. I think all that mom/apple pie/patriotism/little league routine is so much propaganda. I WANT a tarnished, cynical Superman. That's why this trailer looks so mind blowing to me. If I WANTED "truth, justice, American way" I'd be horrified by it. But that schtick makes me roll my eyes. I'm coming from a very different place, and so it's inevitable that I'll want different things.

Yes, there are OTHER heroes who can meet this need. They don't have to "corrupt" Superman. But there's something uniquely symbolic about Supes. I think it's good to see our primary national hero reimagined to represent a more libertarian, post-Patriot Act/NSA/Snowden (eeek, I'm skirting politics, I know!) age. It worked for Cap in Winter Soldier, brilliantly.
 
...Yeah, in the real world, Superman would be feared and hated. Demagogues would turn him into a political football, and controversy would follow his every move...
And that's the approach they seem to be taking with this incarnation of the Superman story--he's an impervious being (as far as humans know) from another world somewhere in the universe, and even though he appears to be in favor of protecting humans and Earth he's still an alien. The battle in MoS caused a lot of damage, so he hasn't exactly been welcomed to the planet with open arms the way he was in the comic books because they (the humans) are still uncertain of his true motives. And I think this explains Batman's motivation for the showdown--he wants Superman to know he can be defeated if it becomes necessary. This is the reason they introduced Kryptonite into the Adventures of Superman radio show, and subsequently the comic books, in the 1940s--a character that's impervious to everything is boring because there's no concern (from the reader/viewer) for his/her safety. So they had to give Superman an "Achilles' heel" to show that he could be in danger if he went up against the right (or wrong) opponent.

This is yet another reboot of the Superman franchise and we're still in the "getting to know each other" phase with regards to the relationship between Kal-El/Superman and humans. And we humans are a rather distrusting lot, so they're examining that aspect of the relationship. By the end of this movie I'm guessing Bats and Supes will have a much better understanding of each other, but they have to walk through the mud to get to the other side first.
 
The trailer is the best thing iv seen since watchmen! the music, the tone, the voice everything is perfect but that's just my opinion everybody has a different idea of what batman should be.
 
See, I think you need a balance between the dark grim Batman and the optimistic Superman. That doesn't mean Supes needs to be the campy version from the 1950s. He can still be tough, he can be serious, but he has to show some sense of believing in the goodness and potential of humanity. I didn't really get that in the last film. I'm not saying he viewed humanity as brutish or barbaric, but he seemed...I dunno. Just like a strong dude struggling with his own abilities. Almost a reluctant hero rather than an enthusiastic one who believes in humanity.

Maybe the film will transition to that, but I thought they should've done that in the last film and maybe shortened the punch fest at the end by 10-15 min.


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See, I think you need a balance between the dark grim Batman and the optimistic Superman. That doesn't mean Supes needs to be the campy version from the 1950s. He can still be tough, he can be serious, but he has to show some sense of believing in the goodness and potential of humanity. I didn't really get that in the last film. I'm not saying he viewed humanity as brutish or barbaric, but he seemed...I dunno. Just like a strong dude struggling with his own abilities. Almost a reluctant hero rather than an enthusiastic one who believes in humanity.
I don't disagree. But in MoS Kal-El/Superman was just coming to terms with who he is, and then Zod and his cronies showed up. I guess the producers didn't have faith in an ending without a big battle.

Maybe the film will transition to that, but I thought they should've done that in the last film and maybe shortened the punch fest at the end by 10-15 min.
30 minutes would be even better. :D
 
At 40 seconds in, the soldiers kneeling in front of superman have the house of El symbol on their shoulder or am I seeing things ? While not blown away, I'm very much intrigued. But the trailer does make Superman look like the bad guy here, like it is seen by Bruce. Maybe the next trailer will make Batman look like the bad guy, seen by Clark. Then a third one from Luthor's point of view who despises both ?

Edit : and at the 1:20 mark, Batman's holding a sniper rifle, a PSG-1 or something with a similar bulky stock. Wether he found it or he's going to use it, we'll see, but another nod to TDKR.
 
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At 40 seconds in, the soldiers kneeling in front of superman have the house of El symbol on their shoulder or am I seeing things ? While not blown away, I'm very much intrigued. But the trailer does make Superman look like the bad guy here, like it is seen by Bruce. Maybe the next trailer will make Batman look like the bad guy, seen by Clark. Then a third one from Luthor's point of view who despises both ?

I like that. Would be interesting to see for sure

Reel


Edit.

I'm seeing that too.

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I'm not saying he viewed humanity as brutish or barbaric, but he seemed...I dunno. Just like a strong dude struggling with his own abilities. Almost a reluctant hero rather than an enthusiastic one who believes in humanity.

No. He was a bully. Good guys shouldn't show the world they're on their side by causing further destruction and telling them that it's his way or the highway.

Superman: Look. I'm here to help... but it has to be on my own terms. And you have to convince Washington of that.
General Swanwick: Even if I were willing to try, what makes you think they'd listen?
Superman: I don't know, General. Guess I'll just have to trust you.​

Our hero ladies and gentlemen. He won't even talk to the leaders of Washington, or to the people of the world (Which was something Zod did) about his intentions.
 
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